Stock vs. custom frame

Custom Klein Q Pro with extended top tube (about 2 cm longer).

I ride a Principia RSL Stock Frame. If most Pros ride Stock Frames, it should be ok for everybody else. There are very few exeptions where people really need a Custom Frame.

fixit said:

I ride a Principia RSL Stock Frame. If most Pros ride Stock Frames, it should be ok for everybody else. There are very few exeptions where people really need a Custom Frame.

If all things were equal wouldn't you rather have a custom tailored suit rather than one off the rack? Why should it not be the same for bike frames? The only reason that alot of the pros aren't riding custom frames is because the tooling would cost too much to make more than 3 sizes of these made in China/Tawain POCs.

SDL

SDL said:

If all things were equal wouldn't you rather have a custom tailored suit rather than one off the rack? Why should it not be the same for bike frames? The only reason that alot of the pros aren't riding custom frames is because the tooling would cost too much to make more than 3 sizes of these made in China/Tawain POCs.

SDL

Of course it's nice to have a custom frame, but for a proper fit most People just don't need it. Things like Cockpitspace are far more important.
Your statement that the tooling would cost too much and that this is the only reason why most Pros don't have Custom Frames is just false. Money is not the only reason why Pros have Stock Frames. The People at Cervelo for example say 'it's a bit of a hoax' to make Custom Frames (http://www.cervelo.com/tech/qa/Q-A144.html) and nobody, not you, not me, not even Team CSC get Custom Frames from them. I have alot of respect for the Cervelopeople, because I know their Products reasonably well and I can tell you these People think with their Brain, not with their Wallet. Their TT/Tri Bikes P3 and P2K come only in four sizes (700c), the P2T only in three.
It's the same with Cars, who really NEEDS a Porsche? Nobody, but it's nice they are available. Don't be misguided by the phukking Marketing [censored].

SDL said:

The only reason that alot of the pros aren't riding custom frames is because the tooling would cost too much to make more than 3 sizes of these made in China/Tawain POCs.

SDL

Is that just ignorance or elitist stick in the azz talk?

SDL said:

If all things were equal wouldn't you rather have a custom tailored suit rather than one off the rack? Why should it not be the same for bike frames? The only reason that alot of the pros aren't riding custom frames is because the tooling would cost too much to make more than 3 sizes of these made in China/Tawain POCs.

SDL

No, I'd rather have a bike with proven geometry. Unless your builder really knows what he's doing, messing with the dimensions and angles can produce a poor handling bike. Most custom order bikes are just built to standard dimensions anyway, maybe with a minor tweaking of the top tube.

The reason custom builders built to order is that they can't afford to build up inventory of different framesets and sizes just hoping someone will buy the frame before it becomes last year's technology.

I ride a frame from our local builder here which is built to "standard geometry". He makes them in four sloping-top sizes, 52 through 58. The 58 had exactly the top tube dimension I wanted, and it fits perfectly. He could have sold me a "custom fitting" for around $200 more, but agreed there wasn't any point to that as his italian road-race geometry is what I wanted.

Tooling isn't an issue for frames built from tubesets, since they all have to be trimmed to size whether they are standard geometry or "custom". If pro's want a certain dimension on their frame, I'm sure they get it. It's simple for the frame builder to modify a top tube length or seat tube angle slightly when he's cutting the tubes.

Tooling is an issue if we are talking monocoque CF.

Notice that before Giant introduced their compact frames most companies offered numerous sizes. At least Giant passed the production savings on to the customers unlike most of the others.

3 sizes = cost savings = fitting compromizes.

Companies such as Pinarello are still offering a full range of sizes in 1cm increments. If you want to [censored] your money away on one good for you. The point is that a custom builder can offer you tubing options sizing options etc. even if you end up with a standard size but it will still cost you less than an Italian production frame.

SDL said:

Tooling is an issue if we are talking monocoque CF.

Notice that before Giant introduced their compact frames most companies offered numerous sizes. At least Giant passed the production savings on to the customers unlike most of the others.

3 sizes = cost savings = fitting compromizes.

Companies such as Pinarello are still offering a full range of sizes in 1cm increments. If you want to [censored] your money away on one good for you. The point is that a custom builder can offer you tubing options sizing options etc. even if you end up with a standard size but it will still cost you less than an Italian production frame.

5 sizes... www.giantbicycle.com A place to start for getting over some ignorance.

boudreaux said:

5 sizes... www.giantbicycle.com A place to start for getting over some ignorance.

The 3 sizes comment was an exaggeration however 5 sizes is not a any better..www.pinarello.com ...13 sizes. Although you seem to be very knowledgable about wrenching related topics I'm amazed at you ignorance when it comes to frame sizing and manufacturing. Unless you are perfectly average your fit on one of the 5 sizes fits all bikes will not fit right. You should also know that stem length affects handling so by using a very short or vely long stem you change the handling characteristics of any given bike. This would not happen on a bike with a choice of top tube lengths.

SDL said:

The 3 sizes comment was an exaggeration however 5 sizes is not a any better..www.pinarello.com ...13 sizes. Although you seem to be very knowledgable about wrenching related topics I'm amazed at you ignorance when it comes to frame sizing and manufacturing.

Not really,I just keep it simple for the simpletons.But saying 5 is no better than 3 is beyond simple.

Owning both a Porsche 911 turbo AND a custom bike... I can tell you that BOTH fill a need. The Porsche fills the need to go from zero to sixty in 3.4 seconds and cruise at 210mph and the custom bike is necessary because I have short legs and a long torso... making conventional bikes uncomfortable for me. Since my bike is a touring bike; I want to be as comfortable as possible.

It is indeed nice to have choices and it really is up to the individual whether or not any particular item is needed.

Joe West

fixit said:

Of course it's nice to have a custom frame, but for a proper fit most People just don't need it. Things like Cockpitspace are far more important.
Your statement that the tooling would cost too much and that this is the only reason why most Pros don't have Custom Frames is just false. Money is not the only reason why Pros have Stock Frames. The People at Cervelo for example say 'it's a bit of a hoax' to make Custom Frames (http://www.cervelo.com/tech/qa/Q-A144.html) and nobody, not you, not me, not even Team CSC get Custom Frames from them. I have alot of respect for the Cervelopeople, because I know their Products reasonably well and I can tell you these People think with their Brain, not with their Wallet. Their TT/Tri Bikes P3 and P2K come only in four sizes (700c), the P2T only in three.
It's the same with Cars, who really NEEDS a Porsche? Nobody, but it's nice they are available. Don't be misguided by the phukking Marketing [censored].

Unless your knuckles drag the ground, most people can take a stock frame and customize the stem length and seat position to bring them very close to what a "fit" system would recommend - in my opinion !

Joe West said:

Owning both a Porsche 911 turbo AND a custom bike... I can tell you that BOTH fill a need. The Porsche fills the need to go from zero to sixty in 3.4 seconds and cruise at 210mph and the custom bike is necessary because I have short legs and a long torso... making conventional bikes uncomfortable for me. Since my bike is a touring bike; I want to be as comfortable as possible.

It is indeed nice to have choices and it really is up to the individual whether or not any particular item is needed.

Joe West

I totally agree with you. If you have the need to drive fast and feel empty or uncomfortable when you can't, then you of course need something like a Porsche. And if you feel uncomfortable on a Stock Frame, you need a Custom Frame.
In this case, when I say need, I mean that there is no other possibility.

Cheers

boudreaux said:

Not really,I just keep it simple for the simpletons.But saying 5 is no better than 3 is beyond simple.

5 is hardly better than 3 if you compare it to 13. Is that simple enough for you?

SDL said:

5 is hardly better than 3 if you compare it to 13. Is that simple enough for you?

But maybe ya don't need 13. If that's the case it's just mental masturbation,like the NEED for a custom is ya don't need it.

boudreaux said:

But maybe ya don't need 13. If that's the case it's just mental masturbation,like the NEED for a custom is ya don't need it.

No, I don't think one person would need 13 sizes! Have you bought a pair of pants lately? Last time I checked there were more than five sizes and you only pay around 60 bucks for them. With the amount people spend on bikes don't you think there should be no compromises?

SDL said:

No, I don't think one person would need 13 sizes! Have you bought a pair of pants lately? Last time I checked there were more than five sizes and you only pay around 60 bucks for them.

Pants aren't bicycles 🙄 ,and I don't pay more than $5 for them at Goodwill. $60 pants are for suckers as are custom frames if you don't need them.

litespeedguy said:

Unless your knuckles drag the ground, most people can take a stock frame and customize....

Herein lies the problem - how do you know that you are an odd shape?
It took over 40 years of life and a fitkit for me to realise that I had short
legs and a long body - it was one of those life realisation things I guess :eek:.

Like all things biomechanical it will not be a yes/no answer. If you are
in the the middle of the curve for the ratio of leg length to body length
(or height) and assuming legs and arms are of equal proportion then
you should have no problem with any manufacturers off the peg frame.
As you approach the extremes of this ratio then you will be adding
setback seatposts and crazy stems to get an off the peg frame to fit.
There comes a stage where the stem is so long and/or you are seated
so far back you would get much better geometry/bike handling with
a custom frame.

Also, each manufacturer's off the peg frames are not the same
geometry, there is around +/- 1 degree in seat tube angle
and +/- 1cm in toptube (virtual) length for any particular seat
tube length.

In my case I was able to find an off the peg Look frame that suited
my body shape - even then I have a 120mm stem on a 53cm frame
which is probably 10mm too long in the stem for perfect body centre
of mass placement - but it is something I am prepared to deal with.

I did some analysis of some data on an earlier thread that gives an
idea of the average leg/height ratio - I'll post this later.

regards
Matthew

Bike fit is naturally an individual thing - but I still contend that most people can come within a couple of percent of the parameters that the "fit" calculators produce given all the body measurements by taking a stock frame and tweaking the stem length and saddle position ( fore/aft and up/down) - and even these calculators produce different results using the very same measurements.

I rode an old Trek "touring" bike for years and decided to go "road" a coupleof years ago. I picked my frame size to buy by using LeMond's formula. When I got the bike I adjusted seat height again using the LeMond formula. Recently I completed my final tweak I think by replacing the 100mm stem with 120mm.

Overall the bike feels great ! I've input the various body measurements into a couple of online "fit" calculators and then checked the output against my bike ; I'm within a centimeter all around.

But as mentioned above, these "fit" calculators produce different results ; so it goes to show that maybe there isn't an absolute perfect fit but instead a "range" where it's deemed to be perfect.

And LeMond and the riders of his era did pretty well I think with the "fit" methods that they used. And finaly, his book mentions an ideal seat tube angle of I think 72 degrees and I'll bet that most "roadys" built today are pretty close to that.