How to fall?

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: I was riding today and took a spill while going about 13 mph. I was not
: seriously hurt.
:
: In another thread someone mentioned that someone when down and didn't get
: hurt because that person knew how to fall.
:
: So, how does one go down (take a spill) on a bike at speed to minimize
: injury?

I'm sorry to hear you fell, but this business about not getting hurt because
they knew how to fall is a bunch of hot air. When you fall, it's so fast
that you don't exactly have time to do a lot of maneuvers. You're lucky you
didn't break your collarbone---that is what seems to happen to everyone
around here who falls forward.

Pat in TX
:
:

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was riding today and took a spill while going about 13 mph. I was not
seriously hurt.

In another thread someone mentioned that someone when down and didn't get
hurt because that person knew how to fall.

So, how does one go down (take a spill) on a bike at speed to minimize
injury?

roll if you can. dont put your arms straight out or lock anything as less
resistance will prevent injury. i think "knowing how to fall" is something
that comes natural to many esp. mtn bikers who fall often. i used to go over
the bars on my mtn bike at least once/ride. but i didnt know that i knew how
to fall at high speed until last year going 25 i fell and landed on my
feet-knock on wood... i threw the bike and it took a harder spill that i
did.
-alan

Kevan Smith said:

Quoted message said:

I was riding today and took a spill while going about 13 mph. I
was not seriously hurt. In another thread someone mentioned that
someone when down and didn't get hurt because that person knew how
to fall. So, how does one go down (take a spill) on a bike at
speed to minimize injury?

Quoted message said:

Tuck your chin into your chest and roll. Instead of making impact on
small points, like elbows and knees or hands or things that can be
broken, try to land on large areas of soft tissue.

Oh noooooo! I though the "tuck and roll" story was dead forty years
ago, but no. Here it is again. In the many spills I an associates
have had, in road races, on the track and elsewhere, no one has ever
done a "tuck and roll". The best you can do is to not stick out an
arm or land bunched up, concentrating load on one point. Although I
can't say for sure, it seems my minimal injuries came from stretching
out and landing with an arm between head and ground.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

I concer with that. In my case one monent I was riding along the next
thing I know I was flyiing over the handle bar and then I landed
square on my left elbow. I was in a cast for 6 month with a shattered
elbow. Even after another 6 month of phseo I do not have full range of
movement with the arm.It took me 15 years to get the back in the
saddle again and even then I was prity scare for the first few rides.

Pat said:

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: I was riding today and took a spill while going about 13 mph. I was not
: seriously hurt.
:
: In another thread someone mentioned that someone when down and didn't get
: hurt because that person knew how to fall.
:
: So, how does one go down (take a spill) on a bike at speed to minimize
: injury?

I'm sorry to hear you fell, but this business about not getting hurt because
they knew how to fall is a bunch of hot air. When you fall, it's so fast
that you don't exactly have time to do a lot of maneuvers. You're lucky you
didn't break your collarbone---that is what seems to happen to everyone
around here who falls forward.

Pat in TX
:
:

Quoted message said:

Kevan Smith said:

Quoted message said:

I was riding today and took a spill while going about 13 mph. I
was not seriously hurt. In another thread someone mentioned that
someone when down and didn't get hurt because that person knew how
to fall. So, how does one go down (take a spill) on a bike at
speed to minimize injury?

Quoted message said:

Tuck your chin into your chest and roll. Instead of making impact on
small points, like elbows and knees or hands or things that can be
broken, try to land on large areas of soft tissue.

Oh noooooo! I though the "tuck and roll" story was dead forty years
ago, but no.

I'm sure it's very useful for when you get launched over your handle
bars, 40 feet into the air. :-/

Quoted message said:

Here it is again. In the many spills I an associates
have had, in road races, on the track and elsewhere, no one has ever
done a "tuck and roll". The best you can do is to not stick out an
arm or land bunched up, concentrating load on one point. Although I
can't say for sure, it seems my minimal injuries came from stretching
out and landing with an arm between head and ground.

Over the years I've had several accidents (none too serious). When off
roading I've planted my front wheel and gone over the handle bars (low
speed). I did a tuck and roll with the bicycle still attached. The
other was a fast downhill where the rear wheel launched and I tried to
eject. I did a tuck and roll (several times) down the hill. I was fine
until my shoulder snagged a root (broken clavical). I also struct a
low tree branch and landed flat on my back (hey the branch was
camouflaged!).

