Wheel/Rim Creaking

Joe Riel said:

I have been plagued by a noisy rear-wheel for a few years. Finally, I
got around to investigating it. The noise, a creak, occurs as the
rear wheel turns over a particular spot on the rim. I can more or
less reproduce the sound by applying a lateral force to the rim. The
sound seems to come from the nipple/rim interface. I see no cracks in
the rim (though I haven't yet looked at the inside of the rim). I
added oil around the holes in the rim, but that didn't have any
noticeable effect.

Any ideas on how I could silence this? The rim is structurally sound,
so I'd rather not replace it, but will if that is the only solution.

Before you get a knowledgeable reply, try a drop of oil at the spoke/nipple
AND spoke hub interfaces -- and maybe at a spoke/spoke crossing contact
point, too.

Bill "hates creaks" S.

Bill Sornson said:

Joe Riel said:

I have been plagued by a noisy rear-wheel for a few years. Finally, I
got around to investigating it. The noise, a creak, occurs as the
rear wheel turns over a particular spot on the rim. I can more or
less reproduce the sound by applying a lateral force to the rim. The
sound seems to come from the nipple/rim interface. I see no cracks in
the rim (though I haven't yet looked at the inside of the rim). I
added oil around the holes in the rim, but that didn't have any
noticeable effect.

Any ideas on how I could silence this? The rim is structurally sound,
so I'd rather not replace it, but will if that is the only solution.

Before you get a knowledgeable reply, try a drop of oil at the spoke/nipple
AND spoke hub interfaces -- and maybe at a spoke/spoke crossing contact
point, too.

Thanks.

On thinking about this I came up with a fix. First, I isolated, by
laterally flexing the rim, the spokes that appear to be causing the
noise. Then I twisted the nipples back and forth a small amount to
reseat them. The noise disappeared. Should have tried that a long
time ago.

Joe

Bill Sornson said:

Joe Riel said:

I have been plagued by a noisy rear-wheel for a few years. Finally, I
got around to investigating it. The noise, a creak, occurs as the
rear wheel turns over a particular spot on the rim. I can more or
less reproduce the sound by applying a lateral force to the rim. The
sound seems to come from the nipple/rim interface. I see no cracks in
the rim (though I haven't yet looked at the inside of the rim). I
added oil around the holes in the rim, but that didn't have any
noticeable effect.

Any ideas on how I could silence this? The rim is structurally sound,
so I'd rather not replace it, but will if that is the only solution.

Before you get a knowledgeable reply, try a drop of oil at the spoke/nipple
AND spoke hub interfaces -- and maybe at a spoke/spoke crossing contact
point, too.

Thanks.

On thinking about this I came up with a fix. First, I isolated, by
laterally flexing the rim, the spokes that appear to be causing the
noise. Then I twisted the nipples back and forth a small amount to
reseat them. The noise disappeared. Should have tried that a long
time ago.

Joe

Joe Riel said:

I have been plagued by a noisy rear-wheel for a few years. Finally,

I

Quoted message said:

got around to investigating it. The noise, a creak, occurs as the
rear wheel turns over a particular spot on the rim. I can more or
less reproduce the sound by applying a lateral force to the rim. The
sound seems to come from the nipple/rim interface. I see no cracks

in

Quoted message said:

the rim (though I haven't yet looked at the inside of the rim). I
added oil around the holes in the rim, but that didn't have any
noticeable effect.

Any ideas on how I could silence this? The rim is structurally

sound,

Quoted message said:

so I'd rather not replace it, but will if that is the only solution.

Joe

Joe:

Instead of lubing the nipples at the rim, take the wheel to someone who
builds wheels - or do it yourself - and have them check the spoke
tension. I bet you have a loose spoke. Lubing will address the
symptom, not the disease in the case of a loose spoke and perpetuate
imbalanced spoke tension and increased chance of permanent rim damage.
App

Quoted post said:

Instead of lubing the nipples at the rim, take the wheel to someone who
builds wheels - or do it yourself - and have them check the spoke
tension. I bet you have a loose spoke. Lubing will address the
symptom, not the disease in the case of a loose spoke and perpetuate
imbalanced spoke tension and increased chance of permanent rim damage.

No loose spokes, I checked. While attempting to locate the problem I
used a stethoscope to listen for the creak. It didn't really help,
but it was interesting to listen to the plucked spokes through it.
For those who have a hard to distinguishing tones, a stethoscope makes
them a lot clearer. Just hold the transmitter against the tire and
pluck away.

