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Horses on cyclepaths

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UK and Europe
Published
11 January 2005
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13 January 2005
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Rich
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  1. Can't remember if there has been a thread about this before, so please
    forgive me if you've already seen this.

    Bath and North East Somerset (BANES!) council, developed a Horse-riding
    strategy which includes allowing horses access to all the cycle paths in
    their area, including the incredibly popular Bristol-Bath cycle path, which
    has 1 million + trips a year.

    The council then spent 10 months consulting horsey groups and a few others.
    They did not consult any cycling groups, not the Bath Cycling Club, not the
    CTC. We found out about it three days before the Executive member for
    Transport, Sir Elgar Jenkins, was due to make the decision, and he received
    a number of emails demanding proper consultation. He decided to postpone
    the decision, which should have been made at the end of November. We were
    informed in latish of December that the council would be holding a Scrutiny
    Panel to examine the issue and to make reccomendations to the Exec member.
    That meeting was yesterday the 10th.

    A lot of evidence was put forward, which I won't bore you with, but that of
    the horsey people was rather remarkable. They claimed that there was no
    risk at all from horses, and that this was proved by a report from Surrey
    university which had researched horse/cyclist conflict and found there
    wasn't any (this despite the fact that a cyclist was killed by a horse in
    BANES less than two years ago).

    Having had somewhat less than the 10 months the horse lobby had had to
    prepare their case, we didn't know about this report, but I downloaded a
    copy today
    I attended the BANES Scrutiny Panel meeting yesterday, and was allowed to
    make a presentation (called "disgraceful" by two councillors!) as were the
    horseriders, Ramblers, police, NFU and a couple of others.

    During the presentations, the horsey people claimed that there was no risk
    whatsoever from introducing horses onto cycle paths. They claimed that this
    was proved by a report from Surrey university, which no cyclists were
    familiar with, since we haven't had time to do the research. I downloaded a
    copy today
    http://www.countryside.gov.uk/WiderWelcome/Greenways/publications/index.asp?printable=true

    Far from proving anything about horse/cyclist conflict, it isn't even clear
    whether the researchers observed a single interaction/passing movement
    between a cyclist and a horse. They also carefully selected the sites to be
    observed by making sure that they were dead straight and quite wide, and so
    automatically excluded the areas where conflict was likely to occur. They
    did discover that pedestrians wouldn't walk where they felt threatened by
    cyclists: this effect will be multiplied by horses.

    The chair of the meeting complimented the horsey people on "their
    comprehensive report". I had to point out in my presentation that they had
    had 10 months to produce it, whilst we had had a couple of weeks, including
    Christmas and new year. It hardly seems fair that one side has 10 months
    and the other has a couple of weeks at the busiest holiday time.

    All of the councillors mentioned the lack of consultation, but the one who
    criticised this error the most was in favour of a quick decision, apparently
    without any further consultation! There appears to be no reason why this
    decision should be made urgently, so I'm not sure why the councillor wants
    it made asap, and the only reason he gave was that the horsey people were
    waiting.

    If you live in BANES, please consider writing to your local councillor,
    demanding equal consultation with the horse lobby, but please make it soon!
    The officers will now compile a draft report, which will then be agreed by
    the panel, but there was no indication of how long this will take.

    --
    cheers

    Burt

  2. "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Can't remember if there has been a thread about this before, so please
    forgive me if you've already seen this.

    Isn't it normally psychopaths that ride horses -- not the other way round?

    T

  3. "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Bath and North East Somerset (BANES!) council, developed a
    Horse-riding strategy which includes allowing horses access to all the
    cycle paths in their area, including the incredibly popular
    Bristol-Bath cycle path, which has 1 million + trips a year.


    <snip very comprehensive post>

    Interesting stuff, and clearly a lot of disparity in the amount of time
    allowed for *all* parties to put their pitch together. Credit to you &
    cohorts for burning the midnight oil.

    I'm not anywhere near your area, so I can't comment on the specifics. And
    I'm aware of more than one occasion where horses have seriously injured
    or killed cyclists.

    But on a more general note, isn't there a case for cyclists and horsey
    types trying to co-exist with consideration for one another's needs? It
    seems that both modes of transport/leisure are equally mistreated by the
    car obsession & that it might be more fruitful to join forces, rather
    than to take up arms against one another (e.g "naaat aan moy
    coyclepaaath!"😉.

