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Cholesterol Myths?

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Published
15 October 2004
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21 October 2004
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  1. http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (author's web site)

    "The Cholesterol Myths : Exposing the Fallacy that Saturated Fat and Cholesterol
    Cause Heart Disease" by Uffe Ravnskov was first published January 1997.

    Quotes:
    1) The only effective way to lower cholesterol (blood levels, just the numbers) is with
    drugs.

    2) The “prudent” diet cannot lower cholesterol more than on average a few per cent.
    Your body produces three to four times more cholesterol than you eat.

    3) Cholesterol-lowering drugs, the statins, do prevent cardio-vascular disease, but this
    is
    due to other mechanisms than cholesterol-lowering.

    4) Cholesterol is not a deadly poison

    5) A high cholesterol is not dangerous by itself, but may reflect an unhealthy condition

    6) There are dangers associated with an consumption of polyunsaturated oils.
    ==========

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  2. at said:

    http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (author's web site)

    "The Cholesterol Myths : Exposing the Fallacy that Saturated Fat and Cholesterol
    Cause Heart Disease" by Uffe Ravnskov was first published January 1997.

    Quotes:
    1) The only effective way to lower cholesterol (blood levels, just the numbers) is with
    drugs.

    2) The “prudent” diet cannot lower cholesterol more than on average a few per cent.
    Your body produces three to four times more cholesterol than you eat.

    3) Cholesterol-lowering drugs, the statins, do prevent cardio-vascular disease, but this
    is
    due to other mechanisms than cholesterol-lowering.

    4) Cholesterol is not a deadly poison

    5) A high cholesterol is not dangerous by itself, but may reflect an unhealthy condition

    6) There are dangers associated with an consumption of polyunsaturated oils.
    ==========

    Ya so whats your question?

    k

  3. No question. Statement: it is becoming evident that cholesterol causes ASCVD to the same
    degree that firemen cause house fires!

    Karstens Rage said:
    at said:

    http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (author's web site)

    "The Cholesterol Myths : Exposing the Fallacy that Saturated Fat and Cholesterol
    Cause Heart Disease" by Uffe Ravnskov was first published January 1997.

    Quotes:
    1) The only effective way to lower cholesterol (blood levels, just the numbers) is with
    drugs.

    2) The “prudent” diet cannot lower cholesterol more than on average a few per cent.
    Your body produces three to four times more cholesterol than you eat.

    3) Cholesterol-lowering drugs, the statins, do prevent cardio-vascular disease, but this
    is
    due to other mechanisms than cholesterol-lowering.

    4) Cholesterol is not a deadly poison

    5) A high cholesterol is not dangerous by itself, but may reflect an unhealthy condition

    6) There are dangers associated with an consumption of polyunsaturated oils.
    ==========

    Ya so whats your question?

    k

    ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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  4. Two other books worthy of note are Thomas Moore's "Heart Failure," and
    "The Cholesterol Conspiracy." The lengths to which certain characters
    involved in this moronic drama are willing to go to fudge facts,
    intimidate scientists who have come to contrary conclusions, etc., is
    amazing. But these authors were not aware of the connection to free
    radical mediated processes, so they were only able to understand the
    issue on a certain level. However, the data over the last decade or
    so, demonstrating that oxysterols are the problem (free radical
    damaged cholesterol) is, at this point, overwhelming, and it clears up
    many of the paradoxes that many investigators have noticed. For
    example, while those on a very high saturated fatty acid diet (coconut
    or palm plants) have just about no "chronic disease, they do have high
    cholesterol levels. Now that we know why (the saturated fatty acids
    do not cause any free radical damage, whereas dietary polyunsaturated
    fatty acids do), all the evidence (epidemiological, biochemical,
    physiological, endocrinological, etc.) falls into place. The bottom
    line: eat pleny of antioxidant-rich foods and avoid foods with more
    than a trace amount of polyunsaturated fatty acids.

    chucks(at)pivot[dott]net wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    No question. Statement: it is becoming evident that cholesterol causes ASCVD to the same
    degree that firemen cause house fires!

    Karstens Rage said:
    at said:

    http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (author's web site)

    "The Cholesterol Myths : Exposing the Fallacy that Saturated Fat and Cholesterol
    Cause Heart Disease" by Uffe Ravnskov was first published January 1997.

    Quotes:
    1) The only effective way to lower cholesterol (blood levels, just the numbers) is with
    drugs.

    2) The ?prudent? diet cannot lower cholesterol more than on average a few per cent.
    Your body produces three to four times more cholesterol than you eat.

    3) Cholesterol-lowering drugs, the statins, do prevent cardio-vascular disease, but this
    is
    due to other mechanisms than cholesterol-lowering.

    4) Cholesterol is not a deadly poison

    5) A high cholesterol is not dangerous by itself, but may reflect an unhealthy condition

    6) There are dangers associated with an consumption of polyunsaturated oils.
    ==========

    Ya so whats your question?

    k

    ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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    ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

  5. <chucks (at) pivot[dott]net> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    No question. Statement: it is becoming evident that cholesterol causes


    ASCVD to the same

    Quoted message said:

    degree that firemen cause house fires!

    You mean the same myth that a blood clot in an artery does not cause heart
    attacks because blood clotting can stop a person from bleeding to death.

    Quoted message said:


    Karstens Rage said:
    at said:

    http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (author's web site)

    "The Cholesterol Myths : Exposing the Fallacy that Saturated Fat and


    Cholesterol

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Cause Heart Disease" by Uffe Ravnskov was first published January 1997.

    Quotes:
    1) The only effective way to lower cholesterol (blood levels, just the


    numbers) is with

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    drugs.

    2) The "prudent" diet cannot lower cholesterol more than on average a


    few per cent.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Your body produces three to four times more cholesterol than you eat.

    3) Cholesterol-lowering drugs, the statins, do prevent cardio-vascular


    disease, but this

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    is
    due to other mechanisms than cholesterol-lowering.

    4) Cholesterol is not a deadly poison

    5) A high cholesterol is not dangerous by itself, but may reflect an


    unhealthy condition

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    6) There are dangers associated with an consumption of polyunsaturated


    oils.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    ==========

    Ya so whats your question?

    k

    ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet


    News==----

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000


    Newsgroups

    Quoted message said:

    ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

  6. <chucks (at) pivot[dott]net> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    No question. Statement: it is becoming evident that cholesterol causes


    ASCVD to the same

    Quoted message said:

    degree that firemen cause house fires!

    Firemen close the streets when a fire is detected in order to put out a
    fire. The closure of the street is analogist to closing circulation. Without
    the firemen present the street would still be open. There is a direct
    correlation with the street being closed and firemen present. There is no
    correlation with the streets being open or closed and the fire.
    The closure of the artery is structural in the form of lipids. To say that
    cholesterol is not involved is a myth.

    Quoted message said:


    Karstens Rage said:
    at said:

    http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (author's web site)

    "The Cholesterol Myths : Exposing the Fallacy that Saturated Fat and


    Cholesterol

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Cause Heart Disease" by Uffe Ravnskov was first published January 1997.

    Quotes:
    1) The only effective way to lower cholesterol (blood levels, just the


    numbers) is with

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    drugs.

    2) The "prudent" diet cannot lower cholesterol more than on average a


    few per cent.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Your body produces three to four times more cholesterol than you eat.

    3) Cholesterol-lowering drugs, the statins, do prevent cardio-vascular


    disease, but this

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    is
    due to other mechanisms than cholesterol-lowering.

    4) Cholesterol is not a deadly poison

    5) A high cholesterol is not dangerous by itself, but may reflect an


    unhealthy condition

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    6) There are dangers associated with an consumption of polyunsaturated


    oils.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    ==========

    Ya so whats your question?

    k

    ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet


    News==----

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000


    Newsgroups

    Quoted message said:

    ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

  7. "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    fire. The closure of the artery is structural in the form of lipids.
    To say that cholesterol is not involved is a myth.

    There are several reasons why arguments like this get mired in serious
    confusion. The first is a failure to distinguish between *serum*
    cholesterol and *dietary* cholesterol. It is true that in most people,
    there's little correlation between the two. It's quite correct that the
    vast majority of the cholesterol in your blood was manufactured by your
    body rather than directly consumed in your diet. But it's an illogical
    leap to then conclude that diet has no effect on blood cholesterol. It
    does, but the mechanism doesn't involve the cholesterol content of food to
    any great extent (I'm sure *you're* aware of this, but many people aren't).

    It's "common sense" that if your blood cholesterol is too high, it's
    because you're eating too much cholesterol. It's also "common sense" that
    someone who had appendictis once is more likely to have it in the future
    than someone who never had it. It's also "common sense" that a heavier
    object falls faster than a lighter one. "Common sense" and "truth" have a
    rather tenuous relationship.

    Another is the cognitive distortion and logical fallacy of dichotomous
    thinking. It's certainly true that cholesterol levels are not the *sole*
    risk factor for CAD. There are certainly many people who have "perfect"
    cholesterol levels and develop CAD and even die from it. But it't
    completely illogical to demand that any risk factor account for either all
    of the risk or none of it. CAD is multifactorial. Nobody's ever seriously
    proposed that it's unifactorial, and arguing against the latter is an
    example of yet another logical fallacy, the straw man.

    Another form of false dichotomy is the assumption that either "more is
    better" or "less is better." The fact that cholesterol levels can actually
    be too low and that the body needs cholesterol for many metabolic purposes
    in no way implies that cholesterol levels can never be too high. The big
    problem here is that people apply essentially religious modes of reasoning
    to scientific matters. Many religions divide foods into "good" and "bad"
    categories (kosher/treyf, halal/haram, etc.). But science talks about "how
    much," not about "any at all." That just isn't compatible with simplistic
    religious reasoning (more sophisticated religious reasoning usually finds
    virtue in moderation, which is a bit more compatible with science).

  8. Eric Bohlman said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    fire. The closure of the artery is structural in the form of


    lipids.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    To say that cholesterol is not involved is a myth.

    There are several reasons why arguments like this get mired in


    serious

    Quoted message said:

    confusion. The first is a failure to distinguish between *serum*
    cholesterol and *dietary* cholesterol. It is true that in most


    people,

    Quoted message said:

    there's little correlation between the two. It's quite correct that


    the

    Quoted message said:

    vast majority of the cholesterol in your blood was manufactured by


    your

    Quoted message said:

    body rather than directly consumed in your diet. But it's an


    illogical

    Quoted message said:

    leap to then conclude that diet has no effect on blood cholesterol.


    It

    Quoted message said:

    does, but the mechanism doesn't involve the cholesterol content of


    food to

    Quoted message said:

    any great extent (I'm sure *you're* aware of this, but many people


    aren't).

    Quoted message said:


    It's "common sense" that if your blood cholesterol is too high, it's
    because you're eating too much cholesterol. It's also "common sense"


    that

    Quoted message said:

    someone who had appendictis once is more likely to have it in the


    future

    Quoted message said:

    than someone who never had it. It's also "common sense" that a


    heavier

    Quoted message said:

    object falls faster than a lighter one. "Common sense" and "truth"


    have a

    Quoted message said:

    rather tenuous relationship.

    Another is the cognitive distortion and logical fallacy of


    dichotomous

    Quoted message said:

    thinking. It's certainly true that cholesterol levels are not the


    *sole*

    Quoted message said:

    risk factor for CAD. There are certainly many people who have


    "perfect"

    Quoted message said:

    cholesterol levels and develop CAD and even die from it. But it't
    completely illogical to demand that any risk factor account for


    either all

    Quoted message said:

    of the risk or none of it. CAD is multifactorial. Nobody's ever


    seriously

    Quoted message said:

    proposed that it's unifactorial, and arguing against the latter is an

    Quoted message said:

    example of yet another logical fallacy, the straw man.

    Another form of false dichotomy is the assumption that either "more


    is

    Quoted message said:

    better" or "less is better." The fact that cholesterol levels can


    actually

    Quoted message said:

    be too low and that the body needs cholesterol for many metabolic


    purposes

    Quoted message said:

    in no way implies that cholesterol levels can never be too high. The


    big

    Quoted message said:

    problem here is that people apply essentially religious modes of


    reasoning

    Quoted message said:

    to scientific matters. Many religions divide foods into "good" and


    "bad"

    Quoted message said:

    categories (kosher/treyf, halal/haram, etc.). But science talks


    about "how

    Quoted message said:

    much," not about "any at all." That just isn't compatible with


    simplistic

    Quoted message said:

    religious reasoning (more sophisticated religious reasoning usually


    finds

    Quoted message said:

    virtue in moderation, which is a bit more compatible with science).

    I agree. There seems to be an ideal cholesterol level where the
    mortality is lowest and that is probably between 4.0-5.0 mmol/l
    (160-200 mg/dl). I also agree that antioxidants are important to
    prevent the oxidation of LDL-cholesterol.
    http://hermes.hhp.ufl.edu/keepingfit/ARTICLE/ideal.HTM

    Jan

  9. at said:

    http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (author's web site)

    "The Cholesterol Myths : Exposing the Fallacy that Saturated Fat and Cholesterol
    Cause Heart Disease" by Uffe Ravnskov was first published January 1997.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dr. Ravnskov is a serious, published scholar and medical scientist.
    He attempts to make the case that cholesterol is unrelated to heart
    disease.

    The cornerstones of his argument are inconsistent benefit seen in
    intervention trials and ostensible lack of association between cholesterol
    levels and degree of atherosclerosis.

    I believe that his conclusions are in error, owing to a fatal flaw in his
    data analysis.

    He has restricted his data analysis to the literature related to populations
    with high cholesterol levels (i.e. above 150-160) and to dietary
    interventions
    which are ineffective in driving cholesterol levels down to below 150-160.

    The following facts remain:

    1. Atherosclerosis is virtually unknown in populations with blood
    cholesterols below 150-60.

    2. Atherosclerosis is uniformly low in populations on very low fat
    diets.

    3. There is a clear statistical relationship between incidence of clinically
    significant coronary artery disease and pre-morbid serum cholesterol.
    This is different than in correlating the extent of atherosclerotic lesions.
    The reason for this disparity is because once atherosclerosis is intiated
    (fatty streak progresses to a small atheroma which progresses to a larger
    atheroma), other factors are more important to the progression of the
    atheroma than serum cholesterol, per se. This is where homocysteine
    and free radicals and all that other good stuff may come in.

    But if serum cholesterol is below a critical threshold level (operationally
    around 150-60) then there is no fatty streak and no atherosclerosis.
    And when you drive cholesterol levels down by more than 20%, you
    see stabilization and/or improvement in pre-existing lesions in many
    people.

    Most harmful to Ravnskov's thesis are the statin data. Consistently,
    the statin studies show improved cardiovascular disease, lower incidence
    of heart attacks, lower incidence of strokes, improved overall mortality,
    no increased risk of cancer or hemorrhagic stroke, etc. This is
    also consistent with the diet data, where moderate fat restriction
    did not lower cholesterol dramatically and where there were inconsistent
    health benefits. But marked fat restriction consistently improved
    blood pressure, insulin, weight, heart disease symptoms, pre-existing
    coronary lesions, and overall mortality.

    So Ravnskov attempted to explain away the statin data by claiming that
    the effects of statins had nothing at all do do with cholesterol.

    His arguments were as follows:

    1. Statins effective for women, "surprising because ...a high cholesterol
    is not a risk factor for women."

    2. Old individuals protected as much as younger; "high cholesterol
    not a risk factor in people over 50"

    3. Stokes reduced also; "no studies showed a high cholesterol was
    a risk factor for stroke."

    4. Patients with coronary disease protected, though high cholesterol
    only