Establishing Basic Form

"Natalie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Any advice experts or novices or inbetween can
give would be great!

Hey, Nat, no advice on running, but go beg, borrow or buy a copy of 'Hot
Stuff' by The Killers and listen to the song 'Believe me Natalie'. It's
what your name was meant for...

"np426z" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hey, Nat, no advice on running, but go beg, borrow or buy a copy of 'Hot
Stuff' by The Killers and listen to the song 'Believe me Natalie'. It's
what your name was meant for...

OK, should be 'Hot Fuss'. Got over-excited at seeing a real 'Natalie' on
rec.running.

Quoted message said:

seeing a real 'Natalie' on
rec.running.

This is the internet, what on earth makes you think that's her real name? It's
probably "Bob".

natalie, some of the best runners in the world run counter/contrary to so
called "ideal" form. if you're asking about form you might as well be asking
about foot strikiing and breathing. in other words, sounds like you're ready
for some reading on performance running. i have one book called "explosive
running" that i actually have yet to read...(check out amazon)...others around
here might suggest some other next level foundation steps for you. my
suggestion is to read up and take a look of the lay of the land, the landscape
of the next level realm of runner you're looking to enter....you'll ultimately
find your own way. good luck in your race.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Natalie said:

I have started working hard to be ready for the Pheonix half marathon.
It is my first major race, and while I'm not worried about making the
distance, I am wondering about the best ways to develop a good runners
"form." I know this will not only help cut down on my time, but also
preserve my health! Any advice experts or novices or inbetween can
give would be great!

As someone else in this thread answered, there can be quite a bit of
variation in form among world class runners. So you might need to
find the form which is best for you, instead of some ideal "Basic"
form.

I'm no expert. But I did experiment with a couple things in my own
running form to see if they would help efficiency. I tried playing
with my breathing timing, changing the number of steps for breath in and
breath out. Decided not to change anything. I also measured (counting
the number of steps per minute) and experimented with my cadence.
I decided to work on increasing the cadence I was using for my slower
runs to closer to 180 foot falls per minute (I actually count every
other step, or 90 cycles per minute). This supposedly helps decrease
overstride and heel impact inefficiency. So far, increasing my cadence
hasn't hurt, and it seems to maybe help my endurance (I recently ran,
albeit very slowly, my first half marathon).

IMHO. YMMV.
--
Ron Nicholson rhn AT nicholson DOT com http://www.nicholson.com/rhn/
#include <canonical.disclaimer> // only my own opinions, etc.

"Ronald H. Nicholson Jr." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Natalie said:

I have started working hard to be ready for the Pheonix half marathon.
It is my first major race, and while I'm not worried about making the
distance, I am wondering about the best ways to develop a good runners
"form." I know this will not only help cut down on my time, but also
preserve my health! Any advice experts or novices or inbetween can
give would be great!

As someone else in this thread answered, there can be quite a bit of
variation in form among world class runners. So you might need to
find the form which is best for you, instead of some ideal "Basic"
form.

I agree. When working with new people and form, I try to get them to run
with a straight back - not leaning in or back. Good upright form will
minimize overstriding and likely get you to run with a midfoot strike
and reasonable cadence. Stay with that for while. Change too many
variables at once and your asking for trouble. As for the 180 line in
the sand, worry about that if you expect to run at the elite level. If
your 165 to 175 you're fine - any less or more something sounds forced.

-DF

Lanceandrew said:

natalie, some of the best runners in the world run counter/contrary to so
called "ideal" form. if you're asking about form you might as well be asking
about foot strikiing and breathing. in other words, sounds like you're ready
for some reading on performance running. i have one book called "explosive
running"

That book was highly recommended. I tried to change my gait following
it's directions, for just 15 minutes on a treadmill, and tore a ligament
in my foot. I'd be careful.

that i actually have yet to read...(check out amazon)...others around

Quoted message said:

here might suggest some other next level foundation steps for you. my
suggestion is to read up and take a look of the lay of the land, the landscape
of the next level realm of runner you're looking to enter....you'll ultimately
find your own way. good luck in your race.

"FabulustRunner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

seeing a real 'Natalie' on
rec.running.

This is the internet, what on earth makes you think that's her real name?

It's

Quoted message said:

probably "Bob".

Hey! Will you bugger off and leave me alone with my fantasies?

Quoted message said:

Hey! Will you bugger off and leave me alone with my fantasies?

LOL! Ok then.

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I agree. When working with new people and form, I try to get them to run
with a straight back - not leaning in or back. Good upright form will
minimize overstriding and likely get you to run with a midfoot strike
and reasonable cadence. Stay with that for while. Change too many
variables at once and your asking for trouble. As for the 180 line in
the sand, worry about that if you expect to run at the elite level. If
your 165 to 175 you're fine - any less or more something sounds forced.

I agree.

Every once in a while I try to get my stride up to 180, but at my weight,
173-6 is the comfy spot for me. When I was younger and skinnier (140#), I
was 180, and 190 when racing.

I think that stride rate is partly a function of lower leg mass. The
skinnier the calves, the faster the natural resonance, imo.

Even as I fluctuate +/- 5 lbs, I notice a distinct increase/decrease in my
natural stride rate.

-- Dan

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I agree. When working with new people and form, I try to get them to run
with a straight back - not leaning in or back. Good upright form will
minimize overstriding and likely get you to run with a midfoot strike
and reasonable cadence. Stay with that for while. Change too many
variables at once and your asking for trouble. As for the 180 line in
the sand, worry about that if you expect to run at the elite level. If
your 165 to 175 you're fine - any less or more something sounds forced.

I agree.

Every once in a while I try to get my stride up to 180, but at my weight,
173-6 is the comfy spot for me. When I was younger and skinnier (140#), I
was 180, and 190 when racing.

I think that stride rate is partly a function of lower leg mass. The
skinnier the calves, the faster the natural resonance, imo.

Even as I fluctuate +/- 5 lbs, I notice a distinct increase/decrease in my
natural stride rate.

My stride rate is in the low 180's when training and low
190's when racing these days.

I remember it was here on this group that I found out about
the optimal stride. At the time I was running in the low 170's.
I remember excitedly going out for a run and trying to speed
up my stride to hit 180/minute. I remember those days of
trying so many things to improve. I'm not trying to advocate
anything one way or the other; you both have raised good
points. Still, I can vividly remember that run from a few
years ago, trying to hit a cadence of 180.

And then upon doing so I had a sort of small revelation,
realizing that in my attempt to quicken the steps I had
subconsciously shortened my stride a bit, and this in turn
had set in motion a few little changes, such as less of an
overstride and a new appreciation of my center of gravity,
in terms of footstrike timing relating to what's going on with
the rest of my body at that moment. It was a bunch of
subtle things that really, profoundly changed my form.
All from rec.running discussion.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton ON)
www.absolutelyaccurate.com
www.allfalldown.org

Quoted message said:

From: "SwStudio"

Quoted message said:

And then upon doing so I had a sort of small revelation,
realizing that in my attempt to quicken the steps I had
subconsciously shortened my stride a bit, and this in turn
had set in motion a few little changes, such as less of an
overstride and a new appreciation of my center of gravity,

Funny this should come up...I have been running with my dog recently, and she
is one of those breeds that likes to sprint all-out from the get-go. Still in
recovery mode from Ironman (and a subsequent trail half-marathon a week ago
Sunday), I felt there was no way I could run with her and have her let it all
hang out, as it were...

Well, one night I decided to try something, and lo and behold I quickened my
cadence, as the longer stride was just too painful to keep up for any length of
time. And damn if I wasn't able to run a whole lot faster than I thought I
could.

Now, I didn't count the strides but I know that I was, and have since on
several more runs with the dog, noticably run at a much faster leg turnover
than before; no pain at all, and the dog could run free as a...dog, at least
for a while.

Just have to work on that "falling downhill" thing now.... ;-)

Mike C

Quoted message said:

And damn if I wasn't able to run a whole lot faster than I thought I
could.

By the end of your runs the mutt should be lagging behind. I've yet to see a
dog I couldn't out distance, it's just a matter of going far enough.

[email hidden] (FabulustRunner) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And damn if I wasn't able to run a whole lot faster than I thought I
could.

By the end of your runs the mutt should be lagging behind. I've yet to see a
dog I couldn't out distance, it's just a matter of going far enough.

You Kentucky people kill me! Imagine not only marrying your sister,
but going on a newsgroup and bragging about outrunning her too.

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I agree. When working with new people and form, I try to get them to run
with a straight back - not leaning in or back. Good upright form will
minimize overstriding and likely get you to run with a midfoot strike
and reasonable cadence. Stay with that for while. Change too many
variables at once and your asking for trouble. As for the 180 line in
the sand, worry about that if you expect to run at the elite level. If
your 165 to 175 you're fine - any less or more something sounds forced.

I agree.

Every once in a while I try to get my stride up to 180, but at my weight,
173-6 is the comfy spot for me. When I was younger and skinnier (140#), I
was 180, and 190 when racing.

I think that stride rate is partly a function of lower leg mass. The
skinnier the calves, the faster the natural resonance, imo.

Even as I fluctuate +/- 5 lbs, I notice a distinct increase/decrease in my
natural stride rate.

-- Dan

Glad to hear I'm not the only one, 170 - 174 seems to be my comfort zone,
I can hit 180 but it's not at all comfortable. I count steps when doing 1
minute hard X 1 minute easy workouts so I don't have to keep consulting my
watch.
I agree about weight being a limiting factor also, I'm not a small person.

Parker

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the tips...I'll look up the song (I'm
always after good workout music) and um...how do I say this nicely?
Stop the fantasizing, it's a runner's board!

Quoted message said:

Stop the fantasizing, it's a runner's board!

Populated by male runners who are no different than other males, except we run.

Quoted message said:

You Kentucky people kill me! Imagine not only marrying your sister,
but going on a newsgroup and bragging about outrunning her too.

Sorry mr wobbot, I'm from not very far from you.

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article said:

I have started working hard to be ready for the Pheonix half marathon.
It is my first major race, and while I'm not worried about making the
distance, I am wondering about the best ways to develop a good runners
"form." I know this will not only help cut down on my time, but also
preserve my health! Any advice experts or novices or inbetween can
give would be great!

-Natalie

Natalie,

Here's a post from Robert Grumbine talking about basic form seen in his niece.

=============================

From: [email hidden] (Robert Grumbine)
Newsgroups: rec.running
Subject: Running babies
Date: 12 Sep 2000 12:11:56 -0400

One of Oz's themes is that part of our bad form, in running as adults,
might be traced to too many falls and fear from childhood. The early
form being the more proper -- leaning forward from the ankles, falling
and catching oneself gracefully.

I recently saw a picture of my 18 month old neice, taken when she was
running around. It is almost dead on the form of the elites caught at
a similar angle. Definitely leaning forward from the ankles. She
hasn't had a chance to learn to fear falling. Fearless, active child,
running in good form already. Just have to keep the good habits!

--
Robert Grumbine

====================================

A few weeks later this article was written:

How To Run Lightly And Quickly Over Terra Firma

The balls of your feet may be sore from being slapped. If you are landing on
the back of the heel of the shoe it can cause a trigger effect that slaps
the ball of your feet down...the faster you run the faster and harder the
slap of the ball of the foot against the ground. In this article you may be
able to find some folklore to help run lightly, quickly and quietly.

How To Run Lightly And Quickly Over Terra Firma
by Austin Gontang,
September 26, 2000

Running Quietly & Lightly Over Terra Firma: A Response to Jessica's SLAP
SLAP
c. 2000 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D.

Those of you who were avid fans of Kung Fu remember David Carridine as a
young Shaolin monk having to walk across the rice paper without tearing it.
When he could do that then he would be able to leave the monastery, as he
would have learned the lessons he needed.

Those of you who have watched the Discovery Channel and various series on
predators will note that all the predators are very light of foot and their
prey is even lighter of foot. Even watching the charging of a bull elephant
one realizes that the elephant for all its weight runs lightly over the
terrain upon which it charges the camera. Rhino, water buffalo, horses,
lions, cheetahs, Olympic 5K and 10K runners move over the surface of the
earth.

What that means in the kineseology of running is that there is very little
vertical displacement (up and down movement) in running. In weight lifting
there is very little if any horizontal displacement (forward or backward
movement). Any movement other than movement in the plane in which you are
moving is detrimental.

Simply put, you are running and you weight 150 pounds. Every step you lift
yourself vertically 1/2 inch more than necessary while running forward. This
would mean that every 24 steps you have lifted yourself 150 foot-pounds.
That is, you have lifted your 150 pounds one foot and gotten no energy
benefit in the direction in which you want to move. Along the horizontal.
You've just lifted yourself up one foot and wasted valuable energy. While if
you could get rid of that extra 1/2 inch vertical displacement that energy
could be used or saved in helping you run in the direction you intend. Along
the horizontal

Then add to that a toeing out (\ /) of the each foot 20 degrees which means
a lost of distance on each stride to the tune of:

Size 9 loses 18 yards per mile or 471.6 yards lost/ marathon
Size 10 loses 20 yards per mile or 524.0 yards lost/ marathon
Size 11 loses 22 yards per mile or 576.4 yards lost/ marathon
Size 12 loses 24 yards per mile or 628.8 yards lost/ marathon

The slap of most runners' feet is due to the overstride. This means the
planted foot is landing in front of the runner's center of gravity. The slap
comes when the foot strike hits so that the runner lands on the back of the
heel "of the shoe." It creates what is similar to the snap bar of a mouse
trap. It effects the front of the foot as it slaps down on its unaware
victim...the earth's surface. The only problem is that the helpless
victim-the earth-sends the shockwaves back up the foot as the leg compresses
and is jarred as it hits the unforgiving earth.

Again from the martial arts Bruce Lee's inch punch can hit a tissue in front
of a vase or a piece of tile with the tissue just touching either. With the
punch the vase or tile shatters and the tissue remain untorn. Bruce or the
martial artist's fist hits the surface of the tissue with such force but
stops at the surface of the tissue touching the object.

The runner with good form and style touches the surface of the earth but
does not allow the entire weight of the body to collapse upon the foot. The
center of gravity is already over the foot as it lands. When the ball/heel
or midsole plant takes place the foot touches down for however short the
millisecond. The difference is that the bottom of the foot neither slides
back nor slides forward and is the point from which the body is launched
forward. As soon as the launch of the upper body takes place from that
unmoved spot, the momentum of the lead leg and body going forward pulls the
plant foot off the ground.

Two techniques I've used to teach the quick touch down of the foot without
allowing the full weight of the body to follow the vertical displacement:

1. Imagine you're running on a hot grill, yelling "Ah, Ah, Ah, Ah with each
step. You're so interested in not getting burned, you don't think about
putting your feet down...gravity does that. You are worried about picking
them up as quickly as possible to keep them from getting burned on the
grill.... or Tucson summer hot pavement.

2. Stand with one knee up and get ready to pop a Styrofoam cup with the foot
of the lifted knee. As your foot goes down to pop the cup, instantly lift up
the leg upon which you've been standing on. If you can lift it up as fast as
the other leg is going down to pop the cup, you will have counterbalanced
the cup popping foot. The foot lands and pops the cup but the leg you were
standing on by going up as rapidly as the cup popping foot was going down
allowed your center of gravity to have minimal movement. You popped the cup
but your foot stopped at the surface of the earth because your center of
gravity had minimal vertical displacement on the cup popping foot.

3. When you see a cyclist coming toward you seated on his/her bicycle, you
notice that the knees and lower leg are going up and down. It is only when
it passes you from the side, do you realize that the foot is scribing
circles as it pedals. Now Tom Miller from Utah had people train for 10K's by
riding on stationary bicycles while standing up. Notice that you can peddle
you stationary bicycle standing up and notice that your body can be held
such that it doesn't go up and down. You may now be getting a little sense
of what I've been teaching so that I can get average runner to become
stealth runners.

They never hit the ground. Their foot touches the ground and the falling
body along the horizontal allows for minimal vertical movement. Therefore no
slapping.

Loud running is unhealthy for the human body and can cause severe damage not
only to the body but the mind and spirit as well.

Running is falling and catching yourself. You can do it clumsily or
gracefully. Go for the grace!

Again for those who want one of the books I've used to make sense out of
what good form and style (e.g. Chapter. 5 The Mechanics of Correct Running
Form. pp. 51-53 )are in running:
Send $20 to Int'l Assoc. Of Marathoners for John Jesse's
"Hidden Causes of Injury, Prevention and Correction
for Running Athletes and Joggers, © 1977
To: IAM-attn Ozzie
2903 29th Street
San Diego, CA 92104-4912

Natalie,

A great book and accompanying DVD is Danny Dreyer's ChiRunning: http://www.ChiRunning.com

Great info and wonderfully presented. Wonderful way of explaining why when we run we really don't lift our knees. The knee pendulums back and forward and the foot scribes a circle

As he says, we are landing in an erect standing posture each step.

In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
Mindful Running:
http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp