Recommended max spoke tension?

H. Guy said:

after toasting a set of MA3's, i'm building a set of
velocity aeroheads with an OC rim for the back. my
problem is i have no idea how tight my spokes should be!

everywhere i look i'm exhorted to "keep tension below
the manufacturer's recommended maximum tension," but
i can't seem to find that info at the manufacturer's
sites. as a regular (non-shop) guy, is there a place
online where somebody's been nice enough to collect
that info and put it up for the Rest Of Us?

call peter chisholm

Quoted message said:

most of my rims have been built @ between 110 & 130 Kgf,
but that was more than the MA3's could take.

Mavic says 90-95 by the way. That's your problem with the MA3's you built.
You can email them or call them. They will talk to you if you are a
consumer.

Eric

"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mavic says 90-95 by the way. That's your problem with the

MA3's you built.

Quoted message said:

You can email them or call them. They will talk to you if you

are a

Quoted message said:

consumer.

What is his problem with the MA3s -- over tension or under
tension? Anyway, Peter recommends 100kgf for right side on the
OCs. I used 120kgf and will see how that works out. For me,
100kgf is not enough to keep the wheel true without using some
sort of stick-'em, like Loctite or the expensive teflon thread
goop from Wheelsmith. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mavic says 90-95 by the way. That's your problem with the

MA3's you built.

Quoted message said:

You can email them or call them. They will talk to you if you

are a

Quoted message said:

consumer.

What is his problem with the MA3s -- over tension or under
tension? Anyway, Peter recommends 100kgf for right side on the
OCs. I used 120kgf and will see how that works out. For me,
100kgf is not enough to keep the wheel true without using some
sort of stick-'em, like Loctite or the expensive teflon thread
goop from Wheelsmith. -- Jay Beattie.

you're caught between a rock & a hard place. trouble is, modern dishing
is extreme [left side spoke tension on a campy 10 wheel are about 50% of
the drive side]. the rock is, as you say, those spokes do easily slack
and that can lead to nipples unscrewing. the hard place is that
increasing tension in an effort to make the left sides tighter raises
the drive side tension way above spec and can lead to rim reliability
problems. i know it may be distasteful to some, but using a thread lock
is neither unethical or expensive. linseed oil is cheap. a 10cc bottle
of loctite 290 is not that expensive either. go to one of those hideous
national bike store chains & check out their wheel selections. pretty
much all pre-built wheels these days use some form of thread locking.

jim beam said:

left side spoke tension on a campy 10 wheel are about 50% of
the drive side. the rock is, as you say, those spokes do easily slack
and that can lead to nipples unscrewing. the hard place is that
increasing tension in an effort to make the left sides tighter raises
the drive side tension way above spec and can lead to rim reliability
problems.

That's why I use thinner spokes on the left. At a given tension, they're
further into their elastic range, and less likely to go slack when you hit
a bump.

Art Harris

I meant your specific rims. Building rims 15-35kgf over tension must not be
good for the rim. Using 2.0/1.8 drive and 2.0/1.5 non is a great solution
as mentioned above. If you are getting spokes to slacken then use a higher
spoke count.

Eric

H. Guy said:

after toasting a set of MA3's, i'm building a set of
velocity aeroheads with an OC rim for the back. my
problem is i have no idea how tight my spokes should be!

I don't know how much tension a Velocity Aerohead OC can take. I
built mine to 100 kgf and Velocity builds theirs to ~105. I weigh
~200 lbs and the wheels have remained stable and there have been zero
spoke pull throughs.

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:03:20 -0800, jim beam <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

you're caught between a rock & a hard place. trouble is, modern dishing
is extreme [left side spoke tension on a campy 10 wheel are about 50% of
the drive side]. the rock is, as you say, those spokes do easily slack
and that can lead to nipples unscrewing. the hard place is that
increasing tension in an effort to make the left sides tighter raises
the drive side tension way above spec and can lead to rim reliability
problems

I've built Campy hubs into Velocity Aerohead OC and I never needed any
spoke locking stuff. I regularly had problems that you describe with
Mavic Helium wheels.

