General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Photo(!): RAW processing

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
3 January 2005
Last activity
6 January 2005
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Darren G
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  1. I guess this is mainly aimed at Paul, but any other views welcome ...

    Just made the effort to start working more in RAW and was wondering what
    is the best :

    1. way of managing files. Currently I'm processing the RAWs to 16-bit
    TIF as a 'reference file' and then generating JPGs from the Tiff for
    'working' copies (I.e. web, sharing, wallpapers, etc.) My thinking is
    that this way I maintain a fully detailed image showing the effects of
    precessing from RAW and hence have a file I can get consistent JPGs
    from. However this does mean that I'm considering buying myself some
    network attached storage to cope with the volumes!!

    2. software to use to process the RAWs (preferably without incurring
    cost). Using the Canon software works... to a fashion, but it is clunky
    to use and the previews are very slow to refresh, making it hard to
    compare the effect of changes 'before & after'. And on first glances it
    doesn't seem to do batch work.

    Cheers

    --
    Darren
    mail to darren not ng

  2. In message <[email hidden]>, Darren G
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    I guess this is mainly aimed at Paul, but any other views welcome ...

    Just made the effort to start working more in RAW and was wondering what
    is the best :

    1. way of managing files. Currently I'm processing the RAWs to 16-bit
    TIF as a 'reference file' and then generating JPGs from the Tiff for
    'working' copies (I.e. web, sharing, wallpapers, etc.) My thinking is
    that this way I maintain a fully detailed image showing the effects of
    precessing from RAW and hence have a file I can get consistent JPGs
    from. However this does mean that I'm considering buying myself some
    network attached storage to cope with the volumes!!

    I keep the original RAW files, which are smaller than Tiffs. Plenty of
    storage is still required though. I use a ViPowER Smart Shuttle that
    holds removable hard drives (ordinary hard drives not external ones).
    http://www.vipower.com/

    Quoted message said:


    2. software to use to process the RAWs (preferably without incurring
    cost). Using the Canon software works... to a fashion, but it is clunky
    to use and the previews are very slow to refresh, making it hard to
    compare the effect of changes 'before & after'. And on first glances it
    doesn't seem to do batch work.

    I found the Canon software very poor so I quickly stopped using it. I
    use Capture One SE, which is excellent and allows batch processing as
    well as post processing. http://www.phaseone.com/

  3. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Darren G
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    I guess this is mainly aimed at Paul, but any other views welcome ...

    Just made the effort to start working more in RAW and was wondering what
    is the best :

    1. way of managing files. Currently I'm processing the RAWs to 16-bit
    TIF as a 'reference file' and then generating JPGs from the Tiff for
    'working' copies (I.e. web, sharing, wallpapers, etc.) My thinking is
    that this way I maintain a fully detailed image showing the effects of
    precessing from RAW and hence have a file I can get consistent JPGs
    from. However this does mean that I'm considering buying myself some
    network attached storage to cope with the volumes!!

    I keep the original RAW files, which are smaller than Tiffs. Plenty of
    storage is still required though. I use a ViPowER Smart Shuttle that

    I'm tempted to do the same, esp. as all the software I have cannot cope
    with the 16-bit tiffs. Not sure about the latest version of PS though -
    maybe this is the reason to spend the upgrade dosh :-)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    2. software to use to process the RAWs (preferably without incurring
    cost). Using the Canon software works... to a fashion, but it is clunky
    to use and the previews are very slow to refresh, making it hard to
    compare the effect of changes 'before & after'. And on first glances it
    doesn't seem to do batch work.

    I found the Canon software very poor so I quickly stopped using it. I
    use Capture One SE, which is excellent and allows batch processing as
    well as post processing. http://www.phaseone.com/


    Thanks. Will check it out. Esp. as better RAW management and
    processing will further remove the need to keep the intermediate tiffs.

    --
    Darren
    mail to darren not ng

  4. Darren G said:

    software to use to process the RAWs

    I see Adobe now has a Photoshop plugin for working with various RAW
    formats:

    http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/cameraraw.html

    Presumably the plugin will work with other image editors (PSP,
    Photopaint etc) which accept standard plugins?

    --
    Pete Bland

  5. In message <[email hidden]>, Darren G
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Darren G
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    I guess this is mainly aimed at Paul, but any other views welcome ...

    Just made the effort to start working more in RAW and was wondering what
    is the best :

    1. way of managing files. Currently I'm processing the RAWs to 16-bit
    TIF as a 'reference file' and then generating JPGs from the Tiff for
    'working' copies (I.e. web, sharing, wallpapers, etc.) My thinking is
    that this way I maintain a fully detailed image showing the effects of
    precessing from RAW and hence have a file I can get consistent JPGs
    from. However this does mean that I'm considering buying myself some
    network attached storage to cope with the volumes!!

    I keep the original RAW files, which are smaller than Tiffs. Plenty of
    storage is still required though. I use a ViPowER Smart Shuttle that

    I'm tempted to do the same

    It's worth doing - the Raw files are effectively the digital negative,
    the original image.

    Quoted message said:

    , esp. as all the software I have cannot cope
    with the 16-bit tiffs. Not sure about the latest version of PS though -
    maybe this is the reason to spend the upgrade dosh :-)

    Photoshop Elements 3 will handle 16 bit files. So will Capture One SE.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    2. software to use to process the RAWs (preferably without incurring
    cost). Using the Canon software works... to a fashion, but it is clunky
    to use and the previews are very slow to refresh, making it hard to
    compare the effect of changes 'before & after'. And on first glances it
    doesn't seem to do batch work.

    I found the Canon software very poor so I quickly stopped using it. I
    use Capture One SE, which is excellent and allows batch processing as
    well as post processing. http://www.phaseone.com/


    Thanks. Will check it out. Esp. as better RAW management and
    processing will further remove the need to keep the intermediate tiffs.


