Turning without countersteering: photographs and test results

Simon Brooke said:

I've plenty more photographs if you _really_ want to make a fool of
yourself.

TBPH, I'm not at all interested in your research, but can you post some nice
pics of the views up there. It is a particularly dull and mild winter's day
down here on the English south coast (this weather pattern is
interminable -- I'd even prefer rain) and I could do with some scenery.

Simon Brooke said:

So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on this
picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG> and
point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.

Yebbut which wheel is which? ;-)

TBH I think this is another one of those pointless arguments.
Especially in my case - with an 18" tiller I'm not sure I could move
the steering fast enough to countersteer anyway.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Simon, would you mind posting or x-posting a copy of your message to
rec.bicycles.tech ? The replies are bound to be interesting and fun.

~PB

Simon Brooke wrote:

[cluelessness deleted]

Quoted message said:

So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on this
picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG> and
point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.

Right under your nose, you dullard. Just where the rear tyre (heavy
track) turns left, the lighter track (front tyre) turns briefly but
clearly to the right! I'm talking about the section from where the
tracks separate, until the front wheel goes over some mark in the sand
(maybe a foot, hard to tell with no scale). Put a straight edge up
agains the screen and it is pretty obvious. Of course the front wheel
got to that separation point first, proving that this countersteering
action was the source of the turn.

Quoted message said:

I've plenty more photographs if you _really_ want to make a fool of
yourself.

Feel free. I suggest you use thinner tyres on a firm surface next time,
I'm sure it never crossed your mind but using fat tyres on a soft
surface substantially alters the situation - make the sand soft enough,
and of course anyone can "balance" even a stationary bike, but that is
hardly relevant to the original point. Your trick of using a beach gives
yourself something like a 3" wide contact patch with sloping edges which
may change the difficulty of balancing a non-steering bike from a circus
trick to something within the realm of a normal cyclist. Nevertheless,
the countersteer is still there.

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

Ok, since you went to all that trouble, I'll write a more detailed reply.

Simon Brooke said:

This morning is glorious. And given that it is glorious I thought it was
an appropriate time to take the photographs I promised James.

Firstly: can you ride a bicycle with locked steering? Having tried to
set this up, the answer, against my intuition, is that I think you can.

At this point, I think it should be clear that your experiment is not
relevant to normal riding since one thing on which everyone agrees is
that it is not generally possible to ride a normal bicycle with the
steering locked straight ahead (at least by a normal rider). Possible
weaknesses in your test are the residual slack in the steering (why am I
writing this, you admit you could steer). You may, of course, just be
extraordinarily skilled, or your choice of tyres might move the problem
into the realm of the possible (leaning will move the contact patch
sideqays by a bit, and a particularly stiff/knobbly tyre might give you
an even greater advantage). Whatever, either you are steering or you are
not riding the bike normally!

An easy way to properly lock the steering is to overtighten the headset.
Then even if you can turn the bars by force, they will not move in
hands-off riding. For that matter, did you even ride your trussed-up
bike hands off? If you were managing by balance alone rather than
forcing the steering, then having your arms free would surely make it
easier rather than harder.

Quoted message said:

Second, can you ride a bike which _cannot_ counter-steer? Yes, it's
easy. I tied just one handlebar so that the steering could be turned
freely in one direction, but its absolute limit in the other direction
was straight ahead. This rig was only slightly more difficult to ride
than a normal bike. However as all course corrections were to one side
and the only means of straightening up or turning the other way was
bunny-hopping it wasn't easy to ride straight.

This "test" is nonsense. Such a bicycle can obviously be ridden in a
gentle curve (as you found) so long as you do not overbalance to the
unsteerable side. In this context, the countersteering you are doing is
relative to the gentle curve, the contact patch can be steered to either
side of the equilibrium position to maintain your balance. Make the
curve gentle enough (or even allow yourself a degree of steer to the
locked side) and it might feel like a straight line with just the odd
wobble to one side.

I've already dealt with the rest.

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Simon, would you mind posting or x-posting a copy of your message to
rec.bicycles.tech ? The replies are bound to be interesting and fun.

Frankly I'm bored of this, and the last thing I want to get involved in
is yet another tedious religious flame war. People have the most absurd
theories about how bikes work, and they don't much like real world
experiments which disprove their shibboleths.

But if you want to, feel free. As I say, I've plenty more photographs,
and if someone has the bandwidth to host it I'm perfectly happy to
shoot some movie footage.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I'll have a proper rant later, when I get the time.

in message <[email hidden]>, Just zis Guy,

you know? (') said:

Simon Brooke said:

So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on
this picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG>
and point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.

Yebbut which wheel is which? ;-)

TBH I think this is another one of those pointless arguments.
Especially in my case - with an 18" tiller I'm not sure I could move
the steering fast enough to countersteer anyway.

It is. I simply get irritated by people declaiming from on high that
'the earth is flat' when ten minutes of real-world experimentation will
show clearly that it is not.