H Guy asks-<< after toasting a set of MA3's, i'm building a set of
velocity aeroheads with an OC rim for the back. my
problem is i have no idea how tight my spokes should be! >><BR><BR>
<< most of my rims have been built @ between 110 & 130 Kgf,
but that was more than the MA3's could take. >><BR><BR>

I recommend-"100 kgf on the rear, right side and on the front...after building
many Velocity Aeroheads."

130 kgf is too high for just about any rim, IMO.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Jim says-<< call peter chisholm >><BR><BR>

I say-thanks for the plug....

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

weel, now you know! or do you? is this humourous?
no. the max falls below your skill level not below the manufactureres
well spoken advice to be aware of your skill level before masserating
his rims.
j.brandt, a mythological californian rumoured to have written a book
on bicycle wheels, has written, assuming he exists, that all spokes
should have equal tension.
and off course that's true. true? get it? ok!
now, your problem, which has absolutely nothing to do with what
j.brandt is writing about thereabouts,proceeds to the point where
increasing tension devolves the rim's trueness into a sinewave rim,
the opposite of what j.brandt addresses in the equal tension concept,
a math certainty, a practical problem dealt with in eg. 'the wizard of
oz.'
PUGET SOUND BRIDGE SYNDROME!!: another flic on the subject worth yawl
attention.
over time and rims, yawl find that max tension levels,hopefully with
the spokes not the expletive deleted, will slowly increase, if your
smawt and add to your merntal capacity to advancewith each trueing.
problem maybe that yawl will never true enough to advance or will
forget the non-accumulated knowledge in betweentimes::
write a notebook-bike facts: section/wheel trueing.

Quoted message said:

increasing tension in an effort to make the left sides tighter raises
the drive side tension way above spec and can lead to rim reliability
problems.

i recently arrived and alluded at this trueing space: came up with the
idea, stillborn inpractice, that arriving at radial and lateral true
under any personally desirable max tension that is not ideal but
practical within the sinewave problem, one can tighten and loosen from
one side-first going in the exact dish direction, the tighten/tighten,
or tighten/loosen starting withn the opposite side, and repeat as
necessary thus working tension higher, dishing, and if this is done in
opposite quarters pawsibley avoiding a gradual decrease in true.
I'm not sure if that wood be clear to the uninitiated.

i know it may be distasteful to some, but using a thread lock

Quoted message said:

is neither unethical or expensive. linseed oil is cheap. a 10cc bottle
of loctite 290 is not that expensive either. go to one of those hideous
national bike store chains & check out their wheel selections. pretty
much all pre-built wheels these days use some form of thread locking.

yawl use 290 on de spokes? grate!! say, how clean are your spokes
before? clean new spokes? clean old lock out before adding new lock?
does it work? does 290 hold everything in place, that is solve the
spoke unwinding that goes on rearward-which i azzoooom is the wheel's
desire for progress toward j.brandt's math certainty that all spokes
will be at equal tension wether yawl care for it or not: gee, that
wood be swell no expletive deleted. at $12 under touring loads a
military defense establishment send for sure. wow, but one must stress
relieve, right? or wait to see after a few miles, wipe the nipple
tops/spoke bottomes off and apply-have an opinion on that one? does
the 290 require an exposed thread? or will it creepflow rimward down
the shaft then squeze between shaft and nipple to the thread's proper?
asking loctite wood be cool...

Leave the anerobic thread lockers alone. They are an overkill for spokes as is linseed oil. Both make a mess that can come back to bite you in the event you need to do a field repair.

I use rosin. The kind I have is you run of the mill music rosin. Chip a bit off the block and dissolve it in some denatured alcohol. A tiny drop applied to each nipple will prevent movement until you need to adjust, at that time the bond will break and it will ten act as a lubricant. In the shop, you just need to apply a few drops of alcohol to each nipple to break the bond.

It works by modifying the friction, much like oil which reduces friction, rosin increases it when dry.

g.daniels said:

Quoted message said:

increasing tension in an effort to make the left sides tighter raises
the drive side tension way above spec and can lead to rim reliability
problems.

i recently arrived and alluded at this trueing space: came up with the
idea, stillborn inpractice, that arriving at radial and lateral true
under any personally desirable max tension that is not ideal but
practical within the sinewave problem, one can tighten and loosen from
one side-first going in the exact dish direction, the tighten/tighten,
or tighten/loosen starting withn the opposite side, and repeat as
necessary thus working tension higher, dishing, and if this is done in
opposite quarters pawsibley avoiding a gradual decrease in true.
I'm not sure if that wood be clear to the uninitiated.

if building rears, i tighten left side till the thread just disppears,
then half-tension drive side concentrating on roundness. after that,
just tighten left side until true, checking drive side tension is within
spec. drive side for round, left for true until finished.

Quoted message said:

i know it may be distasteful to some, but using a thread lock

Quoted message said:

is neither unethical or expensive. linseed oil is cheap. a 10cc bottle
of loctite 290 is not that expensive either. go to one of those hideous
national bike store chains & check out their wheel selections. pretty
much all pre-built wheels these days use some form of thread locking.

yawl use 290 on de spokes? grate!! say, how clean are your spokes
before? clean new spokes?

if using new spokes & new brass nipples, they build well enough without
lube on the thread. it's only at crazy high tensions that threads start
to bind without lube. lube in the rim holes is good idea though. no
lube on the thread = no problem using 290 - it wicks.

Quoted message said:

clean old lock out before adding new lock?

if used before, yes, but you can get away with leaving the old stuff on.
it binds the threads a little, but not enough to be a real problem
usually.

Quoted message said:

does it work?

sure!

Quoted message said:

does 290 hold everything in place, that is solve the
spoke unwinding that goes on rearward-which i azzoooom is the wheel's
desire for progress toward j.brandt's math certainty that all spokes
will be at equal tension

spokes do need to be at the most even tension possible for their
respective sides.

Quoted message said:

wether yawl care for it or not: gee, that
wood be swell no expletive deleted. at $12 under touring loads a
military defense establishment send for sure. wow, but one must stress
relieve, right?

yes, "stress relief" beds the spokes in. with new components, if you
don't do it, the wheel will be badly out of true inside a mile.

Quoted message said:

or wait to see after a few miles, wipe the nipple
tops/spoke bottomes off and apply-have an opinion on that one? does
the 290 require an exposed thread? or will it creepflow rimward down
the shaft then squeze between shaft and nipple to the thread's proper?

290 wicks, so no, no exposed threads required. apply /after/ building.
any problems with disassembly, if encountered, can be solved with a
sub-dollar cigarette lighter.

Quoted message said:

asking loctite wood be cool...

loctite's not the answer to everything. it can't prevent local yielding
of the rim or hub holes. [that's what "stress relief" helps mitigate.]
but it does prevent spoke nipples unscrewing, particularly on heavily
dished rears where the left side spokes easily go slack.

Eric-<< Mavic says 90-95 by the way. That's your problem with the MA3's you
built.
You can email them or call them. They will talk to you if you are a
consumer. >><BR><BR>

I say-MA-3 were notorious for pulling eyelets out, why we stopped using them at
all. We even had a few where the left side rear pulled eyelets out...hardly
even 90 kgf.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

JIM!
"if building rears, i tighten left side till the thread just
disppears,
then half-tension drive side concentrating on roundness. after that,
just tighten left side until true, checking drive side tension is
within
spec. drive side for round, left for true until finished."

whew! my mind heats up trying to apply that,while computer op-ing,to
my rear true method. but, this problem is whatever motions i'm going
thru here leave the left side spokes in a too low tension state. so,
the back and forth idea not yet fully developed where the rim is
additive spoke tension tugged back and forth over the dishing
centerline while maintaining trueness.