Joe

Quoted message said:

I have been plagued by a noisy rear-wheel for a few years. Finally, I
got around to investigating it. The noise, a creak, occurs as the
rear wheel turns over a particular spot on the rim. I can more or
less reproduce the sound by applying a lateral force to the rim. The
sound seems to come from the nipple/rim interface. I see no cracks in
the rim (though I haven't yet looked at the inside of the rim). I
added oil around the holes in the rim, but that didn't have any
noticeable effect.

Any ideas on how I could silence this? The rim is structurally sound,
so I'd rather not replace it, but will if that is the only solution.

It's not a Mavic Open Pro is it? There were quite a large number of those
that had a nasty creaking issue, for which you could temporarily cure with
some lube in the right place, but it would always come back fairly soon. No
fix other than rim replacement. Usually it would first show up after a ride
in the rain and subsequent drying cycle.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

"Joe Riel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been plagued by a noisy rear-wheel for a few years. Finally, I
got around to investigating it. The noise, a creak, occurs as the
rear wheel turns over a particular spot on the rim. I can more or
less reproduce the sound by applying a lateral force to the rim. The
sound seems to come from the nipple/rim interface. I see no cracks in
the rim (though I haven't yet looked at the inside of the rim). I
added oil around the holes in the rim, but that didn't have any
noticeable effect.

Any ideas on how I could silence this? The rim is structurally sound,
so I'd rather not replace it, but will if that is the only solution.

Joe

Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles said:

From: "Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <[email hidden]>
Subject: Re: Wheel/Rim Creaking
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:11:03 GMT
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180

Quoted message said:

I have been plagued by a noisy rear-wheel for a few years. Finally, I
got around to investigating it. The noise, a creak, occurs as the
rear wheel turns over a particular spot on the rim. I can more or
less reproduce the sound by applying a lateral force to the rim. The
sound seems to come from the nipple/rim interface. I see no cracks in
the rim (though I haven't yet looked at the inside of the rim). I
added oil around the holes in the rim, but that didn't have any
noticeable effect.

Any ideas on how I could silence this? The rim is structurally sound,
so I'd rather not replace it, but will if that is the only solution.

It's not a Mavic Open Pro is it? There were quite a large number of those
that had a nasty creaking issue, for which you could temporarily cure with
some lube in the right place, but it would always come back fairly soon. No
fix other than rim replacement. Usually it would first show up after a ride
in the rain and subsequent drying cycle.

Funny you should ask. While cleaning the wheel (this was part of a
complete bike overhaul) I removed the wheel stickers---they always
looked ugly. So I don't know what it was (it came with the bike,
used). It is a Mavic, but don't recall whether it is an Open Pro,
though from a web search it certainly looks like it might be. It has
some sort of translucent plastic film on the inner surface
(i.e. surface facing the hub).

Joe

Bill Sornson said:

Joe Riel said:

I have been plagued by a noisy rear-wheel for a few years. Finally, I
got around to investigating it. The noise, a creak, occurs as the
rear wheel turns over a particular spot on the rim. I can more or
less reproduce the sound by applying a lateral force to the rim. The
sound seems to come from the nipple/rim interface. I see no cracks in
the rim (though I haven't yet looked at the inside of the rim). I
added oil around the holes in the rim, but that didn't have any
noticeable effect.

Any ideas on how I could silence this? The rim is structurally sound,
so I'd rather not replace it, but will if that is the only solution.

Before you get a knowledgeable reply, try a drop of oil at the spoke/nipple
AND spoke hub interfaces -- and maybe at a spoke/spoke crossing contact
point, too.

Bill "hates creaks" S.

Me too.

For what it's worth, I experienced a maddening click/creak which
increased with load (weight or braking) which I eventually traced to a
nearly invisible crack at a spoke hole. Lubricating the crack did help
somewhat until I replaced the rim. Although I'm skeptical that spokes
move at their crossings enough to produce sound, I did lubricate some
crossings to see if that had any effect on the noise. It did not.

Would anyone with some actual knowledge in metallurgy comment if crack
lubrication (no off-color jokes please) has any effect on crack
propagation?

--
Ted Bennett
Portland, OR

Joe Riel said:

I have been plagued by a noisy rear-wheel for a few years. Finally,
I got around to investigating it. The noise, a creak, occurs as the
rear wheel turns over a particular spot on the rim. I can more or
less reproduce the sound by applying a lateral force to the rim.
The sound seems to come from the nipple/rim interface. I see no
cracks in the rim (though I haven't yet looked at the inside of the
rim). I added oil around the holes in the rim, but that didn't have
any noticeable effect.