    I know you mentioned you're referring to horses being allowed onto cycle
    routes, but thousands of bridleways are shared between peds, cyclists &
    horse-riders. Given sensible consideration (by *ALL* users) towards other
    users, minimal conflict should occur. A very interesting thread ran on
    u.r.c a month or two ago on the subject of passing horses & what
    techniques to use so you don't startle them. Do you know what the
    circumstances were when the horse killed the cyclist in BANES? Genuine
    question - interested in how the tragedy came about, so we can all be
    better-informed in future.

    Your posting sounded kinda combative, that's all. Maybe we should be
    thinking 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' a little. I'd rather encounter a
    responsible horse-rider on a bridleway (& mutually avoid conflict
    sensibly) than some ar$ehole motorist on a normal road, who couldn't give
    a rat's chuffer about conflict - you're on "his" turf after all, remember
    ;-)

    I'd make an exception though for horsey types who let their horses sh!t
    everywhere. This spoils many a good bridleway for cyclists & peds & must
    be a health hazard. Why can't adopt the 'take a plastic bag along' (and
    maybe a trowel!) technique of responsible dog-owners? Just being lazy
    sods? Could any horsey people respond to this moan, please?

    --
    Chris Bardell
    [Remove favourite mode of transport from email address]

  4. "Chris Bardell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Bath and North East Somerset (BANES!) council, developed a
    Horse-riding strategy which includes allowing horses access to all the
    cycle paths in their area, including the incredibly popular
    Bristol-Bath cycle path, which has 1 million + trips a year.


    <snip very comprehensive post>

    But on a more general note, isn't there a case for cyclists and horsey
    types trying to co-exist with consideration for one another's needs? It
    seems that both modes of transport/leisure are equally mistreated by the
    car obsession & that it might be more fruitful to join forces, rather
    than to take up arms against one another (e.g "naaat aan moy
    coyclepaaath!"😉.

    Absolutely, and every representative of the existing users made exactly that
    point, including the Ramblers, and myself. But there are sections of the
    paths which are proposed for sharing with horses which are clearly not
    suitable: narrow, poor site lines, no verges. One of the reasons we are so
    aggreived is the complete total utter lack of consultation. If they had
    consulted, then this could have been sorted out very easily, with agreement
    on which paths were suitable. By not consulting, they have made the
    situation much worse.

    Quoted message said:


    I know you mentioned you're referring to horses being allowed onto cycle
    routes, but thousands of bridleways are shared between peds, cyclists &
    horse-riders. Given sensible consideration (by *ALL* users) towards other
    users, minimal conflict should occur. A very interesting thread ran on
    u.r.c a month or two ago on the subject of passing horses & what
    techniques to use so you don't startle them. Do you know what the
    circumstances were when the horse killed the cyclist in BANES? Genuine
    question - interested in how the tragedy came about, so we can all be
    better-informed in future.

    Sorry, I don't know the exact circs, apart from the fact that it was on a
    road considerably wider than the tracks in question.

    Quoted message said:


    Your posting sounded kinda combative, that's all. Maybe we should be
    thinking 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' a little. I'd rather encounter a
    responsible horse-rider on a bridleway (& mutually avoid conflict
    sensibly) than some ar$ehole motorist on a normal road, who couldn't give
    a rat's chuffer about conflict - you're on "his" turf after all, remember

    I'm feeling kind of combative. That's what not being consulted does!

    Quoted message said:

    ;-)

    I'd make an exception though for horsey types who let their horses sh!t
    everywhere. This spoils many a good bridleway for cyclists & peds & must
    be a health hazard. Why can't adopt the 'take a plastic bag along' (and
    maybe a trowel!) technique of responsible dog-owners? Just being lazy
    sods? Could any horsey people respond to this moan, please?

    The point was made many times at the panel, and the response from the horsey
    types was that horse [censored] isn't dangerous. Well pardon me, but they are sat
    six feet above it, and don't have to wash it out of their children's clothes
    and hair. Many people have commented to me that they would no longer allow
    their children to use the paths if horses were allowed on them, for two
    reasons: the danger and the horse [censored]. I'm beginning to wonder whether
    close coexistence with the stuff has meant that the proposers of this scheme
    have absorbed said substance and are now regurgitating it!

    Quoted message said:


    --
    Chris Bardell
    [Remove favourite mode of transport from email address]

  5. Chris Bardell said:

    "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:


    I'd make an exception though for horsey types who let their horses sh!t
    everywhere. This spoils many a good bridleway for cyclists & peds & must
    be a health hazard.

    And indeed disabled wheelchair users .........

    Quoted message said:

    Why can't adopt the 'take a plastic bag along' (and
    maybe a trowel!) technique of responsible dog-owners? Just being lazy
    sods? Could any horsey people respond to this moan, please?