This reminds me of the argument on rec.bicycle.tech where I demonstrated
- by posting a movie - that gyroscopic precession is not the major
factor in bicycle steering, and Jobst Brandt got so tied up in his own
ego that he was reduced to accusing me of faking the movie. I'm just
looking forward to James saying that either (i) the bike must have been
pushed with long poles or (ii) I have doctored the photographs.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Just as defying the law of gravity through building aircraft requires
careful design and a lot of effort, so too does defying laws of
economics. It seems to be a deeply ingrained aspect of humanity to
forever strive to improve things, so unquestioning acceptance of a
free market system seems to me to be unnatural. ;; Charles Bryant

Simon Brooke popped their head over the parapet saw what was going on
and said

Quoted message said:

So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on
this picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG>
and point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.

Know virtualy nothing about this counter steering argument
but couldn't you have cropped/reduced in size that photo.
it seemed to take forever to download and I am on 1Mb
someone on dial-up would surely get fed up waiting before
all the pic. had downloaded

--
yours S

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione

On 15/12/04 12:15 pm, in article [email hidden],

Simonb said:

Simon Brooke said:

I've plenty more photographs if you _really_ want to make a fool of
yourself.

TBPH, I'm not at all interested in your research, but can you post some nice
pics of the views up there. It is a particularly dull and mild winter's day
down here on the English south coast (this weather pattern is
interminable -- I'd even prefer rain) and I could do with some scenery.

how about this from Sunday morning?
<URL:http://www.compbio.dundee.ac.uk/~dmamartin/small_IMG_1838.JPG>

...d

On 15/12/04 12:59 pm, in article [email hidden], "James

Annan said:

Your trick of using a beach gives
yourself something like a 3" wide contact patch with sloping edges which
may change the difficulty of balancing a non-steering bike from a circus
trick to something within the realm of a normal cyclist. Nevertheless,
the countersteer is still there.

Umm.. he did ride it on a firm surface first but used the beach to get the
tracks..

...d

in message <[email hidden]>, James Annan

(') said:

Simon Brooke wrote:

[cluelessness deleted]

Quoted message said:

So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on
this picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG>
and point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.

Right under your nose, you dullard. Just where the rear tyre (heavy
track) turns left, the lighter track (front tyre) turns briefly but
clearly to the right! I'm talking about the section from where the
tracks separate, until the front wheel goes over some mark in the sand
(maybe a foot, hard to tell with no scale).

Mark it on the photo, and post it on a website for everyone to see.

Quoted message said:

Put a straight edge up
agains the screen and it is pretty obvious. Of course the front wheel
got to that separation point first, proving that this countersteering
action was the source of the turn.

Quoted message said:

I've plenty more photographs if you _really_ want to make a fool of
yourself.

Feel free. I suggest you use thinner tyres on a firm surface next
time, I'm sure it never crossed your mind but using fat tyres on a
soft surface substantially alters the situation - make the sand soft
enough, and of course anyone can "balance" even a stationary bike, but
that is hardly relevant to the original point. Your trick of using a
beach gives yourself something like a 3" wide contact patch with
sloping edges which may change the difficulty of balancing a
non-steering bike from a circus trick to something within the realm of
a normal cyclist. Nevertheless, the countersteer is still there.

I did the tests initially on road bike with 20mm tyres; I repeated them
on the beach to get a photographable track. The width of the tyre makes
not difference at all. It is, of course, substantially easier on
tarmac. I can take - and post - movies if you like.

The benefit of testing first and posting afterwards is you are saved the
embarrassment of eating your words when you have been proved wrong.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

to err is human, to lisp divine
;; attributed to Kim Philby, oddly enough.

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b4t592->

Quoted message said:

Frankly I'm bored of this, and the last thing I want to get involved in
is yet another tedious religious flame war. People have the most absurd
theories about how bikes work, and they don't much like real world
experiments which disprove their shibboleths.

I've not gone to your lengths, but I find I can steer to the left at slow
speed by turning my bars left, that's how I keep my body upright on slippery
roads. I can also dive left at speed by moving the bars to the right.

Has there been some "previous" to this debate somewhere else? It's seemed to
"kick off" early doors IMHO ;-)

--
Simon M.

Simon Mason said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b4t592->

Quoted message said:

Frankly I'm bored of this, and the last thing I want to get involved
in is yet another tedious religious flame war. People have the most
absurd theories about how bikes work, and they don't much like real
world experiments which disprove their shibboleths.

I've not gone to your lengths, but I find I can steer to the left at
slow speed by turning my bars left, that's how I keep my body upright
on slippery roads.

Try it on dry tarmac after riding through a puddle, then examine the tyre
tracks.

Quoted message said:

I can also dive left at speed by moving the bars
to the right.

Has there been some "previous" to this debate somewhere else?

A lot on rec.bicycles.tech and I think some here too.

Quoted message said:

It's
seemed to "kick off" early doors IMHO ;-)

~PB

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This morning is glorious. And given that it is glorious I thought it was
an appropriate time to take the photographs I promised James.