Quoted message said:

Any ideas on how I could silence this? The rim is structurally
sound, so I'd rather not replace it, but will if that is the only
solution.

In the long run, you can't, because this is most likely fretting noise
between spoke nipple and rusty eyelet. Rouge forms in the interface
and makes noise. A drop of oil in each eyelet-spoke nipple interface
gets rid of it but riding in rain brings it back. That's why
stainless eyelets in steel sockets in a double walled rim are ideal.

Soooo? We don't get no steenkin socketed rims no more, except rarely.
What a drag. At least I have a stash of MA-2 rims for now.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have been plagued by a noisy rear-wheel for a few years. Finally, I
got around to investigating it. The noise, a creak, occurs as the
rear wheel turns over a particular spot on the rim. I can more or
less reproduce the sound by applying a lateral force to the rim. The
sound seems to come from the nipple/rim interface. I see no cracks in
the rim (though I haven't yet looked at the inside of the rim). I
added oil around the holes in the rim, but that didn't have any
noticeable effect.

Any ideas on how I could silence this? The rim is structurally sound,
so I'd rather not replace it, but will if that is the only solution.

It's not a Mavic Open Pro is it? There were quite a large number of those
that had a nasty creaking issue, for which you could temporarily cure with
some lube in the right place, but it would always come back fairly soon.
No fix other than rim replacement. Usually it would first show up after a
ride in the rain and subsequent drying cycle.

Mike, I have a friend with clicking Open Pros. Is there more information
about this problem or its history?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

Joe Riel said:

I have been plagued by a noisy rear-wheel for a few years. Finally,
I got around to investigating it. The noise, a creak, occurs as the
rear wheel turns over a particular spot on the rim. I can more or
less reproduce the sound by applying a lateral force to the rim.
The sound seems to come from the nipple/rim interface. I see no
cracks in the rim (though I haven't yet looked at the inside of the
rim). I added oil around the holes in the rim, but that didn't have
any noticeable effect.

Quoted message said:

Any ideas on how I could silence this? The rim is structurally
sound, so I'd rather not replace it, but will if that is the only
solution.

In the long run, you can't, because this is most likely fretting noise
between spoke nipple and rusty eyelet. Rouge forms in the interface
and makes noise.

that's a "rouge" herring - simply can't be true because open pros were
notorious for this problem & their eyelets & sockets have been fully
stainless from day one.

Quoted message said:

A drop of oil in each eyelet-spoke nipple interface
gets rid of it but riding in rain brings it back. That's why
stainless eyelets in steel sockets in a double walled rim are ideal.

plain steel sockets rust. ma2 sockets rust. i know because i have some.

Quoted message said:

Soooo? We don't get no steenkin socketed rims no more, except rarely.

open pros are rare? how about torelli truimph's or masters? ambrosio?
fir? rigida? d.t? alex?

Quoted message said:

What a drag. At least I have a stash of MA-2 rims for now.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Joe Riel said:

I have been plagued by a noisy rear-wheel for a few years. Finally, I
got around to investigating it. The noise, a creak, occurs as the
rear wheel turns over a particular spot on the rim. I can more or
less reproduce the sound by applying a lateral force to the rim. The
sound seems to come from the nipple/rim interface. I see no cracks in
the rim (though I haven't yet looked at the inside of the rim). I
added oil around the holes in the rim, but that didn't have any
noticeable effect.

Any ideas on how I could silence this? The rim is structurally sound,
so I'd rather not replace it, but will if that is the only solution.

Joe

well, the older open pros used to be bad for this, the modern ones, not.
i did slack & retrue an open pro wheel with this problem one time, &
the noise stopped. depends how bad you're bothered by it. the often
recommended practice of using oil on the eyelets can lead to premature
tube failure if excess oil is used - it ruins rubber.

Quoted message said:

In the long run, you can't, because this is most likely fretting noise
between spoke nipple and rusty eyelet. Rouge forms in the interface
and makes noise. A drop of oil in each eyelet-spoke nipple interface
gets rid of it but riding in rain brings it back. That's why
stainless eyelets in steel sockets in a double walled rim are ideal.

Yes, that's what it appears to be. Twisting the nipple probably changed
the interface enough to temporarily silence it.

Quoted message said:

Soooo? We don't get no steenkin socketed rims no more, except rarely.
What a drag. At least I have a stash of MA-2 rims for now.

I have one unused MA-2 rim sitting in the garage. Picked it up cheap
from a bike shop going out of business quite a few years ago. Guess
I'll use it if the squeaking returns.

Joe

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

the often
recommended practice of using oil on the eyelets can lead to premature
tube failure if excess oil is used - it ruins rubber.

I know that is true for natural rubber (latex) but I thought regular
tubes made from butyl rubber are oil resistant, or am I confusing this
with neoprene??

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:56:52 -0800, jim beam
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

the often
recommended practice of using oil on the eyelets can lead to premature
tube failure if excess oil is used - it ruins rubber.

Dear Jim,

When it was mentioned that oil ruins inner tubes a while
back, I left a section of inner tube dunked in oil.

It showed no change after a month, so I threw it away.

What exactly is supposed to happen to the rubber?

Do I need to use a different oil, wait longer, inflate a
whole tube, apply the oil to the seams, or what?

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:56:52 -0800, jim beam
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

the often
recommended practice of using oil on the eyelets can lead to premature
tube failure if excess oil is used - it ruins rubber.

Dear Jim,

When it was mentioned that oil ruins inner tubes a while
back, I left a section of inner tube dunked in oil.

It showed no change after a month, so I threw it away.

What exactly is supposed to happen to the rubber?

Do I need to use a different oil, wait longer, inflate a
whole tube, apply the oil to the seams, or what?

Butyl tubes won't be affected by oil, as it is a polymer and not a rubber.

http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Public_Products/Butyl/Butyl_Polymers/Worldwide/Description_and_Background/History/Btl_Desc_HistoryOverview.asp

Observation trumps gedankenexperiments and guesses every day. Your
experiment was the right one, except that maybe you should have had
another piece of tube in a jar with nothing else in it as a control.

--
BMO

Phil said:

Mike, I have a friend with clicking Open Pros. Is there more information
about this problem or its history?

I have an clicking Open Pro too. After some time I got used to it and don't pay
any attention any more 🙂)

Ante Smokrovic
========================
[email hidden]
[email hidden]
ICQ: 5924617

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:56:52 -0800, jim beam
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

the often
recommended practice of using oil on the eyelets can lead to

premature

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tube failure if excess oil is used - it ruins rubber.

Dear Jim,

When it was mentioned that oil ruins inner tubes a while
back, I left a section of inner tube dunked in oil.

It showed no change after a month, so I threw it away.

What exactly is supposed to happen to the rubber?

Do I need to use a different oil, wait longer, inflate a
whole tube, apply the oil to the seams, or what?

Carl Fogel

Hay Carl
I think a more meaningful test would be to use an old rim, remove a
spoke, mount a tire & tube, pump it up to ~100 #s. Then drip a large
quanity of motor oil @ the spoke hole & @ the valve. Let it sit till it
blows, or not.
Perhaps better yet would be to use a rim that U regularly ride & dirp
oil @ one particular spoke & @ the valve. (This 2nd option is of course
w/o removing a spoke.
Have fun, John

In the past when I've had a problem with a clicking ring, here are
some things that have worked :

(a) go around the wheel and stress-relieve all pairs of spokes
(basically grasp both spokes between thumb and forefinger and tighten
grip to see if the spokes "ping" to a lower energy state ...)

(b) [ nashbar $60 wheelset ] Get some silicon adhesive and glue the
single eyelets back to the outside of the rim !! This solved a
problem on a very cheap rim with cheap eyelets whose inside halves
were falling down to the hub. That wheelset was so cheap I planned to
just dump it rather than ever retruing it !!

(c) I have not had experience with a rim that was badly pinned
together but such things are rumored to exist. If your rim is welded
then no need to worry about this one.

Open Pro rims are fairly easy to recognize by their profile, the top
is more rounded on an MA3 and more /-\ on an Open Pro rim (which also
has wider sidewalls as an effect.)

http://www.mavic.com/servlet/srt/mavic/road-prod_fiche?product.id=59&lg=uk#

Newer Open Pro rims are rumored to not be "noisey". See
roadbikereview.com for more information on the problem.

I would not bother oiling nipples because the oil is temporary and
will not last for more than a few rain or heat cycles. What might
help if you can afford to do it is to loosen and grease the nipple :
rim interface and if you're competant at wheel truing use new spoke
prep, etc. That would have a chance of lasting months rather than
just days which is probably the expected lifetime of oiled nipples ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA