Uphill Attacks

If you train doing hill intervals your body will adapt to recovering quicker to the intense efforts. After time, you will not feel so spent after your more intese effort. You may also try shifting down a gear or two when you get out of the saddle and then go up a gear or two when go back to sitting. When you back to sitting, it will be easier to get maintain a decent cadence.

Carrera said:

Therefore, is it a good idea to practise fake attacks on such ascents? Does anyone do that, for example?

I think what you are experiencing is a rapid depletion of glycogen stores in the muscles, due to an intense, anaerobic effort (your pursuit of the fast biker). This is a common concern even among elite cyclists - have you noticed how many times during the Tour de France, that the commentators will say "Vieggleheimer (or whoever) is falling back, he is going to climb this mountain at his own pace". That is to prevent totally flat-lining later in the stage, by pulling back a bit, the rider is preserving glycogen stores in the muscles and relying on their aerobic system to metabolize fats and complex carbs instead.

To your point about "attack drills" - sure that would help you, as you would eventually train your body to handle this particular situation aerobically. In effect, you would increase your lactate threshold to the point where you can perform the attack and stay aerobic.

I also agree with OCRoadie, that one of the keys to staying aerobic is to keep the cadence from falling too low. If you are grinding at 60 RPM, your legs will go anaerobic in no time.

I have had your scenario happen to me on several occasions - I am humming along at my usual pace when suddenly I am attacked on a hill. I can usually keep up with someone faster than me for a while but eventually I run out of gas and I am dropped. Then, for the rest of the ride I feel toasted and unable to recover fully.

Disclaimer - this is my understanding of how this works that I have cobbled together from a variety of readings. If anyone thinks I am full of cr*p, then so be it, but they better provide a better explanation!

Carrera said:

I'm just building my fitness up again and was out on my bike today. But I have a question:
This year I got my fitness up to a reasonably high level. I could do 40 mile stints at a reasonable speed and especially hammered my climbing (sometimes hitting 16 mph on a climb). My speed on the flat was fairly average.
However, what I find is that the only point my fitness might let me down is after an intense effort. Let me give an example:
There's a climb I practise on in my area, not too steep but extremely long. When my fitness level is down, I struggle to get up it. When my fitness level is high, I can complete the climb with ease. Even so, what tends to kill me is an intensification of effort on such a climb.
Once I'd climbed halfway up a long ascent and spotted another roadie ahead. I worked to close the gap and increased my speed, slowly gaining ground. By the time I had completely closed the gap there wasn't much fuel left in my tank. I was in no mood for overtaking and, in fact, I felt there was nothing left.
Therefore, is it a good idea to practise fake attacks on such ascents? Does anyone do that, for example? Say your average speed on a climb is 12 mph, but you then sprint out of the seat at 15 mph for a given period and finally slow down to the original speed. Whenever I do that I find it kills me, whereas if I just climb at a steady pace I'm fine.
Don't know if anyone can identify with this at all.

What you describe is simply a matter of temporarily overwhelming your aerobic system. When you are already at a high steady state intensity you have very little aerobic or anaerobic capacity at your disposal to increase your cycling power/speed any further. This is completely normal, and everyone must deal with the same interaction of intensity and aerobic capacity to learn how to pace themselves during these kinds of efforts. The difference between between cyclists is that as fitness increases (from beginner to elite), so does your ability to repeat efforts like the one you discussed (yes, speed of the effort increases for the individual as well, but less so than the ability to repeat the efforts). The ability to recover from such an effort, and repeat more like it, is entirely a matter of aerobic capacity, fitness and over the longer term (eg: 90+min) glycogen availability (anaerobic capacity has nothing to do with it). Certainly, if you want to be better at anything, on a certain level all you have to do is keep repeating whatever it is, and you will progress. However, over the long term, it's better to approach training from a "systems" perspective: that is to say you should perform workouts that focus primarily on one system until you have reached a maximal level of fitness for that system and then incorporate them further down the line (i.e.: periodization). For the efforts you describe, working on your maximal steady state and maximal aerobic power will benefit you the most.

"I have had your scenario happen to me on several occasions - I am humming along at my usual pace when suddenly I am attacked on a hill. I can usually keep up with someone faster than me for a while but eventually I run out of gas and I am dropped. Then, for the rest of the ride I feel toasted and unable to recover fully."

I had this feeling once that I went to pot (blew a gasket). I'd got halfway up a climb and this lighter guy came past me (riding at a high cadence). He came past right at the top of the first section of hill and flew past on the flat. I think it was the chase on the flat that did for me. Soon as I closed the gap, there was another stretch uphill to come and ,all of a sudden, my body didn't seem to want to do what my mind said it should. It felt like pedaling underwater - loads of effort but little effect. I found myself suddenly dripping sweat. I began to lose distance rapidly as the other rider increased his gap-lead.
Just at that moment a small kid came out of his drive on a BMX and started riding on the pavement. I could barely even keep pace with him, fresh as he was and myself having busted ass for 20 minutes uphill.
I've always been a rock solid climber and can get up the biggest hills so long as I go at my own pace. But if there's a sudden need to draw on those reserves, I occasionally find there are [censored] in the armour. I made a note of the pint of the hill where I flagged and now have it classifed as a danger-red zone. It took me almost 15 minutes to get my energy level back.

Randybaker99 said:

I think what you are experiencing is a rapid depletion of glycogen stores in the muscles, due to an intense, anaerobic effort (your pursuit of the fast biker). This is a common concern even among elite cyclists - have you noticed how many times during the Tour de France, that the commentators will say "Vieggleheimer (or whoever) is falling back, he is going to climb this mountain at his own pace". That is to prevent totally flat-lining later in the stage, by pulling back a bit, the rider is preserving glycogen stores in the muscles and relying on their aerobic system to metabolize fats and complex carbs instead.

To your point about "attack drills" - sure that would help you, as you would eventually train your body to handle this particular situation aerobically. In effect, you would increase your lactate threshold to the point where you can perform the attack and stay aerobic.

I also agree with OCRoadie, that one of the keys to staying aerobic is to keep the cadence from falling too low. If you are grinding at 60 RPM, your legs will go anaerobic in no time.

I have had your scenario happen to me on several occasions - I am humming along at my usual pace when suddenly I am attacked on a hill. I can usually keep up with someone faster than me for a while but eventually I run out of gas and I am dropped. Then, for the rest of the ride I feel toasted and unable to recover fully.

Disclaimer - this is my understanding of how this works that I have cobbled together from a variety of readings. If anyone thinks I am full of cr*p, then so be it, but they better provide a better explanation!

"The ability to recover from such an effort, and repeat more like it, is entirely a matter of aerobic capacity, fitness and over the longer term (eg: 90+min) glycogen availability (anaerobic capacity has nothing to do with it)."

Is it possible to combat glycogen defficiency through diet? I normally drink pure orange juice during rides but bananas tend to give me cramp in the toes.
It must take a heck of a lot of effort to drop a decent rider. I read that Lance Armstrong can do it by accelerating at high cadence while Jan Ullrich relied on a steady build up of speed he got from his big gears. It's said Ullrich likes to let his speed build up as he churns the bigger cogs and gets his rhythm going.

Smartt/RST said:

What you describe is simply a matter of temporarily overwhelming your aerobic system. When you are already at a high steady state intensity you have very little aerobic or anaerobic capacity at your disposal to increase your cycling power/speed any further. This is completely normal, and everyone must deal with the same interaction of intensity and aerobic capacity to learn how to pace themselves during these kinds of efforts. The difference between between cyclists is that as fitness increases (from beginner to elite), so does your ability to repeat efforts like the one you discussed (yes, speed of the effort increases for the individual as well, but less so than the ability to repeat the efforts). The ability to recover from such an effort, and repeat more like it, is entirely a matter of aerobic capacity, fitness and over the longer term (eg: 90+min) glycogen availability (anaerobic capacity has nothing to do with it). Certainly, if you want to be better at anything, on a certain level all you have to do is keep repeating whatever it is, and you will progress. However, over the long term, it's better to approach training from a "systems" perspective: that is to say you should perform workouts that focus primarily on one system until you have reached a maximal level of fitness for that system and then incorporate them further down the line (i.e.: periodization). For the efforts you describe, working on your maximal steady state and maximal aerobic power will benefit you the most.

I just learned something I'll share. I was riding my bike today and another rider shot past me about twice my own speed. I'd just been pottering along in no real rush. So, as any cyclist who has a competitive nature is likely to do, I shot off in pursuit.
As often happens in my favour, the friendly sprint took off uphill - not a steep one but a nice upward grade. I allowed myself to slowly build up speed and rode past the other guy (not resorting to a sprint). Then it dawned on me where part of my problem always lies. I concluded much of it's psychological. I don't know about anyone else but I detect a feeling that the guy you overtake is bound to come back at you from behind so, myself, I tend to overcompensate and sprint flat out and then just overheat and blow a gasket.
This time I did the opposite. I maintained my increased speed, tried to relax and avoided any attempt to sprint (I'm still not fit enough for that). It worked as well. Kept my speed steady at about 14 mph uphill for a few minutes and the guy behind was dropped.
The lesson I learned is one of simple technique. You don't have to be the fittest guy on the road to race uphill. Plus, I think that if you want to catch another rider without burning out, you can SLOWLY increase your speed and momentum, rather than simply sprint in a conventional attack (which I guess requires more fitness).
Anyone agree or disagree with that or have anything to share?

Carrera said:

I just learned something I'll share. I was riding my bike today and another rider shot past me about twice my own speed. I'd just been pottering along in no real rush. So, as any cyclist who has a competitive nature is likely to do, I shot off in pursuit.
As often happens in my favour, the friendly sprint took off uphill - not a steep one but a nice upward grade. I allowed myself to slowly build up speed and rode past the other guy (not resorting to a sprint). Then it dawned on me where part of my problem always lies. I concluded much of it's psychological. I don't know about anyone else but I detect a feeling that the guy you overtake is bound to come back at you from behind so, myself, I tend to overcompensate and sprint flat out and then just overheat and blow a gasket.
This time I did the opposite. I maintained my increased speed, tried to relax and avoided any attempt to sprint (I'm still not fit enough for that). It worked as well. Kept my speed steady at about 14 mph uphill for a few minutes and the guy behind was dropped.
The lesson I learned is one of simple technique. You don't have to be the fittest guy on the road to race uphill. Plus, I think that if you want to catch another rider without burning out, you can SLOWLY increase your speed and momentum, rather than simply sprint in a conventional attack (which I guess requires more fitness).
Anyone agree or disagree with that or have anything to share?

Hey i know what you mean about thinking the other rider is gonna close the gap after you made one.on the hills im a good climber, if im attacked on a hill i just jump on the wheel and wait till we get to the top, then i attack. this has worked well for me being most people blow by the time they get to the top. it's a psychological game to play on the other rider. i attack like i have lots left they look like, how can he have that much left and let me go. i wish ALL my races ended with a long climb, damn them sprinters!

Yes.. some dudes passed me on a flat road the other day. As they were passing me, one of them said “Come on, let’s go.” I chased them. One of'em broke away and I got on his wheel. He sped up. He was a strong rider until we got to the steep hill. Once we got there, I destroyed him. Before I broke away, I said “Bye,” very politely.

Whenever somebody passes me on any day, I don’t care if it’s a beginner or elite rider; I immediately go on a chase. Just because I hate riding by myself. And it gives me a good reason to push hard.

must be nice to have people pass you so you can chase them😎

In my area, there's a big ego thing in the Summer with people sneaking up and whizzing past you. 9 times out of 10 I can nip such riders on a hill, soon as they leave the flat, but it's harder if a really seasoned rider has shot past me. Over here, you find the seasoned riders practising on a big hill that leads to the country and they'll be dressed in their club outfits with expensive bikes. These folks usually weight 30 pounds lighter than myself or maybe ride far more (I work shifts and can't train as much) so the best I can do is hold onto the wheel in front.
What really pisses me off is if someone tears past me and some damned car blocks my efforts to gain ground. I don't know what it is but if a rider comes past me I go into a kind of shark-mode and set about regaining a lead.

sooray02 said:

Yes.. some dudes passed me on a flat road the other day. As they were passing me, one of them said “Come on, let’s go.” I chased them. One of'em broke away and I got on his wheel. He sped up. He was a strong rider until we got to the steep hill. Once we got there, I destroyed him. Before I broke away, I said “Bye,” very politely.

Whenever somebody passes me on any day, I don’t care if it’s a beginner or elite rider; I immediately go on a chase. Just because I hate riding by myself. And it gives me a good reason to push hard.

Carrera said:

"The ability to recover from such an effort, and repeat more like it, is entirely a matter of aerobic capacity, fitness and over the longer term (eg: 90+min) glycogen availability (anaerobic capacity has nothing to do with it)."

Is it possible to combat glycogen defficiency through diet? I normally drink pure orange juice during rides but bananas tend to give me cramp in the toes.
It must take a heck of a lot of effort to drop a decent rider. I read that Lance Armstrong can do it by accelerating at high cadence while Jan Ullrich relied on a steady build up of speed he got from his big gears. It's said Ullrich likes to let his speed build up as he churns the bigger cogs and gets his rhythm going.

Yes, you can absolutely "combat" glycogen defficiency through diet. This is the basis for maintaining a high carbohydrate diet when engaging in any regular/daily aerobic activity of significant duration/intensity.
Carbs during exercise will also prolong the onset of fatigue, but not necessarily due to any involvement with stored glycogen. I recommend a maltodextrin based drink as opposed to a fructose based drink (orange drink).
As for Jan, that's just what you have to do when you weigh 20lbs (or so, I can't remember exactly) more than the guy trying to drop you. To rapidly accelerate so much extra mass requires a huge spike in power output, which in turn must be met by anaerobic metabolism.

The guy who does the commentary for the tour in this country goes on at length about Ullrich's gears. I couldn't see what gear Ullrich was using but the commentater said he was the only rider who was geared on the big crank during a climb. Even Armstrong was on the middle crank. But if Jan lost any momentum he'd be in trouble as he builds his speed up.
I believe Big Mig also climbed on big cogs till Armstrong changed the fashion.

Smartt/RST said:

Yes, you can absolutely "combat" glycogen defficiency through diet. This is the basis for maintaining a high carbohydrate diet when engaging in any regular/daily aerobic activity of significant duration/intensity.
Carbs during exercise will also prolong the onset of fatigue, but not necessarily due to any involvement with stored glycogen. I recommend a maltodextrin based drink as opposed to a fructose based drink (orange drink).
As for Jan, that's just what you have to do when you weigh 20lbs (or so, I can't remember exactly) more than the guy trying to drop you. To rapidly accelerate so much extra mass requires a huge spike in power output, which in turn must be met by anaerobic metabolism.

Carrera said:

The guy who does the commentary for the tour in this country goes on at length about Ullrich's gears. I couldn't see what gear Ullrich was using but the commentater said he was the only rider who was geared on the big crank during a climb. Even Armstrong was on the middle crank. But if Jan lost any momentum he'd be in trouble as he builds his speed up.
I believe Big Mig also climbed on big cogs till Armstrong changed the fashion.

Actually, I've heard Armstrong mention once or twice how he emulates Indurain's pedaling style. I'm not a great historian or anything, but the first cyclist that I know of who was renowned for his supless (sp?) (smooth, quicker pedaling style) was Fausto Coppi. I just point that out because Armstrong by no means has "changed" anything. What he has done is come to learn how much it suits him and how to take advantage of it in his training and racing....we should all do so well.

Who would you rate as the best climber, Merckx, Armstrong or Indurain?
I recently read a good book about Indurain's last tour where he finally cracked in the mountains (something that hasn't yet happened to Armstrong).
Merckx I don't know much about really, except that he spent more time in the yellow than the other 2 and seemed to win more stages.

Smartt/RST said:

Actually, I've heard Armstrong mention once or twice how he emulates Indurain's pedaling style. I'm not a great historian or anything, but the first cyclist that I know of who was renowned for his supless (sp?) (smooth, quicker pedaling style) was Fausto Coppi. I just point that out because Armstrong by no means has "changed" anything. What he has done is come to learn how much it suits him and how to take advantage of it in his training and racing....we should all do so well.

Carrera said:

Who would you rate as the best climber, Merckx, Armstrong or Indurain?
I recently read a good book about Indurain's last tour where he finally cracked in the mountains (something that hasn't yet happened to Armstrong).
Merckx I don't know much about really, except that he spent more time in the yellow than the other 2 and seemed to win more stages.

Well, the best comparisons that I have seen are based on some of the key performances of the riders. Merckx I don't recall, but Indurain and Armstrong had essentially the same W/kg performances during Indurain's hour record and one of Armstrong's accents up Alpe d'Huez....but Armstrong did his effort after several hours of endurance/tempo riding. Crazy. Indurain was a much larger rider, so one would speculate that he would be at a disadvantage in the mountains.
Watching Indurain crack was a hard day for me, I always appreciated his calm and modest personality, and what a brilliant rider. In retrospect, he was never really in that tour; after having a child he didn't quite put in the training of years past, started with some extra pounds and, well, the rest is history.

I just got back from a ride and am absolutely frozen. The cold over here is truly mind-boggling. All in all, I performed well in freezing temperatures but my feet got nailed.
As for Indurain I used to live around the same area as he did. Indurain is a native of Navarra - the capital city being Pamplona where John Kerry once joined in the encierro (bull run). The second major city of Navarra is Tudela where I lived (practically a town within a desert). There are other smaller towns scattered around the area so the whole zone is referred to as La Ribera.
I'm sure the reason why there are so many good Spanish climbers from northern Spain is due to the mountainous terrain. It's certain Indurain would have perfected his climbing around the outskirts of Pamplona where you get some huge mountain ascents. Went up myself once but not on my bike - that will come later when I holiday in the region.
When I lived around that area you couldn't get away from Indurain as the locals were fixated on his success. People were really proud of the fact he hailed from Navarra.
I hear that Armstrong has also immersed himself in Spain's cycling culture. He apparently likes the terrain, enjoys the cafes and the culture in general. It's a pity I wasn't that into cycling when I lived over there as I could have gotten to know some of the top riders who train in there.

Smartt/RST said:

Well, the best comparisons that I have seen are based on some of the key performances of the riders. Merckx I don't recall, but Indurain and Armstrong had essentially the same W/kg performances during Indurain's hour record and one of Armstrong's accents up Alpe d'Huez....but Armstrong did his effort after several hours of endurance/tempo riding. Crazy. Indurain was a much larger rider, so one would speculate that he would be at a disadvantage in the mountains.
Watching Indurain crack was a hard day for me, I always appreciated his calm and modest personality, and what a brilliant rider. In retrospect, he was never really in that tour; after having a child he didn't quite put in the training of years past, started with some extra pounds and, well, the rest is history.

a tale of woe...

i live in an area where there is no climb that - given reasonable fitness - cannot just be attacked anaerobically. uphill sprinting really, no sustained climbing.

when I was 18 i weighed in at 140 pounds, the best speed I could maintain for a flat 20 mile ride was 22mph. But my climbing was oarsome. Favorite memory being racing level with a guy on a 50cc scooter at 30mph, then blowing him away as the power:weight ratio went in my favor and i crested a hill at 28mph. the look on his face as i came past is never forgotten!

10 years later (6 in which "cycling" consisted of looking at that thing in the shed) and once again i can maintain 22mph for 20 miles. but at 168 pounds im certainly not blowing any scooters away when the road goes up!