Maximum slope?

George said:

Hi there, What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on
a bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is
it the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope?

This year's Giro d'Italia had one short section of 27%. Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%. The
steepest road in the world is in New Zealand, and it has been climbed by bicycle:

scasagrande.tripod.comNZ3bOpen ↗
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

"George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi there, What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on
a bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is
it the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher

slope?

Quoted message said:

Maybe The Guiness Book of Records notes some those records? Thanks for any reply, George.

We've measured 25-26% on Mix Canyon Road (also called Top of the World) by Vacaville, CA (measured
with Specialized inclinometer). For all but the fittest racers a triple is mandatory to reach top.
Even then it's difficult to maintain enough speed to remain upright.

I haven't a clue, though, what record is on road bike.

George said:

Hi there, What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on
a bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is
it the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope? Maybe The Guiness Book of Records notes
some those records?

In Los Angeles (Calif) there is "Fargo Street". The Los Angeles Wheelmen report it is 33% (for one
long block). This street is near Dodger Stadium.

In the 80's (and maybe still) the Wheelmen had an (annual?) contest to see who could get up it. A
free embroidered patch was offered to the successful. "Spotters" on foot were enlisted to catch
people falling over. (Don't try putting a foot down on the "low" side!)

The common technique was to tack across the street, limiting the full grade to the turns at the end
of each tack.

In this mode, lots of people get up it. I got my tandem up, after destroying an early-model Phil hub
and also a freewheel.

Now how steep a grade could one include in a normal pro race without absurd results, that's a
different question.

Regards,
--
Mark Janeba remove antispam phrase in address to reply

George said:

Hi there, What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on
a bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is
it the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope? Maybe The Guiness Book of Records notes
some those records?

The steepest streets in San Francisco are reported to have a 31% grade and can be ridden on a
bicycle with proper gearing. Baldwin St. in Dunedin, NZ is reported to be 42% - anybody here
ridden up that?

"Peter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

George said:

Hi there, What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome
on a bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till
23%. Is it the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher

slope?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe The Guiness Book of Records notes some those records?

The steepest streets in San Francisco are reported to have a 31% grade and can be ridden on a
bicycle with proper gearing. Baldwin St. in Dunedin, NZ is reported to be 42% - anybody here
ridden up that?

Nope on NZ, but I've done some climbs in the English Lake District that were signposted at 1 in 3,
or 33%. Hardknot and Wrynose, if memory serves. Also there were others (Honister?) that were posted
at 25%. I knew I was in for something when I saw the tourist buses were little six-wheel AWD things.
I remember seeing a sign at the top of one of the descents saying "cyclists strongly advised to
walk". I had to stop once just to give my hands (& brakes) a rest, since completely letting off the
brakes would've had you up near 70mph in a flash, with no way to slow down enough to make the turns.
Whenever I tried to brake aggressively, the rear wheel kept wanting to float. Very disconcerting,
and made for a memorable moment or two!

Terry Morse said:

Quoted message said:

What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on a bike?
If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is it the
maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope?

Quoted message said:

This year's Giro d'Italia had one short section of 27%. Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%. The
steepest road in the world is in New Zealand, and it has been climbed by bicycle:

Quoted message said:

scasagrande.tripod.comNZ3bOpen ↗

Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. The rider in the picture is neither in a position of
great forceful climbing nor is his equipment up to the task. It seems this is a posed static shot or
the hill is not as steep as claimed. It's hard to tell from an in-line photo. The text is also not
encouraging since 38 degrees is not even walkable, feet facing forward, However, the walking people
have their feet flat on the road. The ankle of the average human cannot approach that angle. Filbert
street uses stairs for pedestrians at 31.5%, this road is 79%. I don't believe it, at least not for
the portion of the road shown. The rider in the picture should do an end-over just holding the rear
brake at this inclination, standing as he is.

