hamstring problems, please help!

"Larry Gagnon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am a 50 year old runner, doing about 10km every second day. Over the
past 8 months or so I have been plagued with upper hamstring tightness,
upper hamstring muscle pulls and pain where the upper hamstring muscles
attach to the bottom of the buttock.

I have been running since I was a teenager and have always been
inflexible, rarely if ever have I been able to touch my toes. I do about
20 minutes of yoga, with specific hamstring exercises almost every night,
but that has not seemed to have helped much.

Over the past 10 years I have been getting quite lazy with stretching
before and after my runs, so I have probably brought these problems on
myself!

Other than really focussing on specific hamstring stretching, cutting down
the running until all heals, doing more pre-run stretching and pehaps some
physio has anyone out there got any other ideas. I would appreciate it.

Larry Gagnon
********************************
to reply via email remove "fake"
Microsoft will soon release their newest product: a vacuum cleaner. It
will be their only product which doesn't suck.

In my experience this type of pain was caused by overstriding.
I wouldn't recommend pre-run stretching unless you're warmed up and even
then I think it aggravates the condition more than helps. I would suggest
rolling and massaging the muscles by using your body weight on a tennis
ball or a football as Doug has suggested. You can also get a foam roll to do
this with.

Good luck.
Parker

I'm 58 and been running forever. I had the same thing happen. Glut minimus and
peraformus were my problems.See a message thearapist soon!

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Howard245) said:

I'm 58 and been running forever. I had the same thing happen. Glut minimus and
peraformus were my problems.See a message thearapist soon!

"Let's see, Louise called, she wants to have dinner on Thursday night.
You got e-mail from Bob saying the contract looks good. Joe left a note
on the front door saying he and Maragaret stopped by but you weren't
home. Oh, and Frank called and said you need to stretch your hamstrings."

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

In article <[email hidden]>,

Larry Gagnon said:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Other than really focussing on specific hamstring stretching, cutting down
the running until all heals, doing more pre-run stretching and pehaps some
physio has anyone out there got any other ideas. I would appreciate it.

You might try sports massage. It promotes circulation to the area.
Shop around and find someone who knows what they're doing. Good sports
massage is rather painful, but effective.

--
************************************************************************
Terry R. McConnell Mathematics/215 Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150
[email hidden] 229B Physics Bldg http://barnyard.syr.edu/~tmc
************************************************************************

Maybe you're right and you have brought this on yourself through a 10 year
history of lazy stretching. What came first the tightness or the pulls? And
when did you start focusing on specific hamstring stretches? After the
tightness and before the pulls? Chicken and the egg perhaps?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Other than really focussing on specific hamstring stretching, cutting down
the running until all heals, doing more pre-run stretching and pehaps some
physio has anyone out there got any other ideas. I would appreciate it.

My point is you might want leave you hams' alone for a while. Don't stretch.
Don't run.

Regarding pre run stretching, there are two main camps, eyeing each other
suspiciously from across a river (occasionally Oz floats by in his boat,
stopping at neither). One side says never! The other says always! Be aware
that in *some* people (aggressive) stretching can cause the muscles to
contract shortly thereafter. That's all I have to say about that, lest one
of the camps try to quote me or ask for campaign contributions.

Personally I'd like to sneak in to both camps in the middle of the night and
fill their shoes will sardines, but Oz won't lend me his boat (something
about it not having any oars). The sardines however are well stockpiled.
Speaking of which, nutrition is an important factor in flexibility, from
arteries to muscles. Consider consulting a nutritionist; can't hurt. Avoid
chiropractors, you don't need to do the pretzel thing for this one, in my
opinion.

I will or won't (stretch before a run) depending on temperature, time of day
(how long I've been up and about), presence of muscle soreness, type and
duration of run ahead etc. Typically however, I begin stretching after a
half mile slow jog or so, i.e, after my muscles are a little WARM. Stopping
to stretch (lightly) throughout your runs, if you feel the need, is good
too.

Furthermore, I've never been a big fan of 'really focused' stretching.
Bouncing stretches: no no. Holding stretches (esp. in discomfort): no no. If
your stretching techniques were approved by a martial arts instructor,
you're not doing yourself any favors where running is concerned.

Again, consider doing nothing for a while. If you insist on more pre run
stretching, a good warm-up is key. How you get those muscles warmed is up to
you. Light jogging in a hottub works for me.

Limberly yours,
Surf

Quoted message said:

Other than really focussing on specific hamstring stretching, cutting down
the running until all heals, doing more pre-run stretching and pehaps some
physio has anyone out there got any other ideas. I would appreciate it.

Larry Gagnon

There are actually several things you can try/do:

(1) Warmup, not stretching. There is no scientific evidence anywhere that
stretching reduces injuries (in fact there is evidence that it DOESN'T work),
but a proper warmup does reduce injuries. I'd recommend replacing that 20
minutes of stretching with a warmup that includes (a) a warmup jog (until you
just start to sweat); (b) some drills like high-knees, butt-kicks, quick feet
that work over range of motion; and (c) some strides over 50-100m up to faster
speed than normal running speed. This may be the only thing you need to do.

(2) Running form. I'm opposed to changing form (footstrike) for form's sake,
but if there are obvious form breaks or injuries, this is something to look at.
If you are a heel striker, you might need to move to a midfoot/forefoot
strike. See "Explosive Running," for instance. An example of perfect form
that you might not mind looking at:

http://www.advantageathletics.com/sprints/suzy_favor_hamilton.html

(3) Hard-easy. If your 10K every 2 days is "hard," you might be overtraining
and need more recovery. Many people over 40 seem to need 2 days between hard
workouts, with shorter/easier running (or rest) inbetween.

(4) Weak abs. The "in" term for this is "core strength," but this is
basically strength in your middle muscles. Many problems in your hips,
piriformis, gluts, hams, and ITBS can have their root in abs that are too weak
to stabilize the hip structure. Straight, diagonal, and twisting crunches may
be part or all of the solution.

(5) Hamstring/Quad strength. Hamstring strength should be 60-65% of quad
strength (at least). If the hamstrings are weak, they may need strengthening.

Lyndon

"Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US Olympic Track Coach
Brooks Johnson

Lyndon said:

(1) Warmup, not stretching. There is no scientific evidence
anywhere that stretching reduces injuries (in fact there is evidence
that it DOESN'T work), but a proper warmup does reduce injuries. I'd
recommend replacing that 20 minutes of stretching with a warmup that
includes (a) a warmup jog (until you just start to sweat); (b) some
drills like high-knees, butt-kicks, quick feet that work over range
of motion; and (c) some strides over 50-100m up to faster speed than
normal running speed. This may be the only thing you need to do.

I am in firm agreement. Stretching when cold is a definite no-no, and I
have to bite my tongue when I see folks at the trailhead doing elaborate
pre-run stretches.

I now warm up on my normal easy runs by starting out very slowly (12+
min/mile but with quickish steps), and gradually get to cruising speed over
5-7 minutes. I recently ran the first part of a run with some elite
runners, and they started out at 9+ min/mile for a couple of miles -- before
they dropped me like a stone.

When I do speed, I jog for at least 15 minutes before doing anything fast,
even strides.

Strangely enough, I haven't had any injuries since I started doing this,
beyond a minor pre-existing problem w/my left knee.

Quoted message said:

(3) Hard-easy. If your 10K every 2 days is "hard," you might be
overtraining and need more recovery. Many people over 40 seem to
need 2 days between hard workouts, with shorter/easier running (or
rest) inbetween.

As an over 50 guy, I still can do two hard days separated by 1 easy day, but
the easy day is *very* easy -- typically averaging in the low 120's
heartrate.

When I did have a nasty series of hamstring problems (after beginning to
compete after a 15 year hiatus), I found that stretching wasn't very useful,
but that slow running (so that there was no pain at all) and sitting on an
electric heat pad during the day really helped. The latter is much cheaper
than ultrasound.

-- Dan

Quoted message said:

See a message thearapist soon!

I highly recommeNd the "Happy Ending Special".

Get a Stick for self massage. I've had/have similar ham
issues. It works. Stretching is good but not enough. One
needs to be able to work deeper into the muscle fibers to
work out knots and eliminate tightness. "Rolling" groups or
individual muscles with a stick tool before running loosens,
stretches, and increases blood supply. After running it
helps remove lactic acid and prevent soreness/tightness.

Bob Anderson/Stretching sells a number of useful body
tools. I use the Elite 2 model
http://www.stretching.com/products/bodytools.asp

Also www.thestick.com

More info at http://www.intracell.net (makers of The Stick.)

Larry Gagnon said:

I am a 50 year old runner, doing about 10km every second day. Over the
past 8 months or so I have been plagued with upper hamstring tightness,
upper hamstring muscle pulls and pain where the upper hamstring muscles
attach to the bottom of the buttock.

I have been running since I was a teenager and have always been
inflexible, rarely if ever have I been able to touch my toes. I do about
20 minutes of yoga, with specific hamstring exercises almost every night,
but that has not seemed to have helped much.

Over the past 10 years I have been getting quite lazy with stretching
before and after my runs, so I have probably brought these problems on
myself!

Other than really focussing on specific hamstring stretching, cutting down
the running until all heals, doing more pre-run stretching and pehaps some
physio has anyone out there got any other ideas. I would appreciate it.

Larry Gagnon
********************************
to reply via email remove "fake"
Microsoft will soon release their newest product: a vacuum cleaner. It
will be their only product which doesn't suck.

Parker Race said:

"Larry Gagnon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am a 50 year old runner, doing about 10km every second day. Over the
past 8 months or so I have been plagued with upper hamstring tightness,
upper hamstring muscle pulls and pain where the upper hamstring muscles
attach to the bottom of the buttock.

I have been running since I was a teenager and have always been
inflexible, rarely if ever have I been able to touch my toes. I do about
20 minutes of yoga, with specific hamstring exercises almost every night,
but that has not seemed to have helped much.

Over the past 10 years I have been getting quite lazy with stretching
before and after my runs, so I have probably brought these problems on
myself!

Other than really focussing on specific hamstring stretching, cutting down
the running until all heals, doing more pre-run stretching and pehaps some
physio has anyone out there got any other ideas. I would appreciate it.

Larry Gagnon
********************************
to reply via email remove "fake"
Microsoft will soon release their newest product: a vacuum cleaner. It
will be their only product which doesn't suck.

In my experience this type of pain was caused by overstriding.
I wouldn't recommend pre-run stretching unless you're warmed up and even
then I think it aggravates the condition more than helps. I would suggest
rolling and massaging the muscles by using your body weight on a tennis
ball or a football as Doug has suggested. You can also get a foam roll to do
this with.

I agree. First I roll (with a stick) then I stretch.

Surf McBrowse said:

Maybe you're right and you have brought this on yourself through a 10 year
history of lazy stretching. What came first the tightness or the pulls? And
when did you start focusing on specific hamstring stretches? After the
tightness and before the pulls? Chicken and the egg perhaps?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Other than really focussing on specific hamstring stretching, cutting down
the running until all heals, doing more pre-run stretching and pehaps some
physio has anyone out there got any other ideas. I would appreciate it.

My point is you might want leave you hams' alone for a while. Don't stretch.
Don't run.

Massage therapy.

Quoted message said:

Regarding pre run stretching, there are two main camps, eyeing each other
suspiciously from across a river (occasionally Oz floats by in his boat,
stopping at neither). One side says never! The other says always! Be aware
that in *some* people (aggressive) stretching can cause the muscles to
contract shortly thereafter. That's all I have to say about that, lest one
of the camps try to quote me or ask for campaign contributions.

Personally I'd like to sneak in to both camps in the middle of the night and
fill their shoes will sardines, but Oz won't lend me his boat (something
about it not having any oars). The sardines however are well stockpiled.

What if you're in the middle camp, can you still
get the sardines? Personally my taste buds can't
wait 😉

Quoted message said:

Speaking of which, nutrition is an important factor in flexibility, from
arteries to muscles. Consider consulting a nutritionist; can't hurt. Avoid
chiropractors, you don't need to do the pretzel thing for this one, in my
opinion.

I will or won't (stretch before a run) depending on temperature, time of day
(how long I've been up and about), presence of muscle soreness, type and
duration of run ahead etc. Typically however, I begin stretching after a
half mile slow jog or so, i.e, after my muscles are a little WARM. Stopping
to stretch (lightly) throughout your runs, if you feel the need, is good
too.

Good call. I always stretch, but stretching is an
exercise in itself. One should always warm up
before stretching.

Quoted message said:

Furthermore, I've never been a big fan of 'really focused' stretching.
Bouncing stretches: no no. Holding stretches (esp. in discomfort): no no. If
your stretching techniques were approved by a martial arts instructor,
you're not doing yourself any favors where running is concerned.

Stretching shouldn't be aggressive, ever. It should be
gentle and gradual, reach a painless and comfortable
maximum extension, and then gradually release. 20-30
seconds tops. Repeat if necessary. Idiots who "bounce"
are asking for trouble and there seems no reason to
hold a stretch for indefinite periods of time.

Quoted message said:

Again, consider doing nothing for a while. If you insist on more pre run
stretching, a good warm-up is key. How you get those muscles warmed is up to
you. Light jogging in a hottub works for me.

How about a poor man's hot tub -- bathtub of warm
water 🙂

Quoted message said:

Limberly yours,
Surf

Lyndon said:

Quoted message said:

Other than really focussing on specific hamstring stretching, cutting down
the running until all heals, doing more pre-run stretching and pehaps some
physio has anyone out there got any other ideas. I would appreciate it.

Larry Gagnon

There are actually several things you can try/do:

(1) Warmup, not stretching. There is no scientific evidence anywhere that
stretching reduces injuries (in fact there is evidence that it DOESN'T work),
but a proper warmup does reduce injuries. I'd recommend replacing that 20
minutes of stretching with a warmup that includes (a) a warmup jog (until you
just start to sweat); (b) some drills like high-knees, butt-kicks, quick feet
that work over range of motion; and (c) some strides over 50-100m up to faster
speed than normal running speed. This may be the only thing you need to do.

And what do you think you're doing with all those knee
lifts and butt kicks? Stretching, that's what...

Quoted message said:

(2) Running form. I'm opposed to changing form (footstrike) for form's sake,
but if there are obvious form breaks or injuries, this is something to look at.
If you are a heel striker, you might need to move to a midfoot/forefoot
strike. See "Explosive Running," for instance. An example of perfect form
that you might not mind looking at:

http://www.advantageathletics.com/sprints/suzy_favor_hamilton.html

(3) Hard-easy. If your 10K every 2 days is "hard," you might be overtraining
and need more recovery. Many people over 40 seem to need 2 days between hard
workouts, with shorter/easier running (or rest) inbetween.

(4) Weak abs. The "in" term for this is "core strength," but this is
basically strength in your middle muscles. Many problems in your hips,
piriformis, gluts, hams, and ITBS can have their root in abs that are too weak
to stabilize the hip structure. Straight, diagonal, and twisting crunches may
be part or all of the solution.

(5) Hamstring/Quad strength. Hamstring strength should be 60-65% of quad
strength (at least). If the hamstrings are weak, they may need strengthening.

Lyndon

"Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US Olympic Track Coach
Brooks Johnson

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Get a Stick for self massage. I've had/have similar ham
issues. It works. Stretching is good but not enough. One
needs to be able to work deeper into the muscle fibers to
work out knots and eliminate tightness. "Rolling" groups or
individual muscles with a stick tool before running loosens,
stretches, and increases blood supply. After running it
helps remove lactic acid and prevent soreness/tightness.

I have nothing against "the stick" although I did not like the way they
tried to hawk it some years back on r.r. but you can achieve the same
results with a football or even a tennis ball. OTOH, sometimes any
device will not really hit the spot and you need find a massage
therapist to work the problem area.

-DF

Doug Freese said:

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Get a Stick for self massage. I've had/have similar ham
issues. It works. Stretching is good but not enough. One
needs to be able to work deeper into the muscle fibers to
work out knots and eliminate tightness. "Rolling" groups or
individual muscles with a stick tool before running loosens,
stretches, and increases blood supply. After running it
helps remove lactic acid and prevent soreness/tightness.

I have nothing against "the stick" although I did not like the way they
tried to hawk it some years back on r.r. but you can achieve the same
results with a football or even a tennis ball.

In the course of rehabilitating my hams I found rolling
on things less efficacious than a tool I could use to
roll an entire muscle group with. I started out rolling
on balls, styrofoam, etc. The stick was much easier. No
one sold me on it, it just worked.

Quoted message said:

OTOH, sometimes any
device will not really hit the spot and you need find a massage
therapist to work the problem area.

I haven't had to go to a therapist since using it. I also
use Anderson's Theracane for specific knots a stick can't
reach (like deep glutes; similar to rolling on something
but you don't have to achieve a balancing act.)

The problem I had with therapists is when I needed on the
spot massage they wouldn't/couldn't oblige. Instead of a
weekly massage fee, I self massage daily and it's been much
more effective in getting my stride back.

Course I do miss my cute former therapist. Such hands 😉

Leafing through rec.running, I read Larry Gagnon's message of 03 Dec
2004:

Quoted message said:

I am a 50 year old runner, doing about 10km every second day. Over the
past 8 months or so I have been plagued with upper hamstring
tightness, upper hamstring muscle pulls and pain where the upper
hamstring muscles attach to the bottom of the buttock.

I have been running since I was a teenager and have always been
inflexible, rarely if ever have I been able to touch my toes. I do
about 20 minutes of yoga, with specific hamstring exercises almost
every night, but that has not seemed to have helped much.

Over the past 10 years I have been getting quite lazy with stretching
before and after my runs, so I have probably brought these problems on
myself!

Other than really focussing on specific hamstring stretching, cutting
down the running until all heals, doing more pre-run stretching and
pehaps some physio has anyone out there got any other ideas. I would
appreciate it.

Upper hamstring could be related to a lower back problem where the
sciatic nerve runs down the leg. This can cause pain the buttocks and
upper hamstring. This can be especially painful when sitting for extended
periods. As Howard245 said, it could be related to a tight piriformis
muscle, especially if the sciatic nerve runs through the piriformis. In
some people the sciatic nerve goes around the piriformis. A massage
therapist specializing in deep tissue massage may help. Make sure you're
doing the proper stretches, not just hamstring stretches, but stretching
the gluts, hips, piriformis.

By the way, this seems to be more common in runners in the 40 and up
group.

Piriformis syndrome
http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/piri.html
http://www.drbackman.com/piriformis-muscle-stretch.htm

Sciatica - http://www.spineuniverse.com/displayarticle.php/article46.html

Phil M.

--
"What counts in battle is what you do once the pain sets in." -John
Short, South African coach.