Some basic questions for Tyler

Quoted message said:

Tyler stated that he left Phonak (amicably)in order to give them half

a

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chance at getting reinstated to the Pro Tour. Since they were
subsequently booted, and they supposedly "supported" his position of
innocense, would it not make sense for the two entities to combine
their resources and fight the case together? If they share a common
cause, why are they not teaming up?

I think Tyler's camp has raised enough "reasonable doubt" points,

that

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if he were fighting this in the US, he could probably have the

results

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tossed-out. The fact that Tyler and Phonak have not joined forces to
fight the issue makes me think that one of the two must not have

faith

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in the other...or there is way more to this case.

I think that Phonak has learned it's lesson. Even if they had an
ironclad case and won it, basically no contest the UCI would make their
life hell. I think it would be even worse if a team managed to win a
decision against the UCI or ASO. The petty vindictiveness and arrogance
they've show is a pretty clear indicator of what they could be capable
of and it's not like there are a whole lot of viable options available
for teams that do [censored] them off. I'm not sure what if any recourse the
team would have in court after this started happening either, but I am
sure that the UCI in particular would outspend the team and drag it out
until the team ran out of cash to fight with.
Just my $.02
Bill C
Bill C

Bill C said:

I think that Phonak has learned it's lesson. Even if they had an
ironclad case and won it, basically no contest the UCI would make

their

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life hell.

Dumbass -

It's been coming clearer and clearer that Hamilton and Perez don't have
a case at all.

K. Gringioni.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Bill C said:

I think that Phonak has learned it's lesson. Even if they had an
ironclad case and won it, basically no contest the UCI would make

their

Quoted message said:

life hell.

Dumbass -

It's been coming clearer and clearer that Hamilton and Perez don't

have

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a case at all.

K. Gringioni.

Where did I indicate in the above message any opinion on whether I
thought they had a case or not. I was commenting on the attitude of the
UCI and ASO.
Reading is fundamental
Have a great night.
Bill C

Bill C said:

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Dumbass -

It's been coming clearer and clearer that Hamilton and Perez don't

have

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a case at all.

K. Gringioni.

Where did I indicate in the above message any opinion on whether I
thought they had a case or not. I was commenting on the attitude of

the

Quoted message said:

UCI and ASO.
Reading is fundamental

Dumbass -

I agree. Who cares about whether Tyler did drugs? More important is the
attitude of the UCI.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Bill C said:

Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

It's been coming clearer and clearer that Hamilton and Perez

don't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have

Quoted message said:

a case at all.

K. Gringioni.

Where did I indicate in the above message any opinion on whether I
thought they had a case or not. I was commenting on the attitude of

the

Quoted message said:

UCI and ASO.
Reading is fundamental

Dumbass -

I agree. Who cares about whether Tyler did drugs? More important is

the

Quoted message said:

attitude of the UCI.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Unbelievable. Talk about how to take a discussion off topic. You [censored]
about strawmen but routinely do this.

Quoted:
Tyler stated that he left Phonak (amicably)in order to give them half a
chance at getting reinstated to the Pro Tour. Since they were
subsequently booted, and they supposedly "supported" his position of
innocense, would it not make sense for the two entities to combine
their resources and fight the case together? If they share a common
cause, why are they not teaming up?
End Quote

This clearly is discussing Tylers relationship to Phonak, and
speculating as to why Phonak is not partnering in Tyler's defense. He
puts forth the argument that Phonak believes that Tyler is guilty and
that is why they are not working with him.

Quoted:

I think Tyler's camp has raised enough "reasonable doubt" points, that
if he were fighting this in the US, he could probably have the results
tossed-out. The fact that Tyler and Phonak have not joined forces to
fight the issue makes me think that one of the two must not have faith
in the other...or there is way more to this case.
End Quote.

Here he staes it very clearly.

The point I raised is that there may very well be another reason for
Phonak to have avoided this, and Tyler made that point when he chose to
distance himself from the team after the childish vindictive reaction
that the UCI had towards Phonak and himself, not because he had been
proven guilty, but because he had dared to question their methodology
and accuracy. Considering the UCI's track record for arbitrary actions
I feel that this is a more than valid conclusion that needed to be
discussed as to the decisions Phonak was making.
What I was discussing has absolutely no basis in whether Tyler is
guilty or not, or even whether his team believes him to be guilty. It
is purely based on how the UCI has dealt with anyone who has chosen to
oppose or even question them.
If you are unable to seperate the two threads of the discussion and
consider them as seperate facets of the same picture then you are a
whole lot simpler than I thought. Either that or you are purposely
being obtuse to get a rise out of me.
You try to bully people intellectually and that's your privilege but
that does not impress me.
Next time you threaten to leave a discussion don't let the door hit
you in the ass on the way out as far as I'm concerned.
I do enjoy sparring with you because it forces me to be on my toes and
double check things carefully so I'm glad your back.
Bill C

Everyone has focused so much on the validity of each party's arguments.
No one had ever addressed the reasons why two entities with obviously
common interests would not get back together and ally themselves.
Phonak has clearly abandoned the fight and has taken their lumps.
Hamilton has indicated that he'll fight to the last breath of his bank
account, yet has taken virtually no premptive actions (as of yet).

So Bill, if you feel that Phonak surrendered out of pure fear, do you
feel that any team who picks up a potentially vindicated Hamilton would
be committing suicide with the UCI?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Everyone has focused so much on the validity of each party's arguments.
No one had ever addressed the reasons why two entities with obviously
common interests would not get back together and ally themselves.
Phonak has clearly abandoned the fight and has taken their lumps.
Hamilton has indicated that he'll fight to the last breath of his bank
account, yet has taken virtually no premptive actions (as of yet).

<snip>

Wouldn't the different stances of Hamilton and Phonak indicate that,
though they both seek the same goal­that is, a semblance of
reinstatement­the respective strategies employed for its attainment are
incompatible?

Tyler has no options. Regardless of whether he did or didn't dope, the
only recourse to regaining credibility and, if not immediate then,
early reinstatement is to assert his innocence, challenge the test
results and lock horns with the UCI.

If Phonak was to follow suit and was vindicated along with Tyler, it
may prove to be a Pyhrric victory. Doubtless, the team's sponsor would
not favor its marketing dollars contributing to public battles with the
UCI­that's not a savvy public relations strategy. And the move would
hardly ingratiate it to the UCI or guarantee a place on the Pro Tour.

But, it has the option of mitigating the damage by cooperating with,
and submitting to, the UCI. And it has: Adios Tyler, Urs and Alvaro.
(What this indicates about the team's complicity in doping or whether
doping occurred at all, I leave to you to decide.)

Phonak is tending to its interests in a realistic and pragmatic
fashion­like any business it seeks to minimize its liabilities and
maximize its assets. Association with Hamilton is a liability to be
discouraged; while the sanction of the UCI is an asset to foster.

luke

Quoted message said:

Everyone has focused so much on the validity of each party's

arguments.

Quoted message said:

No one had ever addressed the reasons why two entities with obviously
common interests would not get back together and ally themselves.
Phonak has clearly abandoned the fight and has taken their lumps.
Hamilton has indicated that he'll fight to the last breath of his

bank

Quoted message said:

account, yet has taken virtually no premptive actions (as of yet).

So Bill, if you feel that Phonak surrendered out of pure fear, do you
feel that any team who picks up a potentially vindicated Hamilton

would

Quoted message said:

be committing suicide with the UCI?