# We hopped a bus down to Dunedin (we've seen the east coast before), and found the famous Baldwin
# Street hill, noted in the Guinness Book of World Records as the steepest road in the world at
# 1:1.266, or an astounding 38 degrees. Stairs climb the hill on the sides, and people can get a
# certificate for just walking up the thing.

Where are the real figures?

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

"Mark Janeba" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

George said:

Hi there, What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road,

which is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

possible to overcome on a bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some

mountain stages

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was up till 23%. Is it the maximum, or a man can

overcome the higher slope?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe The Guiness Book of Records notes some those

records?

Quoted message said:

In Los Angeles (Calif) there is "Fargo Street". The Los

Angeles

Quoted message said:

Wheelmen report it is 33% (for one long block). This

street is near

Quoted message said:

Dodger Stadium.

In the 80's (and maybe still) the Wheelmen had an

(annual?) contest to

Quoted message said:

see who could get up it. A free embroidered patch was

offered to the

Quoted message said:

successful. "Spotters" on foot were enlisted to catch

people falling

Quoted message said:

over. (Don't try putting a foot down on the "low" side!)

The common technique was to tack across the street,

limiting the full

Quoted message said:

grade to the turns at the end of each tack.

In this mode, lots of people get up it. I got my tandem

up, after

Quoted message said:

destroying an early-model Phil hub and also a freewheel.

Now how steep a grade could one include in a normal pro

race without

Quoted message said:

absurd results, that's a different question.

The "race" is still on, and was held March 16 this year, according to the LA Wheelmen's website.
Here's another page, with a picture:

home.attbi.comFargoStreet.htmlOpen ↗

This page calls the neighborhood Silverlake but in fact it's Echo Park, which is famous for its
hills. The big street running across the background is Glendale Bl. According to city surveyors,
Fargo St. is actually the steepest, but there are many others in the neighborhood that are nearly as
steep, and some are longer. Some might even be steeper for short stretches. The stretch of Fargo
pictured there is a dead end, the top of the street ending in a stairway that goes to the actual top
of the hill. The really interesting streets are actually on the other side of that hill, behind the
photographer's vantage point. A couple of streets do go over the top of the hill, then another hill
a few blocks away. Baxter St. is probably the most interesting -- the crest of the hill is so sharp
it feels like falling off the end of the earth. Some of these streets have bad pavement, or even
dirt, so bombing down the hills is probably not a good idea if you're not familiar with them.

I encourage anyone visiting LA to explore Echo Park.

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%.

And I believe that the pro's race up that street each year on doubles.

I have done a 30% grade (straight road for about 150m) on a road bike, it really is no big deal with
low gears (I probably was using 28x30).

--------------070501080005010709050509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jobst:

I think you should look at the photo again. Look at the houses in the distance. They are a long ways
down a very short road. Look at the angle of the closest house on the right - which happens to be at
the start of the "relatively flat" section. The lead person walking may be partially on his heel but
is definitely climbing. The second person is entirely on her toes. The rider appears to be in her
lowest granny gear. It also appears that she is just about to transition from a "relatively" flat
section back into a steeper section of the climb - similar to the one that had been crested 50 or so
yards before.

MOO, Matt

Quoted message said:

Terry Morse said:

Quoted message said:

What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on a bike?
If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is it the
maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope?

Quoted message said:

This year's Giro d'Italia had one short section of 27%. Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%. The
steepest road in the world is in New Zealand, and it has been climbed by bicycle:

Quoted message said:

scasagrande.tripod.comNZ3bOpen ↗

Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. The rider in the picture is neither in a position of
great forceful climbing nor is his equipment up to the task. It seems this is a posed static shot
or the hill is not as steep as claimed. It's hard to tell from an in-line photo. The text is also
not encouraging since 38 degrees is not even walkable, feet facing forward, However, the walking
people have their feet flat on the road. The ankle of the average human cannot approach that angle.
Filbert street uses stairs for pedestrians at 31.5%, this road is 79%. I don't believe it, at least
not for the portion of the road shown. The rider in the picture should do an end-over just holding
the rear brake at this inclination, standing as he is.

