Campy 9 to 8 conversion

"Paul Westall" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What is a reasonable price for a bike shop to charge to rebuild a Campy 9 speed right ergo shifter
to work with an 8 speed system? Are 8 speed shifters still readily available?

$20 in service charges, $30 for an eight speed shift ring, maybe cables and tape, too. Possibly a
set of springs as long as we are in there, $10.
--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

paul-<< What is a reasonable price for a bike shop to charge to rebuild a Campy 9 speed right ergo
shifter to work with an 8 speed system? Are 8 speed shifters still readily available?

We charge $35 for the 8s disc and $25 labor which includes a lever innard cleaning and lube.

Regardless of what some 'web sites' will say, you don't need a rear der, pulleys, or chainrings
either, if all are not worn out.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

$25 plus parts.

Shift disk, $35 G Springs $10.

Paul Westall said:

What is a reasonable price for a bike shop to charge to rebuild a Campy 9 speed right ergo shifter
to work with an 8 speed system? Are 8 speed shifters still readily available? TIA Paul

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Regardless of what some 'web sites' will say, you don't need a rear der, pulleys, or chainrings
either, if all are not worn out.

I tried an 1998 8sp Avanti mech with 2001 9sp Ergos: it indexed but not very well. I've now replaced
mech with a Xenon and shifting is much better with perfect indexing. The derailleur geometry and
amount of cable pull changed in 2001. That's fact, not myth or marketing propaganda.

~PB

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Pete-<< The derailleur geometry and amount of cable pull changed in 2001. That's fact, not myth or
marketing propaganda.

Nope, it is myth and propbably propaganda.

Let's get this clear please. Do 2001 Ergos pull the same amount of cable per click as 2000 Ergos?

~PB

" Pete"-<< The derailleur geometry and amount of cable

Quoted message said:

pull changed in 2001. That's fact, not myth or marketing propaganda.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nope, it is myth and propbably propaganda., I have used 2003 rear

ders(10s!!)

Quoted message said:

with 1992/3 ERGO(8s) and these have worked flawlessly. I have also

installed

Quoted message said:

2003 9 and 10s ERGO onto bicycles with 1994/5 rear ders, sameo, worked perfectly.

The first carbon Record rear der i installed was onto Colby Pearce's 8s ERGO-worked just fine
than you...

Don't believe eveything ya read on the 'net'. We know this stuff works cuz

we

Quoted message said:

have tried it...

" Pete"> << I tried an 1998 8sp Avanti mech with 2001 9sp Ergos: it indexed but not

Quoted message said:

very well.

"Qui. . ."> All the above works with stuff that is not worn, i suspect the rear der was, or

Quoted message said:

else it should have worked.

We also enjoy a high volume of service to better quality bicycles so we have many iterations of
component substitution in our experience. We've done many replacements of levers, derailleurs,
cables, chains and cassettes in all manner of Campagnolo gear trains.

Drawing on that experience, Peter's right.

Campagnolo current derailleurs drop seamlessly into post-1992 Campagnolo systems where there are not
preexisting issues of rusty/bent/broken subassemblies. If your derailleur wasn't shifting well, it
was more likely worn parts within that piece or elsewhere in the system rather than a compatibility
problem per se. You'd be surprised how many rear changers are twenty degress out of vertical, for
example (all brands of equipment) , the rider noting that it's "sluggish" or "worn out" but shifts
crisply once more when aligned and adjusted properly. Markedly worn chain/cassettes also make bikes
feel nearly new when belatedly replaced. That goes double for wires, casing and ferrules

This year, in particular, we've added many of the new 92mm long-cage Campagnolo rears to older Ergo
systems looking for lower gearing without incident.
--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pete-<< The derailleur geometry and amount of cable pull changed in 2001. That's fact, not myth
or marketing propaganda.

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Nope, it is myth and propbably propaganda.

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Let's get this clear please. Do 2001 Ergos pull the same amount of cable per click as 2000 Ergos?

Yes. And all the 1992 through 2003 Ergos, assuming same format ( 8, 9 or Ten)
--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

A Muzi said:

We also enjoy a high volume of service to better quality bicycles so we have many iterations of
component substitution in our experience. We've done many replacements of levers, derailleurs,
cables, chains and cassettes in all manner of Campagnolo gear trains.

Drawing on that experience, Peter's right.

...about the subjective view that mismatches work acceptably.

Quoted message said:

Campagnolo current derailleurs drop seamlessly into post-1992 Campagnolo systems where there are
not preexisting issues of rusty/bent/broken subassemblies. If your derailleur wasn't shifting
well, it was more likely worn parts within that piece or elsewhere in the system rather than a
compatibility problem per se. You'd be surprised how many rear changers are twenty degress out of
vertical, for example (all brands of equipment) , the rider noting that it's "sluggish" or "worn
out" but shifts crisply once more when aligned and adjusted properly.

I tried all kinds of adjustments with the derailleur. It was actually shifting crisply but by the
wrong amount - just enough out to cause some un-natural noise. This was with brand new Mirage Ergos,
chain & cassette in very good condition. All was ok after fitting a new Xenon derailleur and making
no other changes. Perhaps derailleur wear made the problem worse but I'm not convinced that there
wasn't more to it than that.

These things aren't binary. It's not a case of something either working perfectly or working badly.
There's always going to be a certain amount of play or error with any indexing system. I can only
assume I'm being more fussy than others - but I still don't like the idea of adding more error than
you have to.

~PB

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Let's get this clear please. Do 2001 Ergos pull the same amount of cable per click as 2000 Ergos?

Yes. And all the 1992 through 2003 Ergos, assuming same format ( 8, 9 or Ten)

According to the Feb/Mar issue of the CTC's Cycle magazine, that is incorrect. Older 9-speed Campag
systems had a cable ratio of 70% with
3.19mm being pulled per gear. Current 9sp: 67%, 3.05mm.

Also, Campagnolo stated the 2001 components had a "new index mechanism". Surely that would be too
much of a massive blatant lie to get away with. I accept that some people report the difference
doesn't matter in practice, but denying it even exists is something else!

It's easy to get a Campag system working well enough for the chain to shift to and stay in the next
gear when the Ergo lever or button is pushed, but I find even with all-new matched components,
tolerance is tight for acheiving noise-free operation. It doesn't take much error for the chain to
slightly rub an adjacent sprocket.

I don't believe what I experienced was entirely due to derailleur wear. An slight index error was
obvious to me - with the error "moving" to a different part of the cassette when I adjusted the
cable. This is a classic symptom of incorrect index (and cable was anchored correctly).

I'm not certain if the 10-speeds changed as well or not (I think not). If not, then perhaps some
confusion is arrising from this.

~PB

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Pete-<< Let's get this clear please. Do 2001 Ergos pull the same amount of cable per click as
2000 Ergos?

Don't know, never measured them. I DO know that the combos I have mentioned DO work, because I
have done them, on many customer's bicycles. i can run down the various combinations if you like
or Andy Muzi can or any other wrench that has actually tried this stuff, not just read something
and accept it.

"Work" is subjective. You mean they work to your standard.

I didn't "just accept it". I tried using a pre 2001 dereraiileur with new Ergos - because I read
here that it would "work fine". Well, it doesn't work well enough for me. I could have save some
money on shipping if I had bought the mech with the Ergos in the first place.

~PB

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Let's get this clear please. Do 2001 Ergos pull the same amount of cable per click as 2000
Ergos?

Yes. And all the 1992 through 2003 Ergos, assuming same format ( 8, 9 or Ten)

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

According to the Feb/Mar issue of the CTC's Cycle magazine, that is incorrect. Older 9-speed
Campag systems had a cable ratio of 70% with
3.19mm being pulled per gear. Current 9sp: 67%, 3.05mm.

Also, Campagnolo stated the 2001 components had a "new index mechanism". Surely that would be too
much of a massive blatant lie to get away with. I accept that some people report the difference
doesn't matter in practice, but denying it even exists is something else!

It's easy to get a Campag system working well enough for the chain to shift to and stay in the
next gear when the Ergo lever or button is pushed, but I find even with all-new matched
components, tolerance is tight for acheiving noise-free operation. It doesn't take much error for
the chain to slightly rub an adjacent sprocket.

I don't believe what I experienced was entirely due to derailleur wear. An slight index error was
obvious to me - with the error "moving" to a different part of the cassette when I adjusted the
cable. This is a classic symptom of incorrect index (and cable was anchored correctly).

I'm not certain if the 10-speeds changed as well or not (I think not). If not, then perhaps some
confusion is arrising from this.

Yes, that's the spec but as Peter also notes, such a small variance is lost in the noise of a gear
system. In our experience this isn't a compromise. There's 0.14mm but 0.14mm in a gear system is
hard to notice.

--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

A Muzi said:

Yes, that's the spec but as Peter also notes, such a small variance is lost in the noise of a gear
system. In our experience this isn't a compromise. There's 0.14mm but 0.14mm in a gear system is
hard to notice.

Yeah, but in a 9 speed the error is at absolute minimum 4 times .14 mm, equals .56 mm, at both
ends of the cassette, when it's set properly for the middle one. Still, though, half a mm seems
like not so much.

Jasper

I did a little math just to figure out what the alignment error would be at the jockey wheels.

Basically what you end up with is a error of 1.8mm or .070 inches. This is the equivalent of width
of a sprocket on a 9sp cassette. If you tune the system to the fifth gear in the center of the
cassette, then you have half the error on either end. I can understand how the functionality could
be questioned.

This is also about the same amount of error that is created when you mix a campy system with a
shimano wheel on a 9sp system.

Jay

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

> Let's get this clear please. Do 2001 Ergos pull the same amount of cable per click as 2000
> Ergos?

Yes. And all the 1992 through 2003 Ergos, assuming same format ( 8, 9 or Ten)

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

According to the Feb/Mar issue of the CTC's Cycle magazine, that is incorrect. Older 9-speed
Campag systems had a cable ratio of 70% with
3.19mm being pulled per gear. Current 9sp: 67%, 3.05mm.

Also, Campagnolo stated the 2001 components had a "new index mechanism". Surely that would be
too much of a massive blatant lie to get away with. I accept that some people report the
difference doesn't matter in practice, but denying it even exists is something else!

It's easy to get a Campag system working well enough for the chain to shift to and stay in the
next gear when the Ergo lever or button is pushed, but I find even with all-new matched
components, tolerance is tight for acheiving noise-free operation. It doesn't take much error

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the chain to slightly rub an adjacent sprocket.

I don't believe what I experienced was entirely due to derailleur wear. An slight index error
was obvious to me - with the error "moving" to a different part of the cassette when I adjusted
the cable. This is a classic symptom of incorrect index (and cable was anchored correctly).

I'm not certain if the 10-speeds changed as well or not (I think not).

If

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not, then perhaps some confusion is arrising from this.

Yes, that's the spec but as Peter also notes, such a small variance is

lost

Quoted message said:

in the noise of a gear system. In our experience this isn't a

compromise.

Quoted message said:

There's 0.14mm but 0.14mm in a gear system is hard to notice.

--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

Here's an interesting point,

According to a recent post, cable pull for old Campy 9 speed levers is
3.19mm per indent, while that for new levers is 3.05mm per indent.

Now according to Sheldons website, the sprocket separation is 4.55mm for Campy 9 speed, and 4.34mm
for Shimano 9 speed.

So given all these numbers, I couldn't help multiplying things out to see what happens.

If you use old levers with a new derailleur, you end up with 4.75mm per indent at the cassette.
Tolerable I guess for use with Campy cassettes, but I imagine it would really suck if you tried to
use a friends Shimano wheel.

Now the neat bit happens when you mix new levers and old derailleurs. Here we get 4.36mm per indent,
which is within a gnats whisker of Shimano spacing. So your campy wheels run so-so, but Shimano ones
index perfectly. Indeed, ones Campy wheel could be made to run quite well by putting in the
occasional 10 speed or shimano 9 speed spacer, rather than the Campy 9 speed spacer. A cassette made
up of loose cog Campy 9 sprockets with Shimano spacers comes out pretty darned close, at 4.31mm.

Interesting stuff.

Regards,

Suzy

--
---
Suzy Jackson [email hidden] suzyj.netsuzyj.netOpen ↗