The 4-way stop problem

Ron Hardin said:

The heaviest go-ahead-before-me signallers by the way have tinted
windows as well as bright reflections in their windshields.

Or are waving you through at dusk when they have their headlights on.
It's the reverse ostrich effect: "I can see you and therefore you can
see me."

In article <[email hidden]>, Ron Hardin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The solution to the 4-way stop problem at busy intersections, namely
as you roll up, remember which car your turn is after but DON'T LOOK
AT THE NEXT GUY OR HIS CAR; if anything look away from them, so they can't
signal invisibly for you to go before them, as if this was doing you
a favor - anyway if you use this solution then you haven't made eye
contact either, and so naturally one in a hundred starts up after you're
well into the intersection, and there's the problem.

The safest way is to NEVER assume you'll ge the right of way. Too many times
I've been consigned to the center line after coming to a full stop, waving the
next car on and then finding that the one behind the one I waved on assumes I
waved them on as well . . . or something like that. When I reach a 4-way at
which I have to turn left on my way home from work I usually turn right and
then make a U turn after there is a break in the traffic. It's a lot safer and
easier on my blood pressure.

Tom Gibb <[email hidden]>

Ron Hardin said:

The solution to the 4-way stop problem at busy intersections, namely
as you roll up, remember which car your turn is after but DON'T LOOK
AT THE NEXT GUY OR HIS CAR; if anything look away from them, so they
can't signal invisibly for you to go before them, as if this was
doing you a favor - anyway if you use this solution then you haven't
made eye contact either, and so naturally one in a hundred starts up
after you're well into the intersection, and there's the problem.

Here in the SF area, a story made the news about drivers who offer the
right-of-way to others who don't have it. On HWY152, a heavily
traveled route, at a cross road with stop signs and light traffic,
"go-ahead-before-me" types were causing huge back-ups on HWY152, so
the highway patrol issued expensive citations to the do gooders for
obstructing traffic.

Quoted message said:

You haven't made yourself visible by looking at them until they see
you, until they tremble and it's safe to go.

Quoted message said:

The heaviest go-ahead-before-me signalers by the way have tinted
windows as well as bright reflections in their windshields.

There are also folks who follow bicyclists on mountain roads and won't
pass, even though the bicyclist is riding outside the edge stripe.
When the rider stops and balances in place they floor it up the far
side of the road, often discovering that there IS oncoming traffic.
These drivers are known as "bike watchers". If you don't force them
to pass, all cars piling up behind them get annoyed at the bicyclists,
rather than the bike watcher. Don't assume it's his problem, because
you inherit the ire of following drivers.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The heaviest go-ahead-before-me signallers by the way have tinted
windows as well as bright reflections in their windshields.

Or are waving you through at dusk when they have their headlights on.
It's the reverse ostrich effect: "I can see you and therefore you can
see me."

When traffic is heavy, I make a point of moving into the center of the
lane, preventing the vehicle behind me from simultaneously entering
the intersection. Then I treat the intersection as if I were a
motorized vehicle.

I think this reinforces the bicycle-is-a-vehicle status. Most drivers
seem to get it....and I live in a city where motorists are often
uncomfortable or misinformed about cyclists on the road.

Also, I agree about the eye contact (or lack of) idea. When traffic
is heavy, everyone is forced to stop (or start slowly), so if you
enter the intersection in the proper order, it is much less likely
that you will be creamed. Entering assertively without making eye
contact reinforces the idea that you have right-of-way (vehicle
status). Of course, I'm not suggesting that you *ignore* what other
drivers are doing; that could be dangerous. Wear sunglasses whenever
possible! :-)

Safer cycling requires that motorists become more educated. Having
said that, I think the biggest hindrance to educated drivers is
'people-on-bicycles' (not the same thing as cyclists). These are the
people who ride on sidewalks, blow through stop signs/red lights, and
ride in the dark with no lights. These actions confuse/anger drivers,
so I am not terribly surprised that the average motorist doesn't know
what to do when they encounter a real cyclist.

This is getting off topic...soon I'll be ranting about requirements to
obtain a cyclist licence. Time to quit before this turns into a
book.....

Cheers,
Dave

Quoted message said:

Ron Hardin said:

The solution to the 4-way stop problem at busy intersections, namely
as you roll up, remember which car your turn is after but DON'T LOOK
AT THE NEXT GUY OR HIS CAR; if anything look away from them, so they
can't signal invisibly for you to go before them, as if this was
doing you a favor - anyway if you use this solution then you haven't
made eye contact either, and so naturally one in a hundred starts up
after you're well into the intersection, and there's the problem.

Here in the SF area, a story made the news about drivers who offer the
right-of-way to others who don't have it. On HWY152, a heavily
traveled route, at a cross road with stop signs and light traffic,
"go-ahead-before-me" types were causing huge back-ups on HWY152, so
the highway patrol issued expensive citations to the do gooders for
obstructing traffic.

Quoted message said:

You haven't made yourself visible by looking at them until they see
you, until they tremble and it's safe to go.

Quoted message said:

The heaviest go-ahead-before-me signalers by the way have tinted
windows as well as bright reflections in their windshields.

There are also folks who follow bicyclists on mountain roads and won't
pass, even though the bicyclist is riding outside the edge stripe.
When the rider stops and balances in place they floor it up the far
side of the road, often discovering that there IS oncoming traffic.
These drivers are known as "bike watchers". If you don't force them
to pass, all cars piling up behind them get annoyed at the bicyclists,
rather than the bike watcher. Don't assume it's his problem, because
you inherit the ire of following drivers.

Both of these things are problems here in the South, where people are so
pathologically polite, as well as timid behind the wheel. We deal with the bike
watchers by waving them through. This shows we're courteous too, with a spirit
of cooperation that most polite people appreciate. I'm not sure the bike
watchers are doing this out of courtesy -- more likely it's fear. So being the
first to extend the courtesy (and encouragement) helps.

I agree about taking the lane and not making eye contact at 4-way stops. This
is how I deal with it.

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The solution to the 4-way stop problem at busy intersections,
namely as you roll up, remember which car your turn is after but
DON'T LOOK AT THE NEXT GUY OR HIS CAR; if anything look away from
them, so they can't signal invisibly for you to go before them, as
if this was doing you a favor - anyway if you use this solution
then you haven't made eye contact either, and so naturally one in
a hundred starts up after you're well into the intersection, and
there's the problem.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here in the SF area, a story made the news about drivers who offer
the right-of-way to others who don't have it. On HWY152, a heavily
traveled route, at a cross road with stop signs and light traffic,
"go-ahead-before-me" types were causing huge back-ups on HWY152, so
the highway patrol issued expensive citations to the do gooders for
obstructing traffic.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You haven't made yourself visible by looking at them until they
see you, until they tremble and it's safe to go.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The heaviest go-ahead-before-me signalers by the way have tinted
windows as well as bright reflections in their windshields.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are also folks who follow bicyclists on mountain roads and
won't pass, even though the bicyclist is riding outside the edge
stripe. When the rider stops and balances in place they floor it
up the far side of the road, often discovering that there IS
oncoming traffic. These drivers are known as "bike watchers". If
you don't force them to pass, all cars piling up behind them get
annoyed at the bicyclists, rather than the bike watcher. Don't
assume it's his problem, because you inherit the ire of following
drivers.

Quoted message said:

Both of these things are problems here in the South, where people
are so pathologically polite, as well as timid behind the wheel. We
deal with the bike watchers by waving them through. This shows
we're courteous too, with a spirit of cooperation that most polite
people appreciate. I'm not sure the bike watchers are doing this
out of courtesy -- more likely it's fear. So being the first to
extend the courtesy (and encouragement) helps.

I avoid giving them any signals because if they cause an incident with
oncoming traffic, the "wave-on person" can be cited for contributing
to the incident. A "track stand" leaves the decision entirely to the
car driver and there is nothing in a following accident report that
could put any burden on the bicyclist.

I find that bike watchers follow the scenario of "Look, there's
another one of those fools on a bicycle blocking the road. In an
alarmist posture, the driver lingers behind the bicyclist. I get that
from glaring looks I have observed and from the extreme diversion to
the other side of the road at full throttle... as I see it the driver
is frustrated because his ploy didn't work.

Quoted message said:

I agree about taking the lane and not making eye contact at 4-way
stops. This is how I deal with it.

I disagree on "taking the lane", because that imputes the skill of all
following drivers, in so many words, telling them that they are too
stupid to make reasonable decisions and that they are not pressed for
time. It is much like meeting cars on narrow residential streets
where some drives make the same assumption instead of realizing that
most drivers pass with a modicum of skill with no hazard.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Matt O'Toole <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We
deal with the bike watchers by waving them through. This shows
we're courteous too, with a spirit of cooperation that most polite
people appreciate. I'm not sure the bike watchers are doing this
out of courtesy -- more likely it's fear. So being the first to
extend the courtesy (and encouragement) helps.

Quoted message said:

I avoid giving them any signals because if they cause an incident with
oncoming traffic, the "wave-on person" can be cited for contributing
to the incident. A "track stand" leaves the decision entirely to the
car driver and there is nothing in a following accident report that
could put any burden on the bicyclist.

I don't give wave-on signals to people at intersections -- only the ones failing
to pass on the open road. Especially if I come to a blind crest ahead of a car
and I can see the road is clear.

Conversely, it may be wise to block them to avoid having them pass at a bad
time, by riding further out, taking the lane, and giving a wait" hand signal.
There's one spot I ride regularly where there's a narrow road climbing a hill,
with a sharp blind crest in the middle, right next to a huge tree. I'm usually
going about 12 MPH right there, right at the edge of the road. I've had several
drivers pass right there, before the crest, twice almost causing a head on
collision with a car they couldn't see. Since then I've been riding further out
to discourage this, and it seems to have worked. No one has tried to pass there
since.

Quoted message said:

I find that bike watchers follow the scenario of "Look, there's
another one of those fools on a bicycle blocking the road. In an
alarmist posture, the driver lingers behind the bicyclist. I get that
from glaring looks I have observed and from the extreme diversion to
the other side of the road at full throttle... as I see it the driver
is frustrated because his ploy didn't work.

This definately happens. But a lot of drivers really are so timid that they
can't deal with an unusual "hazard" like a cyclist. They can't/won't negotiate
narrow spaces. If they don't have at least 10 feet to each side they freeze. I
observe the same behaviour while driving, when people won't go around a car
making a left turn, etc. I've had passengers like this, who freak out when I
pass a cyclist, leaving plenty of room (at least 3'😉.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I agree about taking the lane and not making eye contact at 4-way
stops. This is how I deal with it.

I disagree on "taking the lane", because that imputes the skill of all
following drivers, in so many words, telling them that they are too
stupid to make reasonable decisions

Well? What if you let one squeeze by dangerously closely -- might the others
take that as an invitation to do the same?

Quoted message said:

and that they are not pressed for
time.

That's their problem, not mine. I'd never block anyone just to be difficult,
but I reserve my right to do whatever's legal to keep myself safe, as I decide
the situation calls for.

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When traffic is heavy, I make a point of moving into the
center of the lane, preventing the vehicle behind me from
simultaneously entering the intersection. Then I treat the
intersection as if I were a motorized vehicle.

I agree about taking the lane and not making eye contact at
4-way stops. This is how I deal with it.

I disagree on "taking the lane", because that imputes the
skill of all following drivers, in so many words, telling
them that they are too stupid to make reasonable decisions
and that they are not pressed for time.

I also disagree with "taking the lane", but not because I impute
anything resembling skill to car-drivers: on the contrary, it is
precisely because significant numbers of them have demonstrated that
they are too stupid to make reasonable decisions, and appear to be
constantly pressed for time, that I make an effort to avoid being in
"their" way as much as possible.

--
"Bicycling is a healthy and manly pursuit with much
to recommend it, and, unlike other foolish crazes,
it has not died out." -- The Daily Telegraph (1877)

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I disagree on "taking the lane", because that imputes the
skill of all following drivers, in so many words, telling
them that they are too stupid to make reasonable decisions
and that they are not pressed for time.

I also disagree with "taking the lane", but not because I impute
anything resembling skill to car-drivers: on the contrary, it is
precisely because significant numbers of them have demonstrated that
they are too stupid to make reasonable decisions, and appear to be
constantly pressed for time, that I make an effort to avoid being in
"their" way as much as possible.

As a follow-up, I re-iterate that I only take the lane in *heavy*
traffic conditions. At a 4-way under these conditions, everyone needs
to stop (barring the *really* ignorant/stupid drivers). Since I
generally accelerate as fast (or faster, in most cases) as a typical
vehicle, I don't feel that I am slowing anyone down by taking the
lane....I'm simply another vehicle in the queue, waiting for a turn to
go through the intersection. I don't think this approach is ignorant
or condescending to drivers as it (a) doesn't significantly affect the
time it takes them to get through the intersection (heavy traffic,
remember)and (b) reaffirms the idea that a bicycle is a vehicle, which
I feel is good for the cycling community as a whole. Personally, I
believe that cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as
operators of vehicles.

Also, I am curious about how cyclists handle slow moving traffic in
other conditions. For example, when approaching a red light where a
handful of cars have already stopped in front of me, I make a point of
stopping behind the last vehicle instead of sliding to the front of
the line. Usually, I stop behind their bumper so that I am just
visible in their rear-view mirror (off to the right side of the car).
In my opinion, this indicates to the car in front of me (as well as
behind) that I am acting as a vehicle. When the light turns green I
proceed normally, riding on the right-hand side of the road.

Where I live, the chance of a bicycle outpacing traffic is slim
(unless in rush hour) because traffic patterns are generally light.
So stopping behind a line of cars instead of slipping by them doesn't
really cost the cyclist much time. I think that if I lived in a
larger city with plenty of slow-moving traffic, my thought process
would have to change. For those who bike during periods of heavy
traffic, do you simply pass vehicles on the right? What happens when
a vehicle is too close to the curb to safely pass? Do you then stop?
Perhaps you 'hop the curb' to get by the vehicle?

Just some thoughts going through my head.....I tend to avoid rush hour
for my cycling efforts.

Cheers,
Dave

Borrall Wonnell asked:

Quoted message said:

For those who bike during periods of heavy traffic, do you
simply pass vehicles on the right?

Yep.

Quoted message said:

What happens when a vehicle is too close to the curb to
safely pass? Do you then stop?

Yep, unless I can get by on the left.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you 'hop the curb' to get by the vehicle?

Nope: most curbs here are a hazard to hop.

Quoted message said:

I tend to avoid rush hour for my cycling efforts.

I wish I could too, but that's when I'm riding to/from work.

--
"Bicycling is a healthy and manly pursuit with much
to recommend it, and, unlike other foolish crazes,
it has not died out." -- The Daily Telegraph (1877)

Sometimes I get off and walk. Then I know I have the right of way.