Firstly: can you ride a bicycle with locked steering? Having tried to
set this up, the answer, against my intuition, is that I think you can.

Ride? For how far? Even if it demonstrably _can_ be done by someone with
exceptionally good balance - and at slow speed and for short distances - I
don't think it changes anything about the theory of how people stay upright
riding a bicycle...

Quoted message said:

Second, can you ride a bike which _cannot_ counter-steer?

But that's just part of the same question - can you balance without making
minute steering adjustments to either side? Block the possibility of doing
it one side only and it should certainly be easier than having it locked on
both sides, but still not viable over any distance except as James suggests,
by riding in what amounts to a large radius curve.

Quoted message said:

Thirdly, how tight a turn can you make on a conventional bike without
countersteering?

I must admit I've never really been able to figure out how this
counter-steering point is supposed to work. I suppose I must do it
instinctively because everyone says that's what you need to do to turn, but
despite trying to observe how I make turns I can't see where I countersteer
in most cases - it seems that I just turn the bars in the direction I want
to go and 'fall' (lean) into the turn. Or maybe it's lean and turn in that
order. The only time I catch myself steering away from the corner first is
to either swerve around a pot hole or manhole cover, or to make the radius
of the turn larger to go round it faster.

Rich

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:45:36 +0000, Simon Brooke
<[email hidden]> wrote:

The photograph that is offered is worthless. There is insufficient
contrast to be able to distinguish the front and rear tracks clearly,
and the wide tyres don't help either.

It would be better if you repeated the trial on a hard, level surface
on a bike with narrow tires. A light scattering of sand would provide
evidence of the tyre's tracks, or maybe riding over a patch covered in
newspapers soaked with water. You're a creative guy, you can probably
think of a better method...

you know? said:

Simon Brooke said:

So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on this
picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG> and
point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.

Yebbut which wheel is which? ;-)

TBH I think this is another one of those pointless arguments.
Especially in my case - with an 18" tiller I'm not sure I could move
the steering fast enough to countersteer anyway.

And to think you call yourself an engineer!

in message <[email hidden]>, Richard Goodman

(') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This morning is glorious. And given that it is glorious I thought it
was an appropriate time to take the photographs I promised James.

Firstly: can you ride a bicycle with locked steering? Having tried to
set this up, the answer, against my intuition, is that I think you
can.

Ride? For how far? Even if it demonstrably _can_ be done by someone
with
exceptionally good balance - and at slow speed and for short
distances - I don't think it changes anything about the theory of how
people stay upright riding a bicycle...

No, not really - and as I say I don't think I proved anything as the
bike was able to steer a tiny bit. Slow speed is harder, as with a
conventional bike it steadied up as it got faster. I've no explanation
of why, and I don't know whether it would have been possible at all if
the steering had been truly rigid. As to how far, about 50 metres. It
didn't feel very safe and all I wanted to do was establish whether it
was possible.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Second, can you ride a bike which _cannot_ counter-steer?

But that's just part of the same question - can you balance without
making
minute steering adjustments to either side? Block the possibility of
doing it one side only and it should certainly be easier than having
it locked on both sides, but still not viable over any distance except
as James suggests, by riding in what amounts to a large radius curve.

It's true that (unless you bunny-hop to correct) you do end up going in
a gentle curve even when you're trying to go straight. What's
interesting is that it is quite easy to ride.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thirdly, how tight a turn can you make on a conventional bike without
countersteering?

I must admit I've never really been able to figure out how this
counter-steering point is supposed to work. I suppose I must do it
instinctively because everyone says that's what you need to do to
turn, but despite trying to observe how I make turns I can't see where
I countersteer in most cases - it seems that I just turn the bars in
the direction I want
to go and 'fall' (lean) into the turn.

Which is exactly what you (or at least I) do do. Some people may
habitually counter-steer - it does work, and I've never suggested it
didn't.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and there was nothing left for us to do
but pick up the pieces.

in message <[email hidden]>, Simon Mason

(') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b4t592->

Quoted message said:

Frankly I'm bored of this, and the last thing I want to get involved
in is yet another tedious religious flame war. People have the most
absurd theories about how bikes work, and they don't much like real
world experiments which disprove their shibboleths.

I've not gone to your lengths, but I find I can steer to the left at
slow
speed by turning my bars left, that's how I keep my body upright on
slippery roads. I can also dive left at speed by moving the bars to
the right.

Has there been some "previous" to this debate somewhere else? It's
seemed to "kick off" early doors IMHO ;-)

There's been a very long and tedious thread about it already.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

' ' <------- this blank intentionally spaced left

nobody said:

Quoted message said:

TBH I think this is another one of those pointless arguments.
Especially in my case - with an 18" tiller I'm not sure I could move
the steering fast enough to countersteer anyway.

Quoted message said:

And to think you call yourself an engineer!

Not sure of your point - is it that engineers are supposed to feel
compelled to argue the toss about unimportant things?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound