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NYC Post Mortem

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
10 November 2004
Last activity
11 November 2004
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Jsquared
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  1. I came
    I raced
    I crashed

    My second and last attempt at NYC was a virtual instant replay of last
    year, mile for mile, except that I blew up at a faster pace this year.
    The start went pretty well as I managed to squeeze my way to within 30
    seconds of the line. With a sub 8:00 first mile I was right on schedule
    and by the middle of the downhill mile 2 the crowds were thin enough to
    be able to hold pace and weave through without a lot of excess energy.
    The first warning of the instant replay came by mile 3. The pace was
    pretty easy at 7:10/7:15 and the breathing was easier than my normal
    long run "breath pace" but my singlet was already completely soaked. I
    never missed a single water station and took 2 cups at some of them but
    at close to 7 minute pace how much of that actually makes it into the
    stomach? I hit the half in 1:34:04 which was about a half minute faster
    than the plan but I could tell I was working a bit harder than I should
    have been at that point. I was working on my second salt tablet and 2nd
    gell pack and was taking about 2/3 gatorade to 1/3 water at the
    stations but the climb up Queensboro was deja vu all over again. On 1st
    street I was starting to struggle by mile 18 and right on schedule I
    had to walk about 30 seconds at mile 20. By 21 the pace had dropped to
    a 10 minute run/walk and full lock up came at 22. At this point any
    attempt to jog was met with immediate cramps and I resigned myself to a
    4 mile walk. By drinking all I could at the next 2 water stations I got
    enough back in me to do some jogging in the last mile but not enough to
    stave off a personal worst of 3:54.
    So in 5 attempts at this distance I've only managed 1 good race and the
    thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is that it was 35 degrees at
    the start of that race and I finished up with my 2 fastest miles at 25
    & 26.
    This leaves me with 3 potential problems for NYC.
    Pace: Comparing NYC to my last 22 mile training run where it was warmer
    and much more humid, I ran the first 20 at about 7:25 pace, hit the
    onset of dehydration, and jogged a couple of 9:30s at the end. That
    pace on that day was harder by a factor of 2 to maintain than the first
    15/16 miles in NYC. My breathing was much harder start to finish and I
    could tell I was really pushing the legs much harder than I was in NY.
    Hills: In the last 6 months of training the only run where I went
    through more than 2 feet of elevation change was a 10 mile race the
    week before NYC where I crossed an overpass 4 times.
    Dehydration: Every training run beyond 12 miles is an exercise in water
    management. I typically drop from .5 to .75 lbs per mile on my training
    runs. At somewhere in the mid 60's the usage will drop below .5 and in
    cold weather can get down to around .3 lbs/mile. I can typically stand
    about a 5 lb net loss before everything disintigrates.
    So the most likely scenerio is instead of having filled 20 oz bottles
    that I can suck down to the last drop on my training runs, the few oz
    per cup I was getting at the water stations weren't enough to stay in
    front of the dehydration curve.

    JJ

  2. << I came
    I raced
    I crashed >>

    good.

    _______
    Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
    <A
    HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo">http://journal
    s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A>

  3. Jsquared said:

    So the most likely scenerio is instead of having filled 20 oz bottles
    that I can suck down to the last drop on my training runs, the few oz
    per cup I was getting at the water stations weren't enough to stay in
    front of the dehydration curve.

    IMO you've really got to work harder on hydration. Slow down at the stops
    so you can get all the water in (instead of spilling it), and don't throw away
    the cup until it's empty. It's hard near the end of the race, but you should be
    able to do it at the start of the race. Hell, stop for a 10 second walk/drink
    break every second stop if you have to. If it saves you from a crash, you're
    going to get that time back.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  4. << Slow down at the stops
    so you can get all the water in (instead of spilling it), and don't throw away
    the cup until it's empty. It's hard near the end of the race, but you should be
    able to do it at the start of the race. Hell, stop for a 10 second walk/drink
    break every second stop if you have to. If it saves you from a crash, you're
    going to get that time back.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi >>

    Hell, yeah,
    It's just a dance
    Step, steppin'
    Back, round
    This arch-
    Chi-
    Tec-
    Tural
    Setback ~
    Drink up!
    Hell, yeah,
    Mama's Hot!
    Come hither ~
    Slither
    Here...
    I hear ya.

    [Hey!]

    _______
    Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
    <A
    HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo">http://journal
    s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A>

  5. Jsquared wrote in message ...

    Quoted message said:

    I came
    I raced
    I crashed

    My second and last attempt at NYC was a virtual instant replay of last
    year, mile for mile, except that I blew up at a faster pace this year.
    The start went pretty well as I managed to squeeze my way to within 30
    seconds of the line. With a sub 8:00 first mile I was right on schedule
    and by the middle of the downhill mile 2 the crowds were thin enough to
    be able to hold pace and weave through without a lot of excess energy.
    The first warning of the instant replay came by mile 3. The pace was
    pretty easy at 7:10/7:15 and the breathing was easier than my normal
    long run "breath pace" but my singlet was already completely soaked. I
    never missed a single water station and took 2 cups at some of them but
    at close to 7 minute pace how much of that actually makes it into the
    stomach? I hit the half in 1:34:04 which was about a half minute faster
    than the plan but I could tell I was working a bit harder than I should
    have been at that point. I was working on my second salt tablet and 2nd
    gell pack and was taking about 2/3 gatorade to 1/3 water at the
    stations but the climb up Queensboro was deja vu all over again. On 1st
    street I was starting to struggle by mile 18 and right on schedule I
    had to walk about 30 seconds at mile 20. By 21 the pace had dropped to
    a 10 minute run/walk and full lock up came at 22. At this point any
    attempt to jog was met with immediate cramps and I resigned myself to a
    4 mile walk. By drinking all I could at the next 2 water stations I got
    enough back in me to do some jogging in the last mile but not enough to
    stave off a personal worst of 3:54.
    So in 5 attempts at this distance I've only managed 1 good race and the
    thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is that it was 35 degrees at
    the start of that race and I finished up with my 2 fastest miles at 25
    & 26.

    I run best at under 50 degrees, and 40 with no wind is ideal.

    Quoted message said:

    This leaves me with 3 potential problems for NYC.
    Pace: Comparing NYC to my last 22 mile training run where it was warmer
    and much more humid, I ran the first 20 at about 7:25 pace, hit the
    onset of dehydration, and jogged a couple of 9:30s at the end. That
    pace on that day was harder by a factor of 2 to maintain than the first
    15/16 miles in NYC. My breathing was much harder start to finish and I
    could tell I was really pushing the legs much harder than I was in NY.

    Seems to me that you trained too hard. Training runs should be far easier
    than race effort.

    Quoted message said:

    Hills: In the last 6 months of training the only run where I went
    through more than 2 feet of elevation change was a 10 mile race the
    week before NYC where I crossed an overpass 4 times.
    Dehydration: Every training run beyond 12 miles is an exercise in water
    management. I typically drop from .5 to .75 lbs per mile on my training
    runs. At somewhere in the mid 60's the usage will drop below .5 and in
    cold weather can get down to around .3 lbs/mile. I can typically stand
    about a 5 lb net loss before everything disintigrates.
    So the most likely scenerio is instead of having filled 20 oz bottles
    that I can suck down to the last drop on my training runs, the few oz
    per cup I was getting at the water stations weren't enough to stay in
    front of the dehydration curve.

    If you have hydration issues, it's probably worth it to hand-carry a bottle
    even in the marathon. When you see the aid station coming, unscrew the top
    ahead of time, then stop, fill it and screw the top on again so you don't
    lose any. The payback for taking those few seconds stopped will be big. If
    you don't want to stop often, use a camelback, then refill it when it's
    empty.

    -Tony

    Quoted message said:


    JJ

  6. Donovan Rebbechi said:

    IMO you've really got to work harder on hydration. Slow down at the stops
    so you can get all the water in (instead of spilling it), and don't throw away
    the cup until it's empty. It's hard near the end of the race, but you should be
    able to do it at the start of the race. Hell, stop for a 10 second walk/drink
    break every second stop if you have to. If it saves you from a crash, you're
    going to get that time back.

    I'm even thinking about one of those belts that hold a water bottle.
    Even stopping every 3-4 miles to fill it completely shouldn't cost me
    more than 25/30 seconds a stop. Starting out with a full bottle and
    doing this along with the normal sample cups could possibly double my
    intake which should be enough in conditions like NY. It's got to beat
    the 1:26:10 it took me to finish the final 10K.

    JJ

  7. Tony said:

    Seems to me that you trained too hard. Training runs should be far easier
    than race effort.

    I've experimented with training pace over the last couple of years and
    found that I recover much faster by running the fastest pace that the
    conditions will allow for the distance I plan on running. As long as I
    am able to close out my last two hard miles faster than average pace,
    two days of recovery is all it takes before I can run hard again. If I
    blow it and am struggling with 3-4 miles to go it takes a couple extra
    days to recover. I've done a few runs where I purposely went out at 8
    minute or more pace because of conditions and blew up as early as 12-13
    miles. I look at recovery time as the best guage of how I need to adjust
    my daily training runs.

    Quoted message said:

    If you have hydration issues, it's probably worth it to hand-carry a bottle
    even in the marathon. When you see the aid station coming, unscrew the top
    ahead of time, then stop, fill it and screw the top on again so you don't
    lose any. The payback for taking those few seconds stopped will be big. If
    you don't want to stop often, use a camelback, then refill it when it's
    empty.

    I'm seriously considering the bottle option.

    JJ

  8. In article <[email hidden]>, Jsquared <[email hidden]>
    writes

    Quoted message said:

    I came
    I raced
    I crashed


    <snip>

    I'm sorry to hear that - it sounds like you're being hard on yourself
    over it, too. Seems like you trained well and paced yourself well, the
    only thing between you and a marathon you'd be proud of is a really
    smart hydration strategy. Good luck for your next marathon.
    --
    Mel Rimmer

  9. Mel Rimmer said:

    I'm sorry to hear that - it sounds like you're being hard on yourself
    over it, too.

    Not really. I never had any other plans than to race NYC and I fully
    realized the high probability of another blow up on this course. Every
    thing about this race conspires against running a best possible time and
    NYC is a great race to do once or twice but for any future forays into
    the lunacy of 26.2 I'm going to stick to smaller races. People run for
    100 different reasons but for nearly 20 years the main thing that keeps
    me beating myself up on training runs is that I love to race. Win, lose,
    or draw and I've had plenty of all 3. This particular one just happened
    to go in the lose column.

    Seems like you trained well and paced yourself well, the

    Quoted message said:

    only thing between you and a marathon you'd be proud of is a really
    smart hydration strategy. Good luck for your next marathon.

    With my current 20% success rate at this distance that part of it will
    need a serious overhaul.

    JJ

  10. Jsquared said:

    With my current 20% success rate at this distance that part of it will
    need a serious overhaul.

    Godo luck with it. This is the sort of thing that requires a fair bit of
    experimentation -- obviously you're going to be hesitant to carry around a
    heavy water bottle, or to come to a complete halt at a water stop, or whatever.
    After all, that costs time, so it doesn't make sense to to it until you're
    convinced that you need to. I suppose you're probably convinced now.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  11. Donovan Rebbechi said:

    Godo luck with it. This is the sort of thing that requires a fair bit of
    experimentation -- obviously you're going to be hesitant to carry around a
    heavy water bottle, or to come to a complete halt at a water stop, or whatever.
    After all, that costs time, so it doesn't make sense to to it until you're
    convinced that you need to. I suppose you're probably convinced now.

    Yea, unless I catch another one of those 35 degree days.

    JJ

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