Good Soup

Saffire said:

Made some GREAT beef soup tonight and thought I'd share the ingredients
to give people some ideas.

Filled a big pot with 16 cups of water and 2 lbs of soup bones. Added:

burgundy - 1.75 cups
beef stew meat - 36.2 oz
beef boullion - 5 cubes
yam cake, cut into small chunks - 360 grams (shiritaki)
cabbage - 32.8 oz (1 head)
celery - 22.9 oz (1 bunch)
garlic - 32 grams (several cloves)
mushrooms - 19.9 oz
onion - 18.5 oz (2 medium onions)
tomatoes, canned, diced - 28 oz
dried basil - 2 tbl
dried parsley - 2 tbl
3 dried bay leaves (remove before eating)

Sounds like a good solid soup recipe. Thanks for posting it.

All it needs is a little wasabi or cajun seasoning 😉

This seems great! I'm thinking about trying it out. What would happen if I
leave out the yam cake, as I don't know what that is and probably can't get
it here. Could you suggest a substitute? How soupy was the resulting soup?
Thanks.

Saffire wrote:
|| Made some GREAT beef soup tonight and thought I'd share the
|| ingredients to give people some ideas.
||
|| Filled a big pot with 16 cups of water and 2 lbs of soup bones.
|| Added:
||
|| burgundy - 1.75 cups
|| beef stew meat - 36.2 oz
|| beef boullion - 5 cubes
|| yam cake, cut into small chunks - 360 grams (shiritaki)
|| cabbage - 32.8 oz (1 head)
|| celery - 22.9 oz (1 bunch)
|| garlic - 32 grams (several cloves)
|| mushrooms - 19.9 oz
|| onion - 18.5 oz (2 medium onions)
|| tomatoes, canned, diced - 28 oz
|| dried basil - 2 tbl
|| dried parsley - 2 tbl
|| 3 dried bay leaves (remove before eating)
||
|| Cook 2-3 hours. After removing the bones, it yielded 25 cups of
|| GREAT soup! I used 1.75 cups of burgundy because that's all I had
|| :-) I would have added zucchini (because I put zucchini in ALL my
|| soups and stews), but I forgot to buy any. The tomatoes are
|| Safeway's store brand, which has no added sugar. I got the yam cake
|| at a local Japanese grocery store (as a change from the long thin
|| shiritaki/yam noodles). I usually get my herbs from the Whole Foods
|| bulk bins in the spice section, and they are much more flavorful
|| than what you'll find on average grocery store shelves (fresh is
|| even better, but then you have to deal with preserving it or using
|| it right away). There is a lot of sodium per 1-cup serving (742.3
|| mg) due to the beef bouillon, but it's still only a THIRD of what's
|| in HALF can of Campbell's beef broth (which is something to think
|| about the next time you open a can of soup).
||
|| I had a bowl a little while ago and didn't feel the need to add
|| anything to it but some fresh-ground pepper.
||
|| I'm not sure how much flavor I got from the soup bones -- I cooked
|| them for an hour with the water, onion, celery and garlic before
|| adding the rest of the ingredients, but the broth didn't seem
|| particularly beefy. The bouillon helped a lot in that regard.
||
|| 120 calories/6 carbs per serving.
||
|| --
|| Saffire
|| 205/145/125 - 5'1.5"
|| Atkins since 6/14/03
|| Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

This seems great! I'm thinking about trying it out. What would happen if I
leave out the yam cake, as I don't know what that is and probably can't get
it here. Could you suggest a substitute? How soupy was the resulting soup?
Thanks.

Saffire wrote:
|| Made some GREAT beef soup tonight and thought I'd share the
|| ingredients to give people some ideas.
||
|| Filled a big pot with 16 cups of water and 2 lbs of soup bones.
|| Added:
||
|| burgundy - 1.75 cups
|| beef stew meat - 36.2 oz
|| beef boullion - 5 cubes
|| yam cake, cut into small chunks - 360 grams (shiritaki)
|| cabbage - 32.8 oz (1 head)
|| celery - 22.9 oz (1 bunch)
|| garlic - 32 grams (several cloves)
|| mushrooms - 19.9 oz
|| onion - 18.5 oz (2 medium onions)
|| tomatoes, canned, diced - 28 oz
|| dried basil - 2 tbl
|| dried parsley - 2 tbl
|| 3 dried bay leaves (remove before eating)
||
|| Cook 2-3 hours. After removing the bones, it yielded 25 cups of
|| GREAT soup! I used 1.75 cups of burgundy because that's all I had
|| :-) I would have added zucchini (because I put zucchini in ALL my
|| soups and stews), but I forgot to buy any. The tomatoes are
|| Safeway's store brand, which has no added sugar. I got the yam cake
|| at a local Japanese grocery store (as a change from the long thin
|| shiritaki/yam noodles). I usually get my herbs from the Whole Foods
|| bulk bins in the spice section, and they are much more flavorful
|| than what you'll find on average grocery store shelves (fresh is
|| even better, but then you have to deal with preserving it or using
|| it right away). There is a lot of sodium per 1-cup serving (742.3
|| mg) due to the beef bouillon, but it's still only a THIRD of what's
|| in HALF can of Campbell's beef broth (which is something to think
|| about the next time you open a can of soup).
||
|| I had a bowl a little while ago and didn't feel the need to add
|| anything to it but some fresh-ground pepper.
||
|| I'm not sure how much flavor I got from the soup bones -- I cooked
|| them for an hour with the water, onion, celery and garlic before
|| adding the rest of the ingredients, but the broth didn't seem
|| particularly beefy. The bouillon helped a lot in that regard.
||
|| 120 calories/6 carbs per serving.
||
|| --
|| Saffire
|| 205/145/125 - 5'1.5"
|| Atkins since 6/14/03
|| Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

I've always used ox tails for soup and they should really be boiled for
several hours, then removed from broth, meat picked from the bones.
You'll need no beef bouillion then!

I've also found that if I put some zukes and some mushrooms in the
blender that they will make the soup thicker and add flavor. I don't
like the texture of mushrooms in soup--stew is fine. And zukes just get
too mushy for my taste. I also like to add sliced brussel sprouts and
fresh beans.

Janet

Saffire said:

Made some GREAT beef soup tonight and thought I'd share the ingredients
to give people some ideas.

Filled a big pot with 16 cups of water and 2 lbs of soup bones. Added:

burgundy - 1.75 cups
beef stew meat - 36.2 oz
beef boullion - 5 cubes
yam cake, cut into small chunks - 360 grams (shiritaki)
cabbage - 32.8 oz (1 head)
celery - 22.9 oz (1 bunch)
garlic - 32 grams (several cloves)
mushrooms - 19.9 oz
onion - 18.5 oz (2 medium onions)
tomatoes, canned, diced - 28 oz
dried basil - 2 tbl
dried parsley - 2 tbl
3 dried bay leaves (remove before eating)

Cook 2-3 hours. After removing the bones, it yielded 25 cups of GREAT
soup! I used 1.75 cups of burgundy because that's all I had :-) I
would have added zucchini (because I put zucchini in ALL my soups and
stews), but I forgot to buy any. The tomatoes are Safeway's store
brand, which has no added sugar. I got the yam cake at a local Japanese
grocery store (as a change from the long thin shiritaki/yam noodles). I
usually get my herbs from the Whole Foods bulk bins in the spice
section, and they are much more flavorful than what you'll find on
average grocery store shelves (fresh is even better, but then you have
to deal with preserving it or using it right away). There is a lot of
sodium per 1-cup serving (742.3 mg) due to the beef bouillon, but it's
still only a THIRD of what's in HALF can of Campbell's beef broth (which
is something to think about the next time you open a can of soup).

I had a bowl a little while ago and didn't feel the need to add anything
to it but some fresh-ground pepper.

I'm not sure how much flavor I got from the soup bones -- I cooked them
for an hour with the water, onion, celery and garlic before adding the
rest of the ingredients, but the broth didn't seem particularly beefy.
The bouillon helped a lot in that regard.

120 calories/6 carbs per serving.

I've always used ox tails for soup and they should really be boiled for
several hours, then removed from broth, meat picked from the bones.
You'll need no beef bouillion then!

I've also found that if I put some zukes and some mushrooms in the
blender that they will make the soup thicker and add flavor. I don't
like the texture of mushrooms in soup--stew is fine. And zukes just get
too mushy for my taste. I also like to add sliced brussel sprouts and
fresh beans.

Janet

Saffire said:

Made some GREAT beef soup tonight and thought I'd share the ingredients
to give people some ideas.

Filled a big pot with 16 cups of water and 2 lbs of soup bones. Added:

burgundy - 1.75 cups
beef stew meat - 36.2 oz
beef boullion - 5 cubes
yam cake, cut into small chunks - 360 grams (shiritaki)
cabbage - 32.8 oz (1 head)
celery - 22.9 oz (1 bunch)
garlic - 32 grams (several cloves)
mushrooms - 19.9 oz
onion - 18.5 oz (2 medium onions)
tomatoes, canned, diced - 28 oz
dried basil - 2 tbl
dried parsley - 2 tbl
3 dried bay leaves (remove before eating)

Cook 2-3 hours. After removing the bones, it yielded 25 cups of GREAT
soup! I used 1.75 cups of burgundy because that's all I had :-) I
would have added zucchini (because I put zucchini in ALL my soups and
stews), but I forgot to buy any. The tomatoes are Safeway's store
brand, which has no added sugar. I got the yam cake at a local Japanese
grocery store (as a change from the long thin shiritaki/yam noodles). I
usually get my herbs from the Whole Foods bulk bins in the spice
section, and they are much more flavorful than what you'll find on
average grocery store shelves (fresh is even better, but then you have
to deal with preserving it or using it right away). There is a lot of
sodium per 1-cup serving (742.3 mg) due to the beef bouillon, but it's
still only a THIRD of what's in HALF can of Campbell's beef broth (which
is something to think about the next time you open a can of soup).

I had a bowl a little while ago and didn't feel the need to add anything
to it but some fresh-ground pepper.

I'm not sure how much flavor I got from the soup bones -- I cooked them
for an hour with the water, onion, celery and garlic before adding the
rest of the ingredients, but the broth didn't seem particularly beefy.
The bouillon helped a lot in that regard.

120 calories/6 carbs per serving.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

This seems great! I'm thinking about trying it out. What would happen if I
leave out the yam cake, as I don't know what that is and probably can't get
it here. Could you suggest a substitute? How soupy was the resulting soup?
Thanks.

The yam cake would make no difference at all in the taste and not much
even in the carb or calorie count. I added it at the last second as a
lark. It was definitely more soup than stew, not thick at all, but
still with lots of "food" in each spoonful until the bottom of the bowl,
at which time, if no one is looking, you can tip the bowl up to get the
last drop :-)

--
Saffire
205/145/125 - 5'1.5"
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I've always used ox tails for soup and they should really be boiled for
several hours, then removed from broth, meat picked from the bones.
You'll need no beef bouillion then!

Thanks -- I'll try that next time.

--
Saffire
205/145/125 - 5'1.5"
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

You could probably put turnips in it instead....

I love making creamy soups......I take some broccoli and cauliflower,
and steam it (or you can microwave it). Then I chop it up, put it in
the blender with some water, and get it nice and creamy. Put in a pot,
add spices, salt, etc., and a touch of cream. Ready to go! You can add
a tiny bit of pumpkin too, or whatever veggies cream well. Delish! And
really quick to make too. I also find it very filling. A couple bowls
and I feel just right! I love how the color changes according to the
veggies you use, too.

Quoted message said:

What would happen if I leave out the yam cake, as I don't know
what that is and probably can't get it here. Could you suggest a
substitute?

In the case of shirataki and probably most times the word "yam"
is translated from Japanese, Mandarin and/or Cantonese is
actually means diakon radish that has been ground up and
formed into a paste.

Shirataki noodles rule because they are wheat-free, extremely
low carb, almost all fiber.

What to substitute? Something made from fiber that gells.
Could be a small amount of Knox (maybe a quarter as much?).
Could be an alternate gelling agent like agar. Or maybe an
alternate gelling fiber of guar gum.

I don't know if Saffire used it as a gelling agent or as chunks
of already gelled stuff. Already gelled stuff would have a texture
like pieces of a mild root veggie but without the starch.

Doug Freyburger wrote:
||| What would happen if I leave out the yam cake, as I don't know
||| what that is and probably can't get it here. Could you suggest a
||| substitute?
||
|| In the case of shirataki and probably most times the word "yam"
|| is translated from Japanese, Mandarin and/or Cantonese is
|| actually means diakon radish that has been ground up and
|| formed into a paste.
||
|| Shirataki noodles rule because they are wheat-free, extremely
|| low carb, almost all fiber.
||
|| What to substitute? Something made from fiber that gells.
|| Could be a small amount of Knox (maybe a quarter as much?).
|| Could be an alternate gelling agent like agar. Or maybe an
|| alternate gelling fiber of guar gum.
||
|| I don't know if Saffire used it as a gelling agent or as chunks
|| of already gelled stuff. Already gelled stuff would have a texture
|| like pieces of a mild root veggie but without the starch.

Thanks for the info. Gosh, I don't know any of the items you mentioned
either, but I do know what a radish is 🙂 I like the idea of an almost al
fiber root, though. I have some guar gum, too. Another poster mentioned
zuke and mushrooms in the blender, to thicken it up. I might try that,
Thanks again.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freyburger wrote:
||| What would happen if I leave out the yam cake, as I don't know
||| what that is and probably can't get it here. Could you suggest a
||| substitute?
||
|| In the case of shirataki and probably most times the word "yam"
|| is translated from Japanese, Mandarin and/or Cantonese is
|| actually means diakon radish that has been ground up and
|| formed into a paste.
||
|| Shirataki noodles rule because they are wheat-free, extremely
|| low carb, almost all fiber.
||
|| What to substitute? Something made from fiber that gells.
|| Could be a small amount of Knox (maybe a quarter as much?).
|| Could be an alternate gelling agent like agar. Or maybe an
|| alternate gelling fiber of guar gum.
||
|| I don't know if Saffire used it as a gelling agent or as chunks
|| of already gelled stuff. Already gelled stuff would have a texture
|| like pieces of a mild root veggie but without the starch.

Thanks for the info. Gosh, I don't know any of the items you mentioned
either, but I do know what a radish is 🙂 I like the idea of an almost al
fiber root, though. I have some guar gum, too. Another poster mentioned
zuke and mushrooms in the blender, to thicken it up. I might try that,
Thanks again.

Less water works, too :-)

Shiritaki NOODLES (as opposed to the little scallop-like chunks I used
in the soup this time) are very much like cellophane and ramen noodles.
The shiritaki noodles soften up some, but they never get mushy, even
after several days in a sauce, soup, etc. I think next time I'll use
the noodles instead of the chunks. Or not at all -- you don't HAVE to
have noodles in a soup :-)

--
Saffire
205/145/125 - 5'1.5"
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

Saffire wrote:
|| In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
|| says...
||| Doug Freyburger wrote:
|||||| What would happen if I leave out the yam cake, as I don't know
|||||| what that is and probably can't get it here. Could you suggest a
|||||| substitute?
|||||
||||| In the case of shirataki and probably most times the word "yam"
||||| is translated from Japanese, Mandarin and/or Cantonese is
||||| actually means diakon radish that has been ground up and
||||| formed into a paste.
|||||
||||| Shirataki noodles rule because they are wheat-free, extremely
||||| low carb, almost all fiber.
|||||
||||| What to substitute? Something made from fiber that gells.
||||| Could be a small amount of Knox (maybe a quarter as much?).
||||| Could be an alternate gelling agent like agar. Or maybe an
||||| alternate gelling fiber of guar gum.
|||||
||||| I don't know if Saffire used it as a gelling agent or as chunks
||||| of already gelled stuff. Already gelled stuff would have a
||||| texture like pieces of a mild root veggie but without the starch.
|||
||| Thanks for the info. Gosh, I don't know any of the items you
||| mentioned either, but I do know what a radish is 🙂 I like the
||| idea of an almost al fiber root, though. I have some guar gum, too.
||| Another poster mentioned zuke and mushrooms in the blender, to
||| thicken it up. I might try that, Thanks again.
||
|| Less water works, too :-)
||
|| Shiritaki NOODLES (as opposed to the little scallop-like chunks I
|| used
|| in the soup this time) are very much like cellophane and ramen
|| noodles.
|| The shiritaki noodles soften up some, but they never get mushy, even
|| after several days in a sauce, soup, etc. I think next time I'll use
|| the noodles instead of the chunks. Or not at all -- you don't HAVE
|| to
|| have noodles in a soup :-)

It would be simpler for me to just leave that part out. No decisions! 🙂

Quoted message said:

I don't know any of the items you mentioned either, but I do
know what a radish is 🙂 I like the idea of an almost al
fiber root, though.

If you've eaten at a Japanese restaurant you've had daikon
radish. It's the white stuff they shred into threads and use
as background or to hold up sashimi. Daikon is a word
that means "big root" and when you see a whole one in a
store the reason for the name becomes obvious. They are
the size of a rutabaga.

Shirataki is a type of noodle made from powdered daikon
radish (yam) and/or soy. Ultra-low carb. It comes wet in
sealed plastic bags. Not much flavor but for a gram of
carb many folks are willing to make that sacrafice. It
soaks up spices just fine.

Doug Freyburger said:

Quoted message said:

What would happen if I leave out the yam cake, as I don't know
what that is and probably can't get it here. Could you suggest a
substitute?

In the case of shirataki and probably most times the word "yam"
is translated from Japanese, Mandarin and/or Cantonese is
actually means diakon radish that has been ground up and
formed into a paste.

Shirataki isn't daikon. It's konyakku in Japanese or, in English,
konjac. Glucomannan is the commercial name. Picture of the plant from
which it comes at the bottom of the page. Most assuredly not daikon.

<http://www.konjacfoods.com/gum.htm> and again
<http://www.konjacfoods.com/pattern.htm>

Quoted message said:

Shirataki noodles rule because they are wheat-free, extremely
low carb, almost all fiber.

What to substitute? Something made from fiber that gells.
Could be a small amount of Knox (maybe a quarter as much?).
Could be an alternate gelling agent like agar. Or maybe an
alternate gelling fiber of guar gum.

I don't know if Saffire used it as a gelling agent or as chunks
of already gelled stuff.

She said "yam cake" didn't she? Suggests a solid. Konjac doesn't work
like other gels and home use of the powder (note: not a "cake"😉 is a
great deal trickier than others. In any event, the soup called for
cakes cut up. Not for a thickener.

<http://www.konjacfoods.com/food.htm>

Quoted message said:

Already gelled stuff would have a texture
like pieces of a mild root veggie but without the starch.

The web site says:
"Konjac foods have no discernible taste but absorb the dominant
flavors of the soup or dish to which they're added.

They are very much like cellophane or bean thread noodles in taste and
texture BUT they have no net carbs or calories."

It's rubbery with virtually no flavor. Chewy. Not at all like root
veggies. Milky-white looking.

Pastorio

Quoted message said:

Shirataki isn't daikon. It's konyakku in Japanese or, in English,
konjac. Glucomannan is the commercial name. Picture of the plant from
which it comes at the bottom of the page. Most assuredly not daikon.

<http://www.konjacfoods.com/gum.htm> and again
<http://www.konjacfoods.com/pattern.htm>

Thanks. Even less like a yam than a daikon is. I've seen daikon
listed as yam in some instances and I wasn't aware that the word
yam was used for other plants as well.

Quoted message said:

The web site says:
"Konjac foods have no discernible taste but absorb the dominant
flavors of the soup or dish to which they're added.

Rather like tofu in that sense.

Quoted message said:

They are very much like cellophane or bean thread noodles in taste

and

Quoted message said:

texture BUT they have no net carbs or calories."

I always doubt claims that something is really net zero. Super duper
low, sure, but actually zero? I think that's dubious. I count the
noodles as at least one when I have them no matter the claim of zero.
It is a conservative approach.

Bob (this one) said:

Doug Freyburger said:

Quoted message said:

What would happen if I leave out the yam cake, as I don't know
what that is and probably can't get it here. Could you suggest a
substitute?

In the case of shirataki and probably most times the word "yam"
is translated from Japanese, Mandarin and/or Cantonese is
actually means diakon radish that has been ground up and
formed into a paste.