On the road I've been more fortunate. I wiped out one early morning
just after a rain storm. In a turn the bike went out from under me. I
stayed on the bike and managed to only scrap the pedal, my shoe and
handlebars. Don't ask how I managed to escape unscathed (???). At the
time I was more worried about not being out in traffic (lightly
traveled road). On another occasion I somehow managed to pull my foot
from my clipless, smashed the handle bar with my left knee and lifted
then entire bike off the ground (I was standing and accelerating hard,
in traffic). I somehow managed to stay on the bike and wrapped myself
around the bike. I had no road rash at all but I bruised my left rib
cage, tatoo'd a pretty good cut into my inner left thigh with the
chain ring and did the same with the right inner knee.

With the last 2 examples I had not chance for tuck and roll. In fact
it would have probably gotten me killed as I was in heavy traffic, in
the last example. At least now I know what it takes to stop traffic on
a 4 lane high way.

--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry [email hidden]
http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only)
http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II)
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog

Roger Zoul said:

I was riding today and took a spill while going about 13 mph. I was not
seriously hurt.

In another thread someone mentioned that someone when down and didn't get
hurt because that person knew how to fall.

So, how does one go down (take a spill) on a bike at speed to minimize
injury?

I'm replying to this after reading some of the other responses.

The ability to take a fall is more related to general athleticism and
proprioceptive sense than to anything that can be explained. These are more
characteristic of gymnasts than cyclists. Like anything these skills can be
trained and improved - some youth cycling programs include tumbling and grass
drills for the purpose. Some pro teams (like Phonak, maybe) should consider
adding them.

I don't think it's really possible to tell someone how to fall gracefully in any
reasonable number of words. All the advice depends on the ability to sense your
position and think and act AND have the musculature to do something about it.
The tuck and roll advice is silly except to making the point that you don't want
to land square on; land in a way that dissipates your inertia over a longer
distance. Nobody who has the skills to do that in an emergency doesn't
instinctively know to do that. Here's more advice: when you stick out an arm to
catch yourself, don't lock your elbow.

Throwing yourself around in the back yard and having been a kid crashing and
ruining cheap bikes will have taught you more than all possible advice.

Ron

Pat said:

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: I was riding today and took a spill while going about 13 mph. I was not
: seriously hurt.
:
: In another thread someone mentioned that someone when down and didn't get
: hurt because that person knew how to fall.
:
: So, how does one go down (take a spill) on a bike at speed to minimize
: injury?

I'm sorry to hear you fell, but this business about not getting hurt because
they knew how to fall is a bunch of hot air. When you fall, it's so fast
that you don't exactly have time to do a lot of maneuvers. You're lucky you
didn't break your collarbone---that is what seems to happen to everyone
around here who falls forward.

Pat in TX
:
:

I didn't break my collarbone! I broke my sternum in 2 places and
separated my shoulder. Screw comes out tomorrow.
I have immense respect for those riders that keep on going after bad
falls. They must consume huge amounts of painkillers though.

Dave (also in TX)

:: I didn't break my collarbone! I broke my sternum in 2 places and
: separated my shoulder. Screw comes out tomorrow.
: I have immense respect for those riders that keep on going after bad
: falls. They must consume huge amounts of painkillers though.
:
: Dave (also in TX)

Yeah, well, Texans are tough! But, what the heck did you land on?

Pat in TX

: >Oh noooooo! I though the "tuck and roll" story was dead forty years
: >ago, but no. Here it is again.
:
: That's because it's a time-proven way to avoid injury. If you don't
beleive
: it, look at those people whos job it is to take serious falls over and
over --
: pro wrestlers. That seems funny, but watch the position of their chins in
: their acrobatic falls. The rolling part isn't always necessary, but it
helps,
: too, because it spreads the loss of speed over a longer time period.
:--
: Kevan Smith

It's not that "tuck and roll" is a bad way to fall; it's because on a
bicycle you simply don't have time to plan your moves along with releasing
your feet from the pedals, etc. It seems to me that pro wrestlers also are
falling on a bouncy mat---correct me if I'm wrong---but I don't know of any
bicycle falls on soft mats.

Pat in TX

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:12:46 GMT, Kevan Smith <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

from said:

Oh noooooo! I though the "tuck and roll" story was dead forty years
ago, but no. Here it is again.

That's because it's a time-proven way to avoid injury. If you don't beleive
it, look at those people whos job it is to take serious falls over and over --
pro wrestlers. That seems funny, but watch the position of their chins in
their acrobatic falls. The rolling part isn't always necessary, but it helps,
too, because it spreads the loss of speed over a longer time period.

Are your cycling spills as choreographed and pre-meditated as the
falls performed by pro wrestlers?

I rarely hit the deck when cycling, but the sequence seems to go:

1) Is that patch of road just damp, or is it frozen?
2) Ow! [censored]! Hope the bike's ok.

Maybe my mountain biking bretheren who are attempting technical
sections at slow speeds have the chance to try out circus tricks on
the way down. On the road however, losing it sideways or over the bars
happens at such speed that conscious action has never been a concern,
for me at least.

Pat wrote:
|||| Oh noooooo! I though the "tuck and roll" story was dead forty
|||| years ago, but no. Here it is again.
|||
||| That's because it's a time-proven way to avoid injury. If you don't
||| beleive it, look at those people whos job it is to take serious
||| falls over and over -- pro wrestlers. That seems funny, but watch
||| the position of their chins in their acrobatic falls. The rolling
||| part isn't always necessary, but it helps, too, because it spreads
||| the loss of speed over a longer time period.
|| :--
||| Kevan Smith
||
|| It's not that "tuck and roll" is a bad way to fall; it's because on a
|| bicycle you simply don't have time to plan your moves along with
|| releasing your feet from the pedals, etc. It seems to me that pro
|| wrestlers also are falling on a bouncy mat---correct me if I'm
|| wrong---but I don't know of any bicycle falls on soft mats.
||

Plus, pro wrestlers pretty much know what's going to happen to them so they
simply move into it. Seems that much of what they do is scripted.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm sorry to hear you fell, but this business about not getting hurt because
they knew how to fall is a bunch of hot air. When you fall, it's so fast
that you don't exactly have time to do a lot of maneuvers. You're lucky you
didn't break your collarbone---that is what seems to happen to everyone
around here who falls forward.

Pat in TX
:

Saturday when I fell off my bike, I was not expecting it and I just
fell. I did not have time to think about how to fall, I was on the
ground in a blink of an eye. My daughter was watching me and when she
realized her 50 year old Mom was not dead, she went hysterical
LAUGHING. They are having alot of fun with my new found fondness for
riding my bike. Between watching the dog run with me and watching me
fall and damn near kill myself....they think I am nuts. I agree with
the above...... falls happen so fast and are so unexpected that there
is not alot of time to put your body into a safe falling position. I
think my best bet is to stay on the bike paths. At my age, I can't
take alot of falls.

David Forbes said:

Pat said:

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: I was riding today and took a spill while going about 13 mph. I was not
: seriously hurt.
:
: In another thread someone mentioned that someone when down and didn't get
: hurt because that person knew how to fall.
:
: So, how does one go down (take a spill) on a bike at speed to minimize
: injury?

I'm sorry to hear you fell, but this business about not getting hurt because
they knew how to fall is a bunch of hot air. When you fall, it's so fast
that you don't exactly have time to do a lot of maneuvers. You're lucky you
didn't break your collarbone---that is what seems to happen to everyone
around here who falls forward.

Pat in TX
:
:

I didn't break my collarbone! I broke my sternum in 2 places and
separated my shoulder. Screw comes out tomorrow.
I have immense respect for those riders that keep on going after bad
falls. They must consume huge amounts of painkillers though.

Dave (also in TX)

A broke sternum?!?!?!

Guess it hurts when you laugh.

I broke a rib in a crash years ago, that was bad enough.

Ron

Maggie wrote:
|||| I'm sorry to hear you fell, but this business about not getting
|||| hurt because they knew how to fall is a bunch of hot air. When you
|||| fall, it's so fast that you don't exactly have time to do a lot of
|||| maneuvers. You're lucky you didn't break your collarbone---that is
|||| what seems to happen to everyone around here who falls forward.
||||
|||| Pat in TX
|||||
||
|| Saturday when I fell off my bike, I was not expecting it and I just
|| fell. I did not have time to think about how to fall, I was on the
|| ground in a blink of an eye. My daughter was watching me and when
|| she realized her 50 year old Mom was not dead, she went hysterical
|| LAUGHING. They are having alot of fun with my new found fondness for
|| riding my bike. Between watching the dog run with me and watching me
|| fall and damn near kill myself....they think I am nuts. I agree with
|| the above...... falls happen so fast and are so unexpected that there
|| is not alot of time to put your body into a safe falling position. I
|| think my best bet is to stay on the bike paths. At my age, I can't
|| take alot of falls.

I hope you weren't hurt.

: Saturday when I fell off my bike, I was not expecting it and I just
: fell. I did not have time to think about how to fall, I was on the
: ground in a blink of an eye. My daughter was watching me and when she
: realized her 50 year old Mom was not dead, she went hysterical
: LAUGHING. They are having alot of fun with my new found fondness for
: riding my bike. Between watching the dog run with me and watching me
: fall and damn near kill myself....they think I am nuts. I agree with
: the above...... falls happen so fast and are so unexpected that there
: is not alot of time to put your body into a safe falling position. I
: think my best bet is to stay on the bike paths. At my age, I can't
: take alot of falls.

Your family doesn't sound too supportive. Why are they making fun of you?

Pat in TX

Roger Zoul said:

Plus, pro wrestlers pretty much know what's going to happen to them
so they simply move into it. Seems that much of what they do is
scripted.

The hell you say!

Still rooting for Bruno Samartino,

--
BS (no, really)

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

:: I didn't break my collarbone! I broke my sternum in 2 places and
: separated my shoulder. Screw comes out tomorrow.
: I have immense respect for those riders that keep on going after bad
: falls. They must consume huge amounts of painkillers though.
:
: Dave (also in TX)

Yeah, well, Texans are tough! But, what the heck did you land on?

Pat in TX

....maybe an armadillo...

"nobody" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:12:46 GMT, Kevan Smith <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 06:07:09 GMT, [email hidden] from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh noooooo! I though the "tuck and roll" story was dead forty years
ago, but no. Here it is again.

That's because it's a time-proven way to avoid injury. If you don't

beleive

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it, look at those people whos job it is to take serious falls over and

over --

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pro wrestlers. That seems funny, but watch the position of their chins in
their acrobatic falls. The rolling part isn't always necessary, but it

helps,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

too, because it spreads the loss of speed over a longer time period.

Are your cycling spills as choreographed and pre-meditated as the
falls performed by pro wrestlers?

I rarely hit the deck when cycling, but the sequence seems to go:

1) Is that patch of road just damp, or is it frozen?
2) Ow! [censored]! Hope the bike's ok.

Maybe my mountain biking bretheren who are attempting technical
sections at slow speeds have the chance to try out circus tricks on
the way down. On the road however, losing it sideways or over the bars
happens at such speed that conscious action has never been a concern,
for me at least.

you can learn to react automatically without it being a conscious action-i
mean the learning/training part is conscious but doing it becomes ingrained.
i know that most people dont have the opportunity do do this-but maybe they
have and dont know it. you'll see when you end up on your feet and wonder
"how the heck did i do that?" actually that's what martial arts are all
about. doing tiger-rolls over and over trains the body to tuck and roll
without thinking about it. it works amazingly well. without tuck and roll my
neck would have been broken years ago.
-alan

"alan" wrote: you can learn to react automatically without it being a
conscious action-i

Quoted message said:

mean the learning/training part is conscious but doing it becomes
ingrained.
i know that most people dont have the opportunity do do this-but maybe
they
have and dont know it. you'll see when you end up on your feet and wonder
"how the heck did i do that?" actually that's what martial arts are all
about. doing tiger-rolls over and over trains the body to tuck and roll
without thinking about it. it works amazingly well. without tuck and roll
my
neck would have been broken years ago.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is what it's about. Never mind the stuff about professional wrestling.
We know that's phony. Look at major league baseball players--the amazing
coordination they display under rapidly unfolding conditions. I certainly
agree that a person being helplessly propelled by momentum in an accident
doesn't have time or strength to react. On the other hand, a person who
falls off a ladder may be able to minimize or avoid injury by doing just the
right moves.

Mountain bike riders fall a lot. This is considered part of the experience,
and I think it is a kind of practice which has survival benefits which also
carry over into road riding.