    I find Capture One excellent. Elements 3 will process RAW files but I
    don't find it as easy or effective. In C1 SE you can see the image in
    detail and make any necessary adjustments when you process it to a Tiff
    or JPEG. I rarely do any processing in Elements any more. C1 SE is more
    than adequate for most images.

  6. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Darren G
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Darren G
    <[email hidden]> writes


    [...[

    Quoted message said:

    Photoshop Elements 3 will handle 16 bit files.

    At least that will be a cheaper upgrade from PE2

    Quoted message said:

    I find Capture One excellent. Elements 3 will process RAW files but I
    don't find it as easy or effective. In C1 SE you can see the image in
    detail and make any necessary adjustments when you process it to a Tiff
    or JPEG. I rarely do any processing in Elements any more. C1 SE is more
    than adequate for most images.

    C1 SE has been withdrawn. They only have the LE & Pro versions now.
    Just d/l the LE version and had a quick play. first impressions are
    good and I see how it can remove the need for PE/PS on the majority of
    images. Will keep playing before the eval runs out!

    --
    Darren
    mail to darren not ng

  7. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Darren G
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Darren G
    <[email hidden]> writes


    [...[

    Quoted message said:

    Photoshop Elements 3 will handle 16 bit files.

    At least that will be a cheaper upgrade from PE2

    Quoted message said:

    I find Capture One excellent. Elements 3 will process RAW files but I
    don't find it as easy or effective. In C1 SE you can see the image in
    detail and make any necessary adjustments when you process it to a Tiff
    or JPEG. I rarely do any processing in Elements any more. C1 SE is more
    than adequate for most images.

    C1 SE has been withdrawn. They only have the LE & Pro versions now.
    Just d/l the LE version and had a quick play. first impressions are
    good and I see how it can remove the need for PE/PS on the majority of
    images. Will keep playing before the eval runs out!

    --
    Darren
    mail to darren not ng

  8. In message <[email hidden]>, Darren G
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Darren G
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...
    > In message <[email hidden]>, Darren G
    > <[email hidden]> writes


    [...[

    Quoted message said:

    Photoshop Elements 3 will handle 16 bit files.

    At least that will be a cheaper upgrade from PE2

    Much cheaper than Photoshop.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    I find Capture One excellent. Elements 3 will process RAW files but I
    don't find it as easy or effective. In C1 SE you can see the image in
    detail and make any necessary adjustments when you process it to a Tiff
    or JPEG. I rarely do any processing in Elements any more. C1 SE is more
    than adequate for most images.

    C1 SE has been withdrawn. They only have the LE & Pro versions now.
    Just d/l the LE version and had a quick play. first impressions are
    good and I see how it can remove the need for PE/PS on the majority of
    images. Will keep playing before the eval runs out!

    I didn't realise that about SE. They change fast. I bought C1 Rebel,
    designed solely for the 300D, last February. That was discontinued a few
    months later and I was offered an upgrade to SE. Now I see I can get an
    upgrade to C1 Pro.

    LE looks very similar to SE, except that you can only batch process 20
    images at a time. There's no limit in SE or Pro.

    Quoted message said:
  9. An excellent prog to convert bitmap formats, including batch processing is
    xnview from http://xnview.com/ it is freeware.

    --

    Ted Ferenc. (http://www.ndrw.co.uk)
    This message, and any attachment, is private and confidential.
    It is intended only for the named addressee(s).
    "Darren G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I guess this is mainly aimed at Paul, but any other views welcome ...

    Just made the effort to start working more in RAW and was wondering what
    is the best :

    1. way of managing files. Currently I'm processing the RAWs to 16-bit
    TIF as a 'reference file' and then generating JPGs from the Tiff for
    'working' copies (I.e. web, sharing, wallpapers, etc.) My thinking is
    that this way I maintain a fully detailed image showing the effects of
    precessing from RAW and hence have a file I can get consistent JPGs
    from. However this does mean that I'm considering buying myself some
    network attached storage to cope with the volumes!!

    2. software to use to process the RAWs (preferably without incurring
    cost). Using the Canon software works... to a fashion, but it is clunky
    to use and the previews are very slow to refresh, making it hard to
    compare the effect of changes 'before & after'. And on first glances it
    doesn't seem to do batch work.

    Cheers

    --
    Darren
    mail to darren not ng

  10. An excellent prog to convert bitmap formats, including batch processing is
    xnview from http://xnview.com/ it is freeware.

    --

    Ted Ferenc. (http://www.ndrw.co.uk)
    This message, and any attachment, is private and confidential.
    It is intended only for the named addressee(s).
    "Darren G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I guess this is mainly aimed at Paul, but any other views welcome ...

    Just made the effort to start working more in RAW and was wondering what
    is the best :

    1. way of managing files. Currently I'm processing the RAWs to 16-bit
    TIF as a 'reference file' and then generating JPGs from the Tiff for
    'working' copies (I.e. web, sharing, wallpapers, etc.) My thinking is
    that this way I maintain a fully detailed image showing the effects of
    precessing from RAW and hence have a file I can get consistent JPGs
    from. However this does mean that I'm considering buying myself some
    network attached storage to cope with the volumes!!

    2. software to use to process the RAWs (preferably without incurring
    cost). Using the Canon software works... to a fashion, but it is clunky
    to use and the previews are very slow to refresh, making it hard to
    compare the effect of changes 'before & after'. And on first glances it
    doesn't seem to do batch work.

    Cheers

    --
    Darren
    mail to darren not ng

  11. Darren G said:

    Just made the effort to start working more in RAW and was wondering
    what is the best :

    1. way of managing files. Currently I'm processing the RAWs to 16-bit
    TIF as a 'reference file' and then generating JPGs from the Tiff for
    'working' copies (I.e. web, sharing, wallpapers, etc.) My thinking is
    that this way I maintain a fully detailed image showing the effects of
    precessing from RAW and hence have a file I can get consistent JPGs
    from.

    This is how I do it.

    1. THE NEGATIVE. The RAW file is the negative. That should never be
    deleted or you'll never have an "original" to go back to. There may be
    better software for converting RAW files in the future.