Shirataki isn't daikon. It's konyakku in Japanese or, in English,
konjac. Glucomannan is the commercial name. Picture of the plant from
which it comes at the bottom of the page. Most assuredly not daikon.

<http://www.konjacfoods.com/gum.htm> and again
<http://www.konjacfoods.com/pattern.htm>

Quoted message said:

Shirataki noodles rule because they are wheat-free, extremely
low carb, almost all fiber.

What to substitute? Something made from fiber that gells.
Could be a small amount of Knox (maybe a quarter as much?).
Could be an alternate gelling agent like agar. Or maybe an
alternate gelling fiber of guar gum.

I don't know if Saffire used it as a gelling agent or as chunks
of already gelled stuff.

She said "yam cake" didn't she? Suggests a solid. Konjac doesn't work
like other gels and home use of the powder (note: not a "cake"😉 is a
great deal trickier than others. In any event, the soup called for
cakes cut up. Not for a thickener.

The cakes are called konnyaku. The strands are shirataki.

Quoted message said:

<http://www.konjacfoods.com/food.htm>

Quoted message said:

Already gelled stuff would have a texture
like pieces of a mild root veggie but without the starch.

The web site says:
"Konjac foods have no discernible taste but absorb the dominant
flavors of the soup or dish to which they're added.

They are very much like cellophane or bean thread noodles in taste and
texture BUT they have no net carbs or calories."

It's rubbery with virtually no flavor. Chewy. Not at all like root
veggies. Milky-white looking.

Pastorio

--
Jean B.

That would be much too salty for me. 5 cubes of boullion, geez. I don't
use any boullion in my soups. Just add salt to taste and always use plenty
of roasted bones.

Curt

"Saffire" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Made some GREAT beef soup tonight and thought I'd share the ingredients
to give people some ideas.

Filled a big pot with 16 cups of water and 2 lbs of soup bones. Added:

burgundy - 1.75 cups
beef stew meat - 36.2 oz
beef boullion - 5 cubes
yam cake, cut into small chunks - 360 grams (shiritaki)
cabbage - 32.8 oz (1 head)
celery - 22.9 oz (1 bunch)
garlic - 32 grams (several cloves)
mushrooms - 19.9 oz
onion - 18.5 oz (2 medium onions)
tomatoes, canned, diced - 28 oz
dried basil - 2 tbl
dried parsley - 2 tbl
3 dried bay leaves (remove before eating)

Cook 2-3 hours. After removing the bones, it yielded 25 cups of GREAT
soup! I used 1.75 cups of burgundy because that's all I had :-) I
would have added zucchini (because I put zucchini in ALL my soups and
stews), but I forgot to buy any. The tomatoes are Safeway's store
brand, which has no added sugar. I got the yam cake at a local Japanese
grocery store (as a change from the long thin shiritaki/yam noodles). I
usually get my herbs from the Whole Foods bulk bins in the spice
section, and they are much more flavorful than what you'll find on
average grocery store shelves (fresh is even better, but then you have
to deal with preserving it or using it right away). There is a lot of
sodium per 1-cup serving (742.3 mg) due to the beef bouillon, but it's
still only a THIRD of what's in HALF can of Campbell's beef broth (which
is something to think about the next time you open a can of soup).

I had a bowl a little while ago and didn't feel the need to add anything
to it but some fresh-ground pepper.

I'm not sure how much flavor I got from the soup bones -- I cooked them
for an hour with the water, onion, celery and garlic before adding the
rest of the ingredients, but the broth didn't seem particularly beefy.
The bouillon helped a lot in that regard.

120 calories/6 carbs per serving.

--
Saffire
205/145/125 - 5'1.5"
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

In article <VvzDd.1690$eb.79@trndny01>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

That would be much too salty for me. 5 cubes of boullion, geez. I don't
use any boullion in my soups. Just add salt to taste and always use plenty
of roasted bones.

Yes, I'll cook the bones MUCH longer next time for the flavor. That was
5 cubes of bouillon for TWENTY cups of soup, so it's not like there's
one cube per serving, but I agree; I would rather not use them.

--
Saffire
205/145/125 - 5'1.5"
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333