# We hopped a bus down to Dunedin (we've seen the east coast before), and found the famous Baldwin
# Street hill, noted in the Guinness Book of World Records as the steepest road in the world at
# 1:1.266, or an astounding 38 degrees. Stairs climb the hill on the sides, and people can get a
# certificate for just walking up the thing.

Where are the real figures?

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

--------------070501080005010709050509 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <title></title>
</head> <body> Jobst:<br> <br> I think you should look at the photo again. Look at the houses
in the distance. They are a long ways down a very short road. Look at the angle of the
closest house on the right - which happens to be at the start of the "relatively flat" section.
The lead person walking may be partially on his heel but is definitely climbing. The
second person is entirely on her toes. The rider appears to be in her lowest granny gear.
It also appears that she is just about to transition from a "relatively" flat section back
into a steeper section of the climb - similar to the one that had been crested 50 or so yards
before. <br> <br> MOO,<br> Matt<br> <br> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href=""][email hidden]">[email hidden]</a> wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="[email hidden]"> <pre wrap="">Terry
Morse writes:

</pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">What do you think, what is
the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on a bike? If I remember well on the
Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is it the maximum, or a man can
overcome the higher slope? </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> </pre>
<blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">This year's Giro d'Italia had one short section of 27%.
Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%. The steepest road in the world is in New Zealand, and it
has been climbed by bicycle: </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> </pre> <blockquote
type="cite"> <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="scasagrande.tripod.comNZ3bOpen ↗">scasagrande.tripod.comNZ3bOpen ↗</a> </pre>
</blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. The rider in the
picture is neither in a position of great forceful climbing nor is his equipment up to the task.
It seems this is a posed static shot or the hill is not as steep as claimed. It's hard to tell
from an in-line photo. The text is also not encouraging since 38 degrees is not even walkable,
feet facing forward, However, the walking people have their feet flat on the road. The ankle of
the average human cannot approach that angle. Filbert street uses stairs for pedestrians at
31.5%, this road is 79%. I don't believe it, at least not for the portion of the road shown. The
rider in the picture should do an end-over just holding the rear brake at this inclination,
standing as he is.

# We hopped a bus down to Dunedin (we've seen the east coast before), and found the famous Baldwin
# Street hill, noted in the Guinness Book of World Records as the steepest road in the world at
# 1:1.266, or an astounding 38 degrees. Stairs climb the hill on the sides, and people can get a
# certificate for just walking up the thing.

Where are the real figures?

Jobst Brandt <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href=""][email hidden]">[email hidden]</a> Palo Alto CA
</pre> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html>

--------------070501080005010709050509--

Matt Locker said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on a
> bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%.
> Is it the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This year's Giro d'Italia had one short section of 27%. Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%.
The steepest road in the world is in New Zealand, and it has been climbed by bicycle:

scasagrande.tripod.comNZ3bOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. The rider in the picture is neither in a position of
great forceful climbing nor is his equipment up to the task. It seems this is a posed static shot
or the hill is not as steep as claimed. It's hard to tell from an in-line photo. The text is also
not encouraging since 38 degrees is not even walkable, feet facing forward, However, the walking
people have their feet flat on the road. The ankle of the average human cannot approach that
angle. Filbert street uses stairs for pedestrians at 31.5%, this road is 79%. I don't believe it,
at least not for the portion of the road shown. The rider in the picture should do an end-over
just holding the rear brake at this inclination, standing as he is.

# We hopped a bus down to Dunedin (we've seen the east coast before), and found the famous Baldwin
# Street hill, noted in the Guinness Book of World Records as the steepest road in the world at
# 1:1.266, or an astounding 38 degrees. Stairs climb the hill on the sides, and people can get a
# certificate for just walking up the thing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Where are the real figures?

Quoted message said:

I think you should look at the photo again. Look at the houses in the distance. They are a long
ways down a very short road. Look at the angle of the closest house on the right - which happens
to be at the start of the "relatively flat" section. The lead person walking may be partially on
his heel but is definitely climbing. The second person is entirely on her toes. The rider appears
to be in her lowest granny gear. It also appears that she is just about to transition from a
"relatively" flat section back into a steeper section of the climb - similar to the one that had
been crested 50 or so yards before.

I was sent an interesting URL that fits with my perception of steep streets:

onenews.nzoom.com0,1227,164476 1 5,00.htmlOpen ↗

I think that sums it up.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Matt Locker said:

Quoted message said:

>> What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a

road, which is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> possible to overcome on a bike? If I remember well

on the Vuelta

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> the max slope of some mountain stages was up till

23%. Is it the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> This year's Giro d'Italia had one short section of

27%. Filbert

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> St. in San Francisco is 31.5%. The steepest road in

the world is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> in New Zealand, and it has been climbed by bicycle:

scasagrande.tripod.comNZ3bOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. The rider

in the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

picture is neither in a position of great forceful

climbing nor is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

his equipment up to the task. It seems this is a posed

static shot

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or the hill is not as steep as claimed. It's hard to

tell from an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in-line photo. The text is also not encouraging since

38 degrees

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is not even walkable, feet facing forward, However, the

walking

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people have their feet flat on the road. The ankle of

the average

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

human cannot approach that angle. Filbert street uses

stairs for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pedestrians at 31.5%, this road is 79%. I don't

believe it, at

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

least not for the portion of the road shown. The rider

in the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

picture should do an end-over just holding the rear

brake at this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

inclination, standing as he is.

# We hopped a bus down to Dunedin (we've seen the east

coast before),

Quoted message said:

# and found the famous Baldwin Street hill, noted in the

Guinness Book

Quoted message said:

# of World Records as the steepest road in the world at

1:1.266, or an

Quoted message said:

# astounding 38 degrees. Stairs climb the hill on the

sides, and

Quoted message said:

# people can get a certificate for just walking up the

thing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Where are the real figures?

Quoted message said:

I think you should look at the photo again. Look at the

houses in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the distance. They are a long ways down a very short

road. Look at

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the angle of the closest house on the right - which

happens to be at

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the start of the "relatively flat" section. The lead

person walking

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

may be partially on his heel but is definitely climbing.

The second

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

person is entirely on her toes. The rider appears to be

in her

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lowest granny gear. It also appears that she is just

about to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

transition from a "relatively" flat section back into a

steeper

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

section of the climb - similar to the one that had been

crested 50

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or so yards before.

I was sent an interesting URL that fits with my perception

of steep

Quoted message said:

streets:

onenews.nzoom.com0,1227,164476 1 5,00.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I think that sums it up.

38 degrees is definately wrong. But 38 *percent* sounds reasonable.

Matt O.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Matt Locker said:

Quoted message said:

>> What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on a
>> bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%.
>> Is it the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> This year's Giro d'Italia had one short section of 27%. Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%.
> The steepest road in the world is in New Zealand, and it has been climbed by bicycle:

scasagrande.tripod.comNZ3bOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. The rider in the picture is neither in a position of
great forceful climbing nor is his equipment up to the task. It seems this is a posed static
shot or the hill is not as steep as claimed. It's hard to tell from an in-line photo. The text
is also not encouraging since 38 degrees is not even walkable, feet facing forward, However,
the walking people have their feet flat on the road. The ankle of the average human cannot
approach that angle. Filbert street uses stairs for pedestrians at 31.5%, this road is 79%. I
don't believe it, at least not for the portion of the road shown. The rider in the picture
should do an end-over just holding the rear brake at this inclination, standing as he is.

# We hopped a bus down to Dunedin (we've seen the east coast before), and found the famous
# Baldwin Street hill, noted in the Guinness Book of World Records as the steepest road in the
# world at 1:1.266, or an astounding 38 degrees. Stairs climb the hill on the sides, and people
# can get a certificate for just walking up the thing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Where are the real figures?

Quoted message said:

I think you should look at the photo again. Look at the houses in the distance. They are a long
ways down a very short road. Look at the angle of the closest house on the right - which happens
to be at the start of the "relatively flat" section. The lead person walking may be partially on
his heel but is definitely climbing. The second person is entirely on her toes. The rider
appears to be in her lowest granny gear. It also appears that she is just about to transition
from a "relatively" flat section back into a steeper section of the climb - similar to the one
that had been crested 50 or so yards before.

I was sent an interesting URL that fits with my perception of steep streets:

onenews.nzoom.com0,1227,164476 1 5,00.htmlOpen ↗

I think that sums it up.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

From the above URL "Baldwin's steepest section is 19 degrees from horizontal. The figure in the
guinness book of records says its 38 degrees which would make it near impossible to stand on,"
Hamel says.

19 degrees from horizontal is still steep. That's 34.4 percent grade. Seems like we're doing apples
and oranges here. spokepost.compowerOpen ↗

Bill Brannon

"Peter Headland" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%.

And I believe that the pro's race up that street each year on doubles.

Actually that's Fillmore Street, which is about 18%:

chainreactionbicycles.comsfgranprix.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I have done a 30% grade (straight road for about 150m) on a road bike, it really is no big deal
with low gears (I probably was using 28x30).

I saw Lance riding up Fillmore on the big ring!

--Josh

Steepest street I know of is Fargo Street, in El Lay. 33% grade (34% at the top). You have to stand,
regardless of how low your bottom gear is, just to keep your front wheel on the ground!

the Los Angeles Wheelmen hold an anual hill climb there every February.

May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

"The steepest road in the world is in New Zealand, and it has been climbed by bicycle:
scasagrande.tripod.comNZ3bOpen ↗
--
terry morse =A0 Palo Alto, CA =A0 terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗"

The site claims it reaches 38=BA. What does that translate to in percent grade?

May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

Peter Headland said:

Quoted message said:

Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%.

And I believe that the pro's race up that street each year on doubles.

No, not Filbert, and yes, most use doubles. They race up Fillmore, which is about 17%, IIRC.

Matt O'Toole said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was sent an interesting URL that fits with my perception of steep streets:

onenews.nzoom.com0,1227,164476 1 5,00.htmlOpen ↗

I think that sums it up.

Quoted message said:

38 degrees is definately wrong. But 38 *percent* sounds reasonable.

That article says that the steepest section is actually about 19 degrees, which is about
34.5 percent.

-as

Jobst Brandt said:

Quoted message said:

scasagrande.tripod.comNZ3bOpen ↗

Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. The rider in the picture is neither in a position of
great forceful climbing nor is his equipment up to the task. It seems this is a posed static shot
or the hill is not as steep as claimed. It's hard to tell from an in-line photo. The text is also
not encouraging since 38 degrees is not even walkable, feet facing forward, However, the walking
people have their feet flat on the road. The ankle of the average human cannot approach that
angle. Filbert street uses stairs for pedestrians at 31.5%, this road is 79%.

Where are the real figures?

I agree, there's no way that Baldwin Street is 38 degrees. If it were, the walkers would be on all
fours. I think that's a bogus derived number, based on a typo. A 1:2.66 grade is more likely, which
would put the grade at 37.6% (or 20.6 degrees). 37.6% rounds up to 38%.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

In <[email hidden]>, "Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> opined:

(SNIP - 90 lines of stuff WE ALL SAW THE FIRST TIME, just to add: )

Quoted message said:

38 degrees is definately wrong. But 38 *percent* sounds reasonable.

Matt O.

Can nobody in this group trim anymore?

--
Dave Salovesh [email hidden]