    2. THE REFERENCE FILE. I batch convert all my RAW files into JPEGs as
    soon as I download them onto the computer. This gives me a complete set
    of JPEGs for convenient viewing and reference, without any processing
    applied. That way I can see exactly what the original image looks like.

    3. THE WORKING FILE. Converting to 16 bit (by opening directly in
    Photoshop) gives me an image suitable for post-processing. I rarely
    save these images, but if I do I save in PSD (Photoshop) format in 16
    bits, complete with layers, masks and extra channels. These files can
    be quite large. When I've finished working on an image I delete any PSD
    files since they are only an intermediate stage - I can always go back
    to the RAW file if I need to reprocess an image. These could be saved
    as TIFFs but I prefer to save them as PSD to avoid any confusion. In
    effect, PSD files are "temporary" files.

    Note: Don't keep 16 bit TIFFs and delete the RAW files! The RAW file
    is the original, not the TIFF, which is partially processed. Only the
    RAW file is "pure". You can lose information even when converting to a
    16 bit TIFF if it's a very high contrast shot. The RAW file allows you
    some additional exposure leeway.

    4. THE MASTER FILE. Once I've finished working on the 16 bit image and
    produced a result that I'm happy with, I flatten all layers, get rid of
    any masks, reduce to 8 bits and save, without resizing or applying any
    sharpening. That's my "master" file - the finished processed image.
    There's no advantage in keeping it in 16 bits, that's only an advantage
    for processing, 8 bits is good enough for the final image and is what
    publishers require. It also saves at a much smaller size as a
    compressed TIFF.

    Note: Do not sharpen the master file! There are three good reasons for
    this. The first is that sharpening degrades the image - it's important
    to keep the master at the highest quality. Secondly, publishers
    generally don't want sharpened files, they prefer to do it themselves.
    Thirdly, sharpening is best done after resizing, not before (see the
    next two points).

    5. THE PRINT FILE. For best print results it's necessary to resize the
    master file to the size required at the chosen dpi, then sharpen
    appropriately. For example, I like to print at 300dpi (which seems to
    be pretty standard amongst publishers), so I set the image dpi to 300,
    then resize it to fit the paper I want to print on. Then I sharpen it,
    it's very important to do this last of all. If you sharpen before
    enlarging an image, you'll be enlarging the sharpening artefacts making
    them more visible in the print. Not good! (This is also why you
    shouldn't do any in-camera sharpening or sharpening at the RAW
    conversion stage.)

    Print sharpening should be stronger than sharpening for onscreen
    viewing, and can be hard to judge. What looks good onscreen may look a
    bit soft on the print, but what looks horrible onscreen can look good on
    the print - best to experiment and do some small print tests first. I
    save this file as a TIFF with the print size appended to the filename,
    so that I know it's a print-ready file, as distinct from the master
    file.

    6. THE WEB FILE. For web use, sharing and wallpapers I reduce the
    master to the required size, sharpen, then save as a jpeg with an
    appropriate suffix. I still haven't decided on a naming system that I'm
    completely happy with yet though.

    So here's an example of all the different files that may relate to a
    single image (taking my watermist blended photo as an example);

    0501020135.CRW & 0501020136.CRW - The digital negatives.
    0501020135.JPG & 0501020136.JPG - The JPEG reference files.
    0501020135.PSD - The working file, 16 bits with layers and masks.
    0501020135.TIF - The master file, 8 bits, no layers, no sharpening.
    0501020135_A4.TIF - Resized and sharpened for printing at A4.
    0501020135_A3+.TIF - Resized and sharpened for printing at A3+.
    watermist.jpg - Web/sharing file.
    watermist_t.jpg - Thumbnail file.
    watermist_wall.jpg - Wallpaper file.

    Of course, not all images will generate this many files. Most generate
    no more than a batch processed JPEG reference file, I only bother to
    work on the best images. I'm into quality rather than quantity, it
    saves a lot of work. :-)

    Quoted message said:

    However this does mean that I'm considering buying myself some
    network attached storage to cope with the volumes!!

    RAW files and JPEGs aren't that big, I suspect it's the 16 bit TIFFs
    that are causing the problems. 8 bit compressed TIFFs aren't that much
    bigger than the RAW files.

    My 6MP RAW files tend to average around 5 meg each, my JPEG reference
    files slightly less than 4 meg each. My "watermist" and "cloudrays"
    shots, when saved as compressed 8 bit TIFFs weigh in at 4.5 and 5 meg
    respectively, no bigger than the RAW files.

    Shots with large smooth areas (like sky) tend to compress better, as do
    unsharpened shots, which is another good reason for not sharpening the
    master files. I chose a shot with a lot of detail and no smooth areas
    (the surfers shot) and saved it in a few different TIFF formats. Take a
    look at these numbers;

    16 bit uncompressed - 36 meg
    16 bit compressed - 45.7 meg !!!

    I have no idea why the compressed TIFF is larger than the uncompressed
    one! Very strange!

    8 bit uncompressed - 18 meg
    8 bit compressed - 7.25 meg
    8 bit compressed & sharpened - 9.9 meg

    As you can see, the 8 bit compressed file is only 50% larger than the
    RAW file, but that's an exception since this is a very detailed image.
    Sharpening the image added nearly another 3 meg!

    Quoted message said:

    2. software to use to process the RAWs (preferably without incurring
    cost). Using the Canon software works... to a fashion, but it is
    clunky to use and the previews are very slow to refresh, making it
    hard to compare the effect of changes 'before & after'.

    I never bothered looking at the previews with the Canon software, far
    too slow. I'd just check the histogram. Provided you don't lose any
    highlight or shadow detail it's much quicker to do a straight conversion
    then make alterations afterwards in PS or whatever. So long as you're
    working in 16 bit mode you don't lose any quality. There's no advantage
    in getting it to look good with the RAW converter, and it's much easier
    to do that afterwards (rather than using the Canon software). The only
    reason to fiddle at the RAW conversion stage is when you have a very
    high contrast image and you need to adjust the exposure and contrast to
    claw back some highlight or shadow detail.