    Here Here, I will get he butler to follow :-|

  6. Chris Bardell said:


    But on a more general note, isn't there a case for cyclists and horsey
    types trying to co-exist with consideration for one another's needs? It
    seems that both modes of transport/leisure are equally mistreated by the
    car obsession & that it might be more fruitful to join forces, rather
    than to take up arms against one another (e.g "naaat aan moy
    coyclepaaath!"😉.

    My thoughts too. I would be inclined to go for a trial period of
    monitoring use, safety and surface conditions over the first year,
    encouragement of the horse riders to stick to one side of the path so
    any damage doesn't make it unpassable to others, upgrading on the narrow
    parts to allow pedestrians and cyclists to pass horses coming the other
    way safely (think safety audit), monitoring and prompt repair of any
    horse shoe damage to the surface that makes it less usable by cycle,
    especially during wet weather spells (that cost element may make the
    council think twice)and a reporting line for any problems.

    Your biggest problems would seem to be horse shoe damage (they can
    really churn up surfaces in wet weather) and safety in the narrow
    stretches which can be dealt with by the council widening it. Providing
    its not heavily used by horses though I doubt its as big a problem as
    you think based on my experience of bridleways where we are effectively
    guests on rights of way on horseback.

    Tony

  7. Chris Bardell said:


    But on a more general note, isn't there a case for cyclists and horsey
    types trying to co-exist with consideration for one another's needs?

    All the more reason for both groups to be
    involved in the decision process :-)

    BugBear

  8. Tony Raven said:
    Quoted message said:

    Your biggest problems would seem to be horse shoe damage (they can
    really churn up surfaces in wet weather) and safety in the narrow

    There is a stretch of mixed use path into Southwell Notts from the west
    that is horseridden a lot and it is usually very difficult and
    uncomfortable to cycle on.I have to avoid it.
    I had thought this was the most important point.

    TerryJ

  9. I think you are right to be annoyed about not being consulted. But like
    others I would hope that there would be a reasonable solution - we need to
    work with horse-riders (who in particular share many of our concerns about
    high car speeds on country lanes).

    I agree the main things to look out for are path surface damage (this can be
    a real problem on those compacted aggregate Sustrans paths, eg parts of
    Selby-York). My personal view on horse poo is that it is an insignificant
    problem compared to the way dog poo blights so many cycle tracks. I don't
    really mind a bit of horse (or cow) poo transporting itself to the floor of
    my garage my wheels. Dog poo is an entirely different matter and we must
    stop cycle tracks becoming linear dog toilets.

    Paul

  10. Chris Bardell said:

    But on a more general note, isn't there a case for cyclists and horsey
    types trying to co-exist with consideration for one another's needs? It
    seems that both modes of transport/leisure are equally mistreated by the
    car obsession & that it might be more fruitful to join forces, rather
    than to take up arms against one another (e.g "naaat aan moy
    coyclepaaath!"😉.

    This isn't a general case, it's a specific case. I'm going to make 3
    separate replies to your post, rather than one long one. My first reply
    is to copy an e-mail that I sent to BANES and a couple of BANES
    councillors when I first read about the scheme:

    I was horrified to read of a proposal to permit equestrians to use the
    Bath-Bristol cyclepath: <http://tinyurl.com/466td> leads to
    <http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/committee_papers/Executive/WL2004/WL041029/01E496HorseRiding.htm>

    I was then appalled to see that the list of consultees did not include a
    single cycling organisation. At the very least I would have expected
    the CTC, Sustrans, Bristol Cycling Campaign and Bath Cycling Campaign to
    have been consulted on a proposal with such significant implications for
    the safety of cyclists.

    The cyclepath fulfils two main functions for cyclists. First, it
    provides a safe and pleasant alternative to the A4 for those of us who
    commute between the two cities. Second, it provides a safe environment
    for young and inexperienced cyclists to develop their cycling skills.

    The introduction of large, easily frightened animals will have an
    adverse effect on safety. Children who have been taken out to enjoy a
    safe cycling environment will find themselves riding with their heads
    alongside the knees of animals prone to kicking when scared. Because
    the path is not wide, commuters will find themselves having to pass far
    too close to these dangerous animals on a daily basis.

    I am reminded of the case of Anthony Bevin, a cyclist and B&NES council
    worker who was killed in 2001 by a horse which was apparently frightened
    by the red shirt worn by one of his riding companions:
    <URL:http://tinyurl.com/52wor> leads to
    <URL:http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/archive/2002/01/04/warm_news_local23ZM.html>

    Furthermore, the mess left behind by horses will make the cycling
    environment much less pleasant. This is already a problem, due to the
    few equestrians who use the cyclepath illegally.