I'm not sure that it would be suicide but I think that their lives
would be made a whole lot more difficult at best. The more I've thought
about this all the more I'm leaning towards Tyler knows he was nailed.
He's come up with a brilliant strategy for a worst case scenario IMO.
WADA and the UCI as organizational entities aren't real popular. They
both like to do things secretly, and are incredibly arrogant when
questioned. There was very little chance that either organization was
going to provide detailed information on the testing, even if it all
went well let alone after they screwed up the Olympic test. The more
detailed info they put out, the more likely someone might find a way
around it. So Tyler was smart enough to attack them. Since they screwed
up 25% of his samples they had in custody this is a perfect
oppourtuntiy to question their lab dscipline and chain of custody of
evidence. While the test may have been around forever, it is being used
in a new application with little verification and documentation
available for it's accuracy and reliability in this specific
application. Again that's more evidence they are unable, or unwilling
to provide in defense of the findings. Tyler does not seem unreasonable
in asking for all of this information since no one is in favor of
people being convicted because the prosecuting agency says "Your
Guilty" but refuses to validate it's case other than to get [censored]
at even being questioned.
So he has at least created large questions about the procedures
themselves, the way in which the samples and testing were carried out,
and the prevailing attitude of the organizations. As you said this will
be enough to keep the question open in everyone's mind even though he
may be as guilty as they come, and rightly so IMO. Given that he's
been a sympathetic figure who was never linked to any unethical
behavior in the past, and is now presenting himself as an underdog
fighting for justice from the bureaucracy he's positioned himself as
well as he could for the future.
Bill C

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Everyone has focused so much on the validity of each party's

arguments.

Quoted message said:

No one had ever addressed the reasons why two entities with obviously
common interests would not get back together and ally themselves.
Phonak has clearly abandoned the fight and has taken their lumps.
Hamilton has indicated that he'll fight to the last breath of his

bank

Quoted message said:

account, yet has taken virtually no premptive actions (as of yet).

So Bill, if you feel that Phonak surrendered out of pure fear, do you
feel that any team who picks up a potentially vindicated Hamilton

would

Quoted message said:

be committing suicide with the UCI?

I'm not sure that it would be suicide but I think that their lives
would be made a whole lot more difficult at best. The more I've thought
about this all the more I'm leaning towards Tyler knows he was nailed.
He's come up with a brilliant strategy for a worst case scenario IMO.
WADA and the UCI as organizational entities aren't real popular. They
both like to do things secretly, and are incredibly arrogant when
questioned. There was very little chance that either organization was
going to provide detailed information on the testing, even if it all
went well let alone after they screwed up the Olympic test. The more
detailed info they put out, the more likely someone might find a way
around it. So Tyler was smart enough to attack them. Since they screwed
up 25% of his samples they had in custody this is a perfect
oppourtuntiy to question their lab dscipline and chain of custody of
evidence. While the test may have been around forever, it is being used
in a new application with little verification and documentation
available for it's accuracy and reliability in this specific
application. Again that's more evidence they are unable, or unwilling
to provide in defense of the findings. Tyler does not seem unreasonable
in asking for all of this information since no one is in favor of
people being convicted because the prosecuting agency says "Your
Guilty" but refuses to validate it's case other than to get [censored]
at even being questioned.

Unless you're being held as a prisoner at Camp Delta. That's exactly what
the US government is arguing to the Federal Courts. As for Tyler, he will
get the materials he seeks before his hearing. There is a "discovery"
schedule that provides for it.
Does anyone know when his hearing is being held in Denver? It was supposed
to be held this month.

Quoted message said:

So he has at least created large questions about the procedures
themselves, the way in which the samples and testing were carried out,
and the prevailing attitude of the organizations. As you said this will
be enough to keep the question open in everyone's mind even though he
may be as guilty as they come, and rightly so IMO. Given that he's
been a sympathetic figure who was never linked to any unethical
behavior in the past,

Don't forget the Dr. Prentis Steffen allegations.

and is now presenting himself as an underdog

Quoted message said:

fighting for justice from the bureaucracy he's positioned himself as
well as he could for the future.
Bill C

B Lafferty said:

Quoted message said:

Unless you're being held as a prisoner at Camp Delta. That's exactly what
the US government is arguing to the Federal Courts.

inter arma silent leges

lol