    Quoted message said:

    And on first
    glances it doesn't seem to do batch work.

    It does, just select all the images (Control-A). That's how I batch
    process all my JPEGs. Select all, convert, then leave it running in the
    background. But whatever you do, don't change any of the image settings
    after you've selected all the images or you'll be waiting forever for it
    to update!

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

  12. In message <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Darren G said:

    Just made the effort to start working more in RAW and was wondering
    what is the best :

    1. way of managing files. Currently I'm processing the RAWs to 16-bit
    TIF as a 'reference file' and then generating JPGs from the Tiff for
    'working' copies (I.e. web, sharing, wallpapers, etc.) My thinking is
    that this way I maintain a fully detailed image showing the effects of
    precessing from RAW and hence have a file I can get consistent JPGs
    from.

    This is how I do it.

    1. THE NEGATIVE. The RAW file is the negative. That should never be
    deleted or you'll never have an "original" to go back to. There may be
    better software for converting RAW files in the future.

    Good point.

    Quoted message said:


    2. THE REFERENCE FILE. I batch convert all my RAW files into JPEGs as
    soon as I download them onto the computer. This gives me a complete set
    of JPEGs for convenient viewing and reference, without any processing
    applied. That way I can see exactly what the original image looks like.

    With Capture One you don't need to do this as it shows you the original
    image without need of conversion. The RAW files are the reference files.

    Quoted message said:


    3. THE WORKING FILE. Converting to 16 bit (by opening directly in
    Photoshop) gives me an image suitable for post-processing. I rarely
    save these images, but if I do I save in PSD (Photoshop) format in 16
    bits, complete with layers, masks and extra channels. These files can
    be quite large. When I've finished working on an image I delete any PSD
    files since they are only an intermediate stage - I can always go back
    to the RAW file if I need to reprocess an image. These could be saved
    as TIFFs but I prefer to save them as PSD to avoid any confusion. In
    effect, PSD files are "temporary" files.

    Note: Don't keep 16 bit TIFFs and delete the RAW files! The RAW file
    is the original, not the TIFF, which is partially processed. Only the
    RAW file is "pure". You can lose information even when converting to a
    16 bit TIFF if it's a very high contrast shot. The RAW file allows you
    some additional exposure leeway.

    4. THE MASTER FILE. Once I've finished working on the 16 bit image and
    produced a result that I'm happy with, I flatten all layers, get rid of
    any masks, reduce to 8 bits and save, without resizing or applying any
    sharpening. That's my "master" file - the finished processed image.
    There's no advantage in keeping it in 16 bits, that's only an advantage
    for processing, 8 bits is good enough for the final image and is what
    publishers require. It also saves at a much smaller size as a
    compressed TIFF.

    I do very little post processing. Capture One is adequate for 90% of it.
    Once I've made adjustments in Capture One I save the image in whatever
    format is appropriate - JPEG for the web, TIFF for publication. I only
    use Elements 3 if I need to do some work on the image, which is very
    rare.

    Quoted message said:


    Note: Do not sharpen the master file! There are three good reasons for
    this. The first is that sharpening degrades the image - it's important
    to keep the master at the highest quality. Secondly, publishers
    generally don't want sharpened files, they prefer to do it themselves.
    Thirdly, sharpening is best done after resizing, not before (see the
    next two points).

    An important point. It's also a reason for taking RAW files in the first
    place - it avoids in-camera processing, which includes sharpening.

    Quoted message said:


    5. THE PRINT FILE. For best print results it's necessary to resize the
    master file to the size required at the chosen dpi, then sharpen
    appropriately. For example, I like to print at 300dpi (which seems to
    be pretty standard amongst publishers), so I set the image dpi to 300,
    then resize it to fit the paper I want to print on. Then I sharpen it,
    it's very important to do this last of all. If you sharpen before
    enlarging an image, you'll be enlarging the sharpening artefacts making
    them more visible in the print. Not good! (This is also why you
    shouldn't do any in-camera sharpening or sharpening at the RAW
    conversion stage.)

    Print sharpening should be stronger than sharpening for onscreen
    viewing, and can be hard to judge. What looks good onscreen may look a
    bit soft on the print, but what looks horrible onscreen can look good on
    the print - best to experiment and do some small print tests first. I
    save this file as a TIFF with the print size appended to the filename,
    so that I know it's a print-ready file, as distinct from the master
    file.

    6. THE WEB FILE. For web use, sharing and wallpapers I reduce the
    master to the required size, sharpen, then save as a jpeg with an
    appropriate suffix. I still haven't decided on a naming system that I'm
    completely happy with yet though.

    So here's an example of all the different files that may relate to a
    single image (taking my watermist blended photo as an example);

    0501020135.CRW & 0501020136.CRW - The digital negatives.
    0501020135.JPG & 0501020136.JPG - The JPEG reference files.
    0501020135.PSD - The working file, 16 bits with layers and masks.
    0501020135.TIF - The master file, 8 bits, no layers, no sharpening.
    0501020135_A4.TIF - Resized and sharpened for printing at A4.
    0501020135_A3+.TIF - Resized and sharpened for printing at A3+.
    watermist.jpg - Web/sharing file.
    watermist_t.jpg - Thumbnail file.
    watermist_wall.jpg - Wallpaper file.

    Of course, not all images will generate this many files. Most generate
    no more than a batch processed JPEG reference file, I only bother to
    work on the best images. I'm into quality rather than quantity, it
    saves a lot of work. :-)

    Most of my images never get beyond the RAW stage.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    However this does mean that I'm considering buying myself some
    network attached storage to cope with the volumes!!

    RAW files and JPEGs aren't that big, I suspect it's the 16 bit TIFFs
    that are causing the problems. 8 bit compressed TIFFs aren't that much
    bigger than the RAW files.

    My 6MP RAW files tend to average around 5 meg each, my JPEG reference
    files slightly less than 4 meg each. My "watermist" and "cloudrays"
    shots, when saved as compressed 8 bit TIFFs weigh in at 4.5 and 5 meg
    respectively, no bigger than the RAW files.

    Shots with large smooth areas (like sky) tend to compress better, as do
    unsharpened shots, which is another good reason for not sharpening the
    master files. I chose a shot with a lot of detail and no smooth areas
    (the surfers shot) and saved it in a few different TIFF formats. Take a
    look at these numbers;

    16 bit uncompressed - 36 meg
    16 bit compressed - 45.7 meg !!!

    I have no idea why the compressed TIFF is larger than the uncompressed
    one! Very strange!

    8 bit uncompressed - 18 meg
    8 bit compressed - 7.25 meg
    8 bit compressed & sharpened - 9.9 meg

    As you can see, the 8 bit compressed file is only 50% larger than the
    RAW file, but that's an exception since this is a very detailed image.
    Sharpening the image added nearly another 3 meg!

    Quoted message said:

    2. software to use to process the RAWs (preferably without incurring
    cost). Using the Canon software works... to a fashion, but it is
    clunky to use and the previews are very slow to refresh, making it
    hard to compare the effect of changes 'before & after'.

    I never bothered looking at the previews with the Canon software, far
    too slow. I'd just check the histogram. Provided you don't lose any
    highlight or shadow detail it's much quicker to do a straight conversion
    then make alterations afterwards in PS or whatever. So long as you're
    working in 16 bit mode you don't lose any quality. There's no advantage
    in getting it to look good with the RAW converter, and it's much easier
    to do that afterwards (rather than using the Canon software). The only
    reason to fiddle at the RAW conversion stage is when you have a very
    high contrast image and you need to adjust the exposure and contrast to
    claw back some highlight or shadow detail.

    Quoted message said:

    And on first
    glances it doesn't seem to do batch work.

    It does, just select all the images (Control-A). That's how I batch
    process all my JPEGs. Select all, convert, then leave it running in the
    background. But whatever you do, don't change any of the image settings
    after you've selected all the images or you'll be waiting forever for it
    to update!

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

  13. In article <[email hidden]>, Chris Townsend
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    I find Capture One excellent. Elements 3 will process RAW files but I
    don't find it as easy or effective. In C1 SE you can see the image in
    detail and make any necessary adjustments when you process it to a Tiff
    or JPEG. I rarely do any processing in Elements any more. C1 SE is more
    than adequate for most images.

    Hi Chris,

    Don't you find that there is little processing to do to the RAW file in
    general that is? I find that it is often better to leave something for
    Photoshop to deal with seeing it has a more extensive armoury.

    Your comments are appreciated, all grist to the mill as they say.
    --
    Bill Grey
    http://www.billboy.co.uk

  14. In message <[email hidden]>, W. D. Grey
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Chris Townsend
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    I find Capture One excellent. Elements 3 will process RAW files but I
    don't find it as easy or effective. In C1 SE you can see the image in
    detail and make any necessary adjustments when you process it to a
    Tiff or JPEG. I rarely do any processing in Elements any more. C1 SE
    is more than adequate for most images.

    Hi Chris,

    Don't you find that there is little processing to do to the RAW file in
    general that is? I find that it is often better to leave something for
    Photoshop to deal with seeing it has a more extensive armoury.

    I still try and take the best image I can in camera :-)

    Are you using Capture One? It has white balance control, exposure
    control, contrast control, colour saturation control, levels, curves,
    sharpening and more. I rarely use most of these, let alone anything in
    Elements.

    If I do any processing at all it's with the exposure and contrast
    controls and, more rarely, colour saturation. However I've now had quite
    a few images published taken with the 300D and all have been straight
    conversions from the RAW file to a TIFF or JPEG.

    Quoted message said:


    Your comments are appreciated, all grist to the mill as they say.

    Thanks. It's an interesting topic - for some of us :-)

  15. In article <[email hidden]>, Chris Townsend
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Don't you find that there is little processing to do to the RAW file
    in general that is? I find that it is often better to leave something
    for Photoshop to deal with seeing it has a more extensive armoury.

    I still try and take the best image I can in camera :-)

    Are you using Capture One?


    No I use PS which has most of the items you mentioned, Importantly the
    exposure control and Colour temperature control (White Balance)
    Saturarion , contrast Shadow etc.

    I does me very well. I've not heard of the other programs till you
    mentioned them.

    Quoted message said:


    If I do any processing at all it's with the exposure and contrast
    controls and, more rarely, colour saturation. However I've now had
    quite a few images published taken with the 300D and all have been
    straight conversions from the RAW file to a TIFF or JPEG.

    Same here except as per the advice from Paul I save as 16 bit tiffs.

    I take it you're enjoying the 300D ?

    --
    Bill Grey
    http://www.billboy.co.uk

  16. In message <[email hidden]>, W. D. Grey
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Chris Townsend
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Don't you find that there is little processing to do to the RAW file
    in general that is? I find that it is often better to leave something
    for Photoshop to deal with seeing it has a more extensive armoury.

    I still try and take the best image I can in camera :-)

    Are you using Capture One?


    No I use PS which has most of the items you mentioned, Importantly the
    exposure control and Colour temperature control (White Balance)
    Saturarion , contrast Shadow etc.

    I does me very well. I've not heard of the other programs till you
    mentioned them.

    I bought Capture One because I wanted to be able to process RAW files
    quickly and efficiently - which the Canon software didn't do and neither
    did the then current Photoshop or Elements.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    If I do any processing at all it's with the exposure and contrast
    controls and, more rarely, colour saturation. However I've now had
    quite a few images published taken with the 300D and all have been
    straight conversions from the RAW file to a TIFF or JPEG.

    Same here except as per the advice from Paul I save as 16 bit tiffs.

    I save as 16 bit TIFFS as well, when I save TIFFS, but convert them to 8
    bit TIFFS or JPEGS for publishers, as that's what they want.

