Titanium

RE/

Quoted message said:

Who has a ride made with this wonder metal ? I intend it to be my next ride
( 50 cm + - & compact geometry as I prefer a low standover height) I'd love
to hear recommendations of brands models etc form anyone who has currently
or previously owned a Ti bike. TIA

I've got a Seven Duo.

I need a titanium frame like I need another hole in the head - and if my wife
ever finds out I spent enough on a freaking *bicycle frame* to feed an entire
Somalian village for a month, she'll probably have me committed.

But I'm also too long in the wrong places for a proper fit on a production bike
and it seemed like just a matter of time before I'd lose in the little game I
was playing with spacer stack and bar rise on my Ellsworth....and it's like size
15 shoes: you just can't get 'em at Kmart.... At the time, Seven seemed like the
only game in town for a custom FS...and they only did titanium.

I'm happy with what Seven made for me. At first I was more than a little
irritated with them for sticking to their design despite my input. In the end
they saved me from myself.

Only caution I'd offer is strictly hearsay: I've heard that titanium must be
welded in some sort of special gas envelope...and that people have gotten
titanium frames made in (Russia, I think...) that looked great upon receipt, but
whose welds went bad within a year - something about the maker welding them
without the gas envelope.
--
PeteCresswell

(Pete Cresswell) said:

RE/

Quoted message said:

Who has a ride made with this wonder metal ? I intend it to be my next ride
( 50 cm + - & compact geometry as I prefer a low standover height) I'd love
to hear recommendations of brands models etc form anyone who has currently
or previously owned a Ti bike. TIA

I've got a Seven Duo.

I need a titanium frame like I need another hole in the head - and if my wife
ever finds out I spent enough on a freaking *bicycle frame* to feed an entire
Somalian village for a month, she'll probably have me committed.

But I'm also too long in the wrong places for a proper fit on a production bike
and it seemed like just a matter of time before I'd lose in the little game I
was playing with spacer stack and bar rise on my Ellsworth....and it's like size
15 shoes: you just can't get 'em at Kmart.... At the time, Seven seemed like the
only game in town for a custom FS...and they only did titanium.

I'm happy with what Seven made for me. At first I was more than a little
irritated with them for sticking to their design despite my input. In the end
they saved me from myself.

Only caution I'd offer is strictly hearsay: I've heard that titanium must be
welded in some sort of special gas envelope...and that people have gotten
titanium frames made in (Russia, I think...) that looked great upon receipt, but
whose welds went bad within a year - something about the maker welding them
without the gas envelope.

the "gas envelope" is absolutely crucial. it's not unknown for a
manufacturer to neglect the importance of having the shielding gas
running through the inside of the tubes being joined as well as the gas
coming from the welding torch. i doubt the broken frame came from
russia - they've been using that material in significant quantities for
a long time. while q.c. on some of their exports is bad, they should
know what they're doing.

to inspect a tig welded ti frame, look inside the bb & head tube & see
if you notice coloration in the heat effected zone - these are areas not
usualy brushed clean like the tube exteriors. colors like yellow & red
are kinda ok. others like blue or even black indicate excess oxygen in
the weld. oxygen makes ti brittle - it's its achilles heel.

"what ever" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Who has a ride made with this wonder metal ? I intend it to be my next
ride
( 50 cm + - & compact geometry as I prefer a low standover height) I'd
love
to hear recommendations of brands models etc form anyone who has
currently
or previously owned a Ti bike. TIA

I went to Ti in '03. It's a Lemond Victoire, butted Ti. Probably not any
lighter then what it replaced, a '96 Klein Quantum, but then again it's a
size larger (56 vs. a 54) so who knows. It also gained a Brooks saddle,
but comfort at this point is paramount, not lightweight.

It's a better fit then the Klein, which was too small. Rides nice, but not
a huge difference, but as one replaced the other, direct comparison is hard
to come by. There's seemingly something about the Lemond geometry as the Ti
feels faster as a road bike. The Klein was a better fit though, with a
clip-on aero bar, the shorter TT the reason. The Klein accelerated faster,
stiffer B-bracket as well. The Lemond gave me fits for a year with rub on
the F derailleur from b-bracket/crank flex (who knows). I finally switched
to Ergo to gain some additional trim on the F derailleur to get rid of the
rub. Never had flex induced rub on the Klein. I'm a heavy rider (over 210)
so the Klein was a better choice probably, but the Lemond was a steal as a
factory replacement for a broken seat post clamp area on the Klein, probably
never would have gone to Ti otherwise.

All in all, I'm happy with the bike, now that it's dialed in. Can't see the
point in compact though, even though that's what the Victoire now comes in.
The Klein I wanted was also compact, hated the look, marketing gimmick all
the way. Went classic Ti instead.

Still, doesn't feel a whole lot different then my 22 lbs, lugged steel
Heron.

SB

what ever said:

Who has a ride made with this wonder metal ? I intend it to be my
next ride ( 50 cm + - & compact geometry as I prefer a low standover
height) I'd love to hear recommendations of brands models etc form
anyone who has currently or previously owned a Ti bike. TIA

There's nothing special about the way it rides, but it's nice to not have to
worry about your paint getting scratched. Ti frames are also generally more
dent resistant than lightweight steel or aluminum of the same weight. So you
don't have to worry as much about locking your bike in a public rack, subjecting
it to baggage handler thuggery, or having it thrown in a box van with 30 others
at the end of an organized ride.

Matt O.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

Who has a ride made with this wonder metal ? I intend it to be my next ride
( 50 cm + - & compact geometry as I prefer a low standover height) I'd love
to hear recommendations of brands models etc form anyone who has currently
or previously owned a Ti bike. TIA

I have one. No big deal. It is a litespeed. If I was going to buy another, I
would look at Habanero. The price is right. Fit and the parts you hang off
of it are more important.
--------------
Alex

"what ever" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Who has a ride made with this wonder metal ? I intend it to be my next
ride
( 50 cm + - & compact geometry as I prefer a low standover height) I'd
love
to hear recommendations of brands models etc form anyone who has
currently
or previously owned a Ti bike. TIA

I've got one. A Cramerotti. It's nice. But so are my other 5 or so road
bikes which includes a 1972 Gitane, a 1986 Pinarello and a built-up $100 Alu
frame I bought from Nashbar. Swapping over wheels and saddle between these
and then riding - I cannot tell the difference. They sound different and
the Ti bike is definitely light, but unless you are an elite-class racer,
they are functionally the same.

BTW: don't go for a compact frame unless it fits you exactly. Don't let
anyone railroad you into buying a mis-fitting bike that needs a 140mm or
80mm stem because they only make 3 frame sizes, or that's all the shop has
in stock.

Also, I've ridden in packs with riders on compacts. These bikes can have a
foot of seatpost sticking out of the frame. Watching that seatpost flex
back and forth impresses and scares me. Think of those flex cycles as
countdown towards an emergency trip to a proctologist.

I bought the Cramerotti because it was NOT a compact frame. It gives me 3cm
of standover. Good enough.

what ever said:

Who has a ride made with this wonder metal ? I intend it to be my next ride
( 50 cm + - & compact geometry as I prefer a low standover height) I'd love
to hear recommendations of brands models etc form anyone who has currently
or previously owned a Ti bike. TIA

I got a ti Habanero, from Mark Hickey (who often participates here, and
now that our election is over maybe he and I will agree more....). I got
it because my previous frame (aluminum) broke.

I have been completely satisfied with my Habanero. While I am very
skeptical of the magic properties claimed for various frames, it did seem
that I could climb better with my new frame than with the old --- and all
the components were the same, only the frame was changed. Some of that is
new-toy thrill, but maybe some of it is the geometry, and some was the
stiffness. At any rate, it fit perfectly (though that is not hard for me;
I take a fairly standard 56cm size), and has held up fine so far. It was
also very nicely prepped; the headtube and bottom bracket arrived already
faced and ready for assembly, which is not the case all the time. The
finish, brushed, still looks as good as new, or would if I ever cleaned it
up. My only complaint is that the decals aren't all that durable. Big
deal.

Best thing is that it was cheap. Well made, and cheap. Welded in China,
but the welds are as nice as any Seven or Litespeed. The tubes are not
butted, but that is a big investment in terms of $/gram. It is the same
3/2.5 Al/V alloy that most builders use, not the inferior "commercially
pure" ti that some cheap frames are made of.

Mark uses standard geometry, not compact, but you can get a custom frame
for a few dollars more. His frames start at $695.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The common
_`\(,_ | welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and
(_)/ (_) | benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade
were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my
<business!" --Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"

I have a custom Habanero. Sloping top tube to raise the head tube. Seat tube
comes out about 8 - 10". Fits great, rides great. Would I do it again -
definitely.
B

(remove clothes to reply)

what ever said:

Who has a ride made with this wonder metal ? I intend it to be my next ride
( 50 cm + - & compact geometry as I prefer a low standover height) I'd love
to hear recommendations of brands models etc form anyone who has currently
or previously owned a Ti bike. TIA

If you want to get a frame and build it up, there are frames made by
Titanium Sports Technology (TST) that are being closed out. These
are currently selling from about $530 - $560. TST makes frames for
other bike companies. The frames have no decals, and most have a
brushed finish, and 1" non-integrated head tube. I think the only
sizes left are 54 and 56.

I've owned one for a couple of years. It's beautifully welded, about
typical weight for a Ti frame, at 3.3 lb. I like the absence of any
paint to chip, and for these frames, the absence of gaudy decals and
stickers. Mine would have been a Mongoose Pro, had they stayed in
the quality road bike market. The frames are US made, not that that
is necessarily better. Don't expect anything magic from Ti, just a
good durable, easy-to-maintain bike, with adequate stiffness and
fairly light weight.

Dave Lehnen

"what ever" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Who has a ride made with this wonder metal ? I intend it to be my next

ride

Quoted message said:

( 50 cm + - & compact geometry as I prefer a low standover height) I'd

love

Quoted message said:

to hear recommendations of brands models etc form anyone who has

currently

Quoted message said:

or previously owned a Ti bike. TIA

I have three cheap chinese titanium frames.(Non-Habanaro)

http://www.geo.net.au/~mart/personal/martys_bikes.htm

My ti mountain bike has copped a lot of use/abuse over the last two or three
years and is still going strong.

Marty

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Who has a ride made with this wonder metal ? I intend it to be my next ride
( 50 cm + - & compact geometry as I prefer a low standover height) I'd love
to hear recommendations of brands models etc form anyone who has currently
or previously owned a Ti bike. TIA

I currently have two road bikes -- a compact Ti frame (Airborne
Valkyrie) and a 33-year old conventional Reynolds 531 double-butted old-
timer which I have refinished and modded for 9-speed. (I previously
owned 2 other good road bikes, one steel and one Al.)

The compact Airborne fits me well, as does the Reynolds frame, but
having a long torso/short legs, I prefer the standover clearance of the
Ti frame, but I like the looks of the conventional frame better.

Both bikes are a joy to ride, but the Ti frame is noticeably stiffer in
torsion and feels very light. On the road, I don't notice a difference
in ride quality nor in the 4 lb. weight advantage of the Ti bike. I DO
notice the weight differential when carrying the bike up and down the
basement stairs.

The Airborne frame has smooth, high quality welds and it is perfectly
aligned. I have compared it side-by-side with a Seven, and while it
doesn't have the same high-lustre finish, I think the media-blasted
finish on my frame shows fewer marks and scratches.

Rick

Dave Mayer said:

Also, I've ridden in packs with riders on compacts. These bikes can
have a foot of seatpost sticking out of the frame. Watching that
seatpost flex back and forth impresses and scares me. Think of those
flex cycles as countdown towards an emergency trip to a proctologist.

I think a lot of that flexing you see is an optical illusion, like the wobbly
spoon trick. (Hold a spoon loosely between your thumb and forefinger and wobble
it, and it looks like it's made of rubber.)

I've had people swear they could see various frames flexing, and absorbing
bumps. I've heard people say they could tell the difference between a Tange
Prestige frame and a True Temper AVR by observing frame flex while riding next
to someone.

I have over a foot of seatpost showing on my MTB. If it flexed visibly, I'm
sure it would break from fatigue. We don't hear of this happening much, and
MTBs have all had slopey top tubes for 15 years.

Matt O.

Java Man said:

Both bikes are a joy to ride, but the Ti frame is noticeably stiffer
in torsion and feels very light. On the road, I don't notice a
difference in ride quality nor in the 4 lb. weight advantage of the
Ti bike. I DO notice the weight differential when carrying the bike
up and down the basement stairs.

A 4 LB difference definately doesn't come from the frame, though -- it has to be
from the other bits. 4 OZ is a more likely weight difference between an 853
steel frame and a Ti one.

Matt O.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Java Man said:

Both bikes are a joy to ride, but the Ti frame is noticeably stiffer
in torsion and feels very light. On the road, I don't notice a
difference in ride quality nor in the 4 lb. weight advantage of the
Ti bike. I DO notice the weight differential when carrying the bike
up and down the basement stairs.

A 4 LB difference definately doesn't come from the frame, though -- it has to be
from the other bits. 4 OZ is a more likely weight difference between an 853
steel frame and a Ti one.

Agree. The Ti frame and carbon fork weigh ~ 2 lb. less than the
Reynolds 531 I referenced. The remaining 2 lb. difference is in
different wheels, tires and components.

Rick

Thanks to you all for your input .

what

"what ever" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Who has a ride made with this wonder metal ? I intend it to be my next

ride

Quoted message said:

( 50 cm + - & compact geometry as I prefer a low standover height) I'd

love

Quoted message said:

to hear recommendations of brands models etc form anyone who has

currently

Quoted message said:

or previously owned a Ti bike. TIA

Matt O'Toole said:

Dave Mayer said:

Also, I've ridden in packs with riders on compacts. These bikes can
have a foot of seatpost sticking out of the frame. Watching that
seatpost flex back and forth impresses and scares me. Think of those
flex cycles as countdown towards an emergency trip to a proctologist.

I think a lot of that flexing you see is an optical illusion, like the wobbly
spoon trick. (Hold a spoon loosely between your thumb and forefinger and wobble
it, and it looks like it's made of rubber.)

I've had people swear they could see various frames flexing, and absorbing
bumps. I've heard people say they could tell the difference between a Tange
Prestige frame and a True Temper AVR by observing frame flex while riding next
to someone.

I have over a foot of seatpost showing on my MTB. If it flexed visibly, I'm
sure it would break from fatigue. We don't hear of this happening much, and
MTBs have all had slopey top tubes for 15 years.

Matt O.

matt, both my road & mtb seat posts flex visibly if i sit full weight.
but i weigh 200 lbs. they do break from fatigue too, but not that often
as they don't have welds at the most stressed point, where it sits in
the frame, unlike the common break points on frames such as head tubes
or bb's. and most people "ride light" so that mitigates the problem
further.

regarding frame flex, it's interesting that you /can/ see differences in
that also. i was surprised one time riding behind two guys on a
steepish hill - both were beside each other, me behind, one on a
litespeed ti, the other on a big tube cannondale. from my vantage
point, you could see the displacement of the bb on the ti frame was
significant - the cannondale hardly at all. when asked if the rider of
the ti bike noticed any flex, he swore it was the stiffest frame he'd
ever ridden and was puzzled by my question.

bottom line, sure, you can measure differences, but it all comes down to
rider taste. someone that's only ever ridden small tube steel may have
no clue about how different a big tube aluminum frame feels, but not
care either. same for the steel fork/carbon fork debate. we all have
different tastes, and that's fine, provided we've actually bothered to
ride the gear in question before forming an opinion.

[email hidden] (B) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I have a custom Habanero. Sloping top tube to raise the head tube. Seat tube
comes out about 8 - 10". Fits great, rides great. Would I do it again -
definitely.
B

(remove clothes to reply)

No it doesn't! The fork blade length + crown height/hs stack height +
head tube length determine the height of the front end of the bike. A
slope only adds a slope, nothing else. In fact I'd say that it only
lowers the seat tube end of the top tube. If a sloping top tube bike
has a higher front end, it's due to one or more or the aforementioned
factors.

Robin Hubert

Let me state it differently. The sloping top tube on my bike allows me to have
a larger head tube than I could with a flat top tube. I wanted a head tube
large enough that very few spacers were used between the top of the head tube
and the stem. The head tube is the correct height for what I want (handlebars
level with saddle). The top tube slopes back. If the it were flat from the
headtube, I could not stand over my bike. I ride a 54 in a flat tt bike. This
bike measures about 52 - 53 at the seat tube, and has a head tube similar to a
56-57 (I think).
B

(remove clothes to reply)