    The argument for allowing equestrians to use the cyclepath is that the
    roads are not safe for them. The correct solution is not to endanger
    cyclists by requiring them to mix with horses, but rather to make the
    roads safer for all road users. This can be done by proper education of
    drivers and by rigorous enforcement of road traffic laws.

    --
    Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
    <URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
    "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

  11. Chris Bardell said:

    But on a more general note, isn't there a case for cyclists and horsey
    types trying to co-exist with consideration for one another's needs? It
    seems that both modes of transport/leisure are equally mistreated by the
    car obsession & that it might be more fruitful to join forces, rather
    than to take up arms against one another (e.g "naaat aan moy
    coyclepaaath!"😉.

    This isn't a general case, it's a specific case. I'm going to make 3
    separate replies to your post, rather than one long one. My second
    reply is to copy an e-mail that was sent to Cllr Elgar Jenkins and
    copied to the Bristol Cycling Campaign mailing list:

    Can I please ask for this to be reconsidered?
    As a primary school headteacher I am used to assessing risk & evaluating
    health & safety potential concerns, & this one fills me with dread!
    The potential damage to young people is huge - to everyone - horse
    riders, pedestrians and to cyclists.

    Horses are very powerful and easily spooked by 'the unexpected'.
    We take our year 6 class to a working farm for 7 days every year, and
    work with horses - they have to be treated with great care and attention.
    I think it unlikely that a significant number of people using the path
    would be aware of the dangers.

    I could elaborate, but think this should be reconsidered purely as an
    activity with a very high risk factor, & risks which are not removable
    by any of the usual preventive means.
    Yours sincerely,
    Keith Johnson

    http://www.luckwell.bristol.sch.uk/index.html

    --
    Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
    <URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
    "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

  12. Chris Bardell said:

    Do you know what the
    circumstances were when the horse killed the cyclist in BANES? Genuine
    question - interested in how the tragedy came about, so we can all be
    better-informed in future.

    My third reply to your post is to answer this question - well, sort of.
    I don't know of a case in the last 2 years, but I know of a case in
    2001 (which was discussed here at the time). This may be the case that
    Rich was referring to:

    <URL:http://tinyurl.com/52wor> leads to
    <URL:http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/archive/2002/01/04/warm_news_local23ZM.html>

    The victim was actually a BANES council manager.

    --
    Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
    <URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
    "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

  13. Chris Bardell said:

    Do you know what the
    circumstances were when the horse killed the cyclist in BANES? Genuine
    question - interested in how the tragedy came about, so we can all be
    better-informed in future.

    My third reply to your post is to answer this question - well, sort of.
    I don't know of a case in the last 2 years, but I know of a case in
    2001 (which was discussed here at the time). This may be the case that
    Rich was referring to:

    <URL:http://tinyurl.com/52wor> leads to
    <URL:http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/archive/2002/01/04/warm_news_local23ZM.html>

    The victim was actually a BANES council manager.

    --
    Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
    <URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
    "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

  14. In message <[email hidden]>

    Tony Raven said:


    Your biggest problems would seem to be horse shoe damage (they can
    really churn up surfaces in wet weather) and safety in the narrow
    stretches which can be dealt with by the council widening it. Providing
    its not heavily used by horses though I doubt its as big a problem as
    you think based on my experience of bridleways where we are effectively
    guests on rights of way on horseback.

    Between Kingston and Hampton Court horses are banned from the Sustrans
    path. Some suspicious looking damage occurred to the surface and was
    tracked down to riders from the local Police College. A few horses can
    massively damage a clay/gravel surface.

    --
    CTC Right to Ride Representative for Richmond upon Thames

  15. On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:09:25 GMT someone who may be Paul Luton
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    Between Kingston and Hampton Court horses are banned from the Sustrans
    path. Some suspicious looking damage occurred to the surface and was
    tracked down to riders from the local Police College. A few horses can
    massively damage a clay/gravel surface.

    Presumably walking is not too much of a problem, but anything faster
    is.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
    I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
    prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

  16. Chris Bardell said:


    techniques to use so you don't startle them. Do you know what the
    circumstances were when the horse killed the cyclist in BANES?

    Well, I wasn't killed, but I had a horse throw me from my bike once.
    Two horsey people riding abreast coming at me. I slowed right down
    (below walking pace) and rode right at the edge of teh path (skimming
    the bushes). Horses went past (still riding abreast - heaven forbid
    taking any action to make life easier for a plebe not on a horse) and
    as they did so the one nearest me jumped sideways and knocked me into
    teh hedge.

    Stupid woman riding it then threw a hissy fit about how I might have
    injured her precious brute.

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|

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