    Quoted message said:


    I take it you're enjoying the 300D ?


    Very much. I'm very happy that publishers like the results from it too
    :-).

  17. In article <[email hidden]>, pvs1
    @wildwales.fsnet.co.uk says...

    Quoted message said:
    Darren G said:

    Just made the effort to start working more in RAW and was wondering
    what is the best :

    1. way of managing files. Currently I'm processing the RAWs to 16-bit
    TIF as a 'reference file' and then generating JPGs from the Tiff for
    'working' copies (I.e. web, sharing, wallpapers, etc.) My thinking is
    that this way I maintain a fully detailed image showing the effects of
    precessing from RAW and hence have a file I can get consistent JPGs
    from.

    This is how I do it.

    1. THE NEGATIVE. The RAW file is the negative. That should never be
    deleted or you'll never have an "original" to go back to. There may be
    better software for converting RAW files in the future.

    2. THE REFERENCE FILE. I batch convert all my RAW files into JPEGs as
    soon as I download them onto the computer. This gives me a complete set
    of JPEGs for convenient viewing and reference, without any processing
    applied. That way I can see exactly what the original image looks like.

    3. THE WORKING FILE. Converting to 16 bit (by opening directly in
    Photoshop) gives me an image suitable for post-processing. I rarely
    save these images, but if I do I save in PSD (Photoshop) format in 16
    bits, complete with layers, masks and extra channels. These files can
    be quite large. When I've finished working on an image I delete any PSD
    files since they are only an intermediate stage - I can always go back
    to the RAW file if I need to reprocess an image. These could be saved
    as TIFFs but I prefer to save them as PSD to avoid any confusion. In
    effect, PSD files are "temporary" files.

    Note: Don't keep 16 bit TIFFs and delete the RAW files! The RAW file
    is the original, not the TIFF, which is partially processed. Only the
    RAW file is "pure". You can lose information even when converting to a
    16 bit TIFF if it's a very high contrast shot. The RAW file allows you
    some additional exposure leeway.

    4. THE MASTER FILE. Once I've finished working on the 16 bit image and
    produced a result that I'm happy with, I flatten all layers, get rid of
    any masks, reduce to 8 bits and save, without resizing or applying any
    sharpening. That's my "master" file - the finished processed image.
    There's no advantage in keeping it in 16 bits, that's only an advantage
    for processing, 8 bits is good enough for the final image and is what
    publishers require. It also saves at a much smaller size as a
    compressed TIFF.

    Note: Do not sharpen the master file! There are three good reasons for
    this. The first is that sharpening degrades the image - it's important
    to keep the master at the highest quality. Secondly, publishers
    generally don't want sharpened files, they prefer to do it themselves.
    Thirdly, sharpening is best done after resizing, not before (see the
    next two points).

    5. THE PRINT FILE. For best print results it's necessary to resize the
    master file to the size required at the chosen dpi, then sharpen
    appropriately. For example, I like to print at 300dpi (which seems to
    be pretty standard amongst publishers), so I set the image dpi to 300,
    then resize it to fit the paper I want to print on. Then I sharpen it,
    it's very important to do this last of all. If you sharpen before
    enlarging an image, you'll be enlarging the sharpening artefacts making
    them more visible in the print. Not good! (This is also why you
    shouldn't do any in-camera sharpening or sharpening at the RAW
    conversion stage.)

    Print sharpening should be stronger than sharpening for onscreen
    viewing, and can be hard to judge. What looks good onscreen may look a
    bit soft on the print, but what looks horrible onscreen can look good on
    the print - best to experiment and do some small print tests first. I
    save this file as a TIFF with the print size appended to the filename,
    so that I know it's a print-ready file, as distinct from the master
    file.

    6. THE WEB FILE. For web use, sharing and wallpapers I reduce the
    master to the required size, sharpen, then save as a jpeg with an
    appropriate suffix. I still haven't decided on a naming system that I'm
    completely happy with yet though.

    So here's an example of all the different files that may relate to a
    single image (taking my watermist blended photo as an example);

    0501020135.CRW & 0501020136.CRW - The digital negatives.
    0501020135.JPG & 0501020136.JPG - The JPEG reference files.
    0501020135.PSD - The working file, 16 bits with layers and masks.
    0501020135.TIF - The master file, 8 bits, no layers, no sharpening.
    0501020135_A4.TIF - Resized and sharpened for printing at A4.
    0501020135_A3+.TIF - Resized and sharpened for printing at A3+.
    watermist.jpg - Web/sharing file.
    watermist_t.jpg - Thumbnail file.
    watermist_wall.jpg - Wallpaper file.

    Of course, not all images will generate this many files. Most generate
    no more than a batch processed JPEG reference file, I only bother to
    work on the best images. I'm into quality rather than quantity, it
    saves a lot of work. :-)

    Quoted message said:

    However this does mean that I'm considering buying myself some
    network attached storage to cope with the volumes!!

    RAW files and JPEGs aren't that big, I suspect it's the 16 bit TIFFs
    that are causing the problems. 8 bit compressed TIFFs aren't that much
    bigger than the RAW files.

    My 6MP RAW files tend to average around 5 meg each, my JPEG reference
    files slightly less than 4 meg each. My "watermist" and "cloudrays"
    shots, when saved as compressed 8 bit TIFFs weigh in at 4.5 and 5 meg
    respectively, no bigger than the RAW files.

    Shots with large smooth areas (like sky) tend to compress better, as do
    unsharpened shots, which is another good reason for not sharpening the
    master files. I chose a shot with a lot of detail and no smooth areas
    (the surfers shot) and saved it in a few different TIFF formats. Take a
    look at these numbers;

    16 bit uncompressed - 36 meg
    16 bit compressed - 45.7 meg !!!

    I have no idea why the compressed TIFF is larger than the uncompressed
    one! Very strange!

    8 bit uncompressed - 18 meg
    8 bit compressed - 7.25 meg
    8 bit compressed & sharpened - 9.9 meg

    As you can see, the 8 bit compressed file is only 50% larger than the
    RAW file, but that's an exception since this is a very detailed image.
    Sharpening the image added nearly another 3 meg!

    Quoted message said:

    2. software to use to process the RAWs (preferably without incurring
    cost). Using the Canon software works... to a fashion, but it is
    clunky to use and the previews are very slow to refresh, making it
    hard to compare the effect of changes 'before & after'.

    I never bothered looking at the previews with the Canon software, far
    too slow. I'd just check the histogram. Provided you don't lose any
    highlight or shadow detail it's much quicker to do a straight conversion
    then make alterations afterwards in PS or whatever. So long as you're
    working in 16 bit mode you don't lose any quality. There's no advantage
    in getting it to look good with the RAW converter, and it's much easier
    to do that afterwards (rather than using the Canon software). The only
    reason to fiddle at the RAW conversion stage is when you have a very
    high contrast image and you need to adjust the exposure and contrast to
    claw back some highlight or shadow detail.

    Quoted message said:

    And on first
    glances it doesn't seem to do batch work.

    It does, just select all the images (Control-A). That's how I batch
    process all my JPEGs. Select all, convert, then leave it running in the
    background. But whatever you do, don't change any of the image settings
    after you've selected all the images or you'll be waiting forever for it
    to update!

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

    Cheers Paul. I knew you'd have given it some thought and come up with a
    comprehensive solution!

    And I like it, though whether I bother with the reference print and how
    a generate a working master will depend on what software I'm going to
    use. Currently I'm impressed with C1, it seems to do all the common
    things well, esp. as Elements 2 cannot handle RAWs (or any 16 bit images
    AFAIA).

    Question is: do I spend a lot on PS and get the works, or do the 80:20
    (or probably 90:10) and get C1. Decisions, decisions...

    --
    Darren
    mail to darren not ng

  18. In message <[email hidden]>, Darren G
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, pvs1
    @wildwales.fsnet.co.uk says...

    Quoted message said:
    Darren G said:

    Just made the effort to start working more in RAW and was wondering
    what is the best :

    1. way of managing files. Currently I'm processing the RAWs to 16-bit
    TIF as a 'reference file' and then generating JPGs from the Tiff for
    'working' copies (I.e. web, sharing, wallpapers, etc.) My thinking is
    that this way I maintain a fully detailed image showing the effects of
    precessing from RAW and hence have a file I can get consistent JPGs
    from.

    This is how I do it.

    1. THE NEGATIVE. The RAW file is the negative. That should never be
    deleted or you'll never have an "original" to go back to. There may be
    better software for converting RAW files in the future.

    2. THE REFERENCE FILE. I batch convert all my RAW files into JPEGs as
    soon as I download them onto the computer. This gives me a complete set
    of JPEGs for convenient viewing and reference, without any processing
    applied. That way I can see exactly what the original image looks like.

    3. THE WORKING FILE. Converting to 16 bit (by opening directly in
    Photoshop) gives me an image suitable for post-processing. I rarely
    save these images, but if I do I save in PSD (Photoshop) format in 16
    bits, complete with layers, masks and extra channels. These files can
    be quite large. When I've finished working on an image I delete any PSD
    files since they are only an intermediate stage - I can always go back
    to the RAW file if I need to reprocess an image. These could be saved
    as TIFFs but I prefer to save them as PSD to avoid any confusion. In
    effect, PSD files are "temporary" files.

    Note: Don't keep 16 bit TIFFs and delete the RAW files! The RAW file
    is the original, not the TIFF, which is partially processed. Only the
    RAW file is "pure". You can lose information even when converting to a
    16 bit TIFF if it's a very high contrast shot. The RAW file allows you
    some additional exposure leeway.

    4. THE MASTER FILE. Once I've finished working on the 16 bit image and
    produced a result that I'm happy with, I flatten all layers, get rid of
    any masks, reduce to 8 bits and save, without resizing or applying any
    sharpening. That's my "master" file - the finished processed image.
    There's no advantage in keeping it in 16 bits, that's only an advantage
    for processing, 8 bits is good enough for the final image and is what
    publishers require. It also saves at a much smaller size as a
    compressed TIFF.

    Note: Do not sharpen the master file! There are three good reasons for
    this. The first is that sharpening degrades the image - it's important
    to keep the master at the highest quality. Secondly, publishers
    generally don't want sharpened files, they prefer to do it themselves.
    Thirdly, sharpening is best done after resizing, not before (see the
    next two points).

    5. THE PRINT FILE. For best print results it's necessary to resize the
    master file to the size required at the chosen dpi, then sharpen
    appropriately. For example, I like to print at 300dpi (which seems to
    be pretty standard amongst publishers), so I set the image dpi to 300,
    then resize it to fit the paper I want to print on. Then I sharpen it,
    it's very important to do this last of all. If you sharpen before
    enlarging an image, you'll be enlarging the sharpening artefacts making
    them more visible in the print. Not good! (This is also why you
    shouldn't do any in-camera sharpening or sharpening at the RAW
    conversion stage.)

    Print sharpening should be stronger than sharpening for onscreen
    viewing, and can be hard to judge. What looks good onscreen may look a
    bit soft on the print, but what looks horrible onscreen can look good on
    the print - best to experiment and do some small print tests first. I
    save this file as a TIFF with the print size appended to the filename,
    so that I know it's a print-ready file, as distinct from the master
    file.

    6. THE WEB FILE. For web use, sharing and wallpapers I reduce the
    master to the required size, sharpen, then save as a jpeg with an
    appropriate suffix. I still haven't decided on a naming system that I'm
    completely happy with yet though.

    So here's an example of all the different files that may relate to a
    single image (taking my watermist blended photo as an example);

    0501020135.CRW & 0501020136.CRW - The digital negatives.
    0501020135.JPG & 0501020136.JPG - The JPEG reference files.
    0501020135.PSD - The working file, 16 bits with layers and masks.
    0501020135.TIF - The master file, 8 bits, no layers, no sharpening.
    0501020135_A4.TIF - Resized and sharpened for printing at A4.
    0501020135_A3+.TIF - Resized and sharpened for printing at A3+.
    watermist.jpg - Web/sharing file.
    watermist_t.jpg - Thumbnail file.
    watermist_wall.jpg - Wallpaper file.

    Of course, not all images will generate this many files. Most generate
    no more than a batch processed JPEG reference file, I only bother to
    work on the best images. I'm into quality rather than quantity, it
    saves a lot of work. :-)

    Quoted message said:

    However this does mean that I'm considering buying myself some
    network attached storage to cope with the volumes!!

    RAW files and JPEGs aren't that big, I suspect it's the 16 bit TIFFs
    that are causing the problems. 8 bit compressed TIFFs aren't that much
    bigger than the RAW files.

    My 6MP RAW files tend to average around 5 meg each, my JPEG reference
    files slightly less than 4 meg each. My "watermist" and "cloudrays"
    shots, when saved as compressed 8 bit TIFFs weigh in at 4.5 and 5 meg
    respectively, no bigger than the RAW files.

    Shots with large smooth areas (like sky) tend to compress better, as do
    unsharpened shots, which is another good reason for not sharpening the
    master files. I chose a shot with a lot of detail and no smooth areas
    (the surfers shot) and saved it in a few different TIFF formats. Take a
    look at these numbers;

    16 bit uncompressed - 36 meg
    16 bit compressed - 45.7 meg !!!

    I have no idea why the compressed TIFF is larger than the uncompressed
    one! Very strange!

    8 bit uncompressed - 18 meg
    8 bit compressed - 7.25 meg
    8 bit compressed & sharpened - 9.9 meg

    As you can see, the 8 bit compressed file is only 50% larger than the
    RAW file, but that's an exception since this is a very detailed image.
    Sharpening the image added nearly another 3 meg!

    Quoted message said:

    2. software to use to process the RAWs (preferably without incurring
    cost). Using the Canon software works... to a fashion, but it is
    clunky to use and the previews are very slow to refresh, making it
    hard to compare the effect of changes 'before & after'.

    I never bothered looking at the previews with the Canon software, far
    too slow. I'd just check the histogram. Provided you don't lose any
    highlight or shadow detail it's much quicker to do a straight conversion
    then make alterations afterwards in PS or whatever. So long as you're
    working in 16 bit mode you don't lose any quality. There's no advantage
    in getting it to look good with the RAW converter, and it's much easier
    to do that afterwards (rather than using the Canon software). The only
    reason to fiddle at the RAW conversion stage is when you have a very
    high contrast image and you need to adjust the exposure and contrast to
    claw back some highlight or shadow detail.

    Quoted message said:

    And on first
    glances it doesn't seem to do batch work.

    It does, just select all the images (Control-A). That's how I batch
    process all my JPEGs. Select all, convert, then leave it running in the
    background. But whatever you do, don't change any of the image settings
    after you've selected all the images or you'll be waiting forever for it
    to update!

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

    Cheers Paul. I knew you'd have given it some thought and come up with a
    comprehensive solution!

    And I like it, though whether I bother with the reference print and how
    a generate a working master will depend on what software I'm going to
    use. Currently I'm impressed with C1, it seems to do all the common
    things well, esp. as Elements 2 cannot handle RAWs (or any 16 bit images
    AFAIA).

    Question is: do I spend a lot on PS and get the works, or do the 80:20
    (or probably 90:10) and get C1. Decisions, decisions...


    I think using C1 makes the workflow simpler than in Paul's description
    as you don't need a reference file.

    There don't appear to be any quality disadvantages in using C1. Dozens
    of images I've processed with it have appeared in print over the last
    year and many more will appear soon. All the publishers have been happy
    with the quality of the images.

    Of course if you want to do much post processing, especially some
    complex manipulation, Photoshop is probably the best choice.

  19. Chris Townsend <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:


    I still try and take the best image I can in camera :-)


    Isn't that what REAL photographers always do?
    ;-)
    --
    Gordon Harris

  20. "Darren G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    <snip>

    | 2. software to use to process the RAWs (preferably without incurring
    | cost). Using the Canon software works... to a fashion, but it is clunky
    | to use and the previews are very slow to refresh, making it hard to
    | compare the effect of changes 'before & after'. And on first glances it
    | doesn't seem to do batch work.
    |
    | Cheers
    |
    | --
    | Darren

    I've got a 20D, and it came with Canon Digital Photo Professional (DPP),
    which I assume also comes with the 300D? I never even bothered installing
    it because I always assumed the manufacturer's software was rubbish, and I
    also assumed that the EOS File Viewer utility was the RAW converter (which
    it isn't)! ...That is, until a friend recommended DPP.

    He used to use Capture 1, but whilst waiting for this to support the 20D (it
    now does for the Mac, but not yet for the PC), he started to use DPP and
    actually liked the results! I've upgraded this to DPP 1.5 now
    (http://software.canon-europe.com/Cameras/SLR_Cameras/EOS_20D10131.asp), and
    I'm finding that it is actually okay to work with (albeit slightly 'clunky'
    to use, as you say), even though I've also got Photoshop CS with Adobe
    Camera RAW (ACR). The results are very good.

    It does batch processing and generates quick previews etc, and even has a
    before/after view which is instant (you can split an image, or have two
    images for the before and after). I've got a slow PC, an Athlon 1Ghz, but
    this works quite quickly. There are several basic tutorials on DPP here:
    http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/dpp/index.html

    Best of all, it's free! If you just want to convert RAW files, then I'm
    sure it would do you. However, in my workflow, I'm finding that I convert
    the RAW files (with a bit of editing for white balance, any exposure
    compensation if needed, hue & saturation adjustment) to 16 bit TIF's, then
    load them into Photoshop for a bit of Levels adjustment, sharpening etc.

    Good luck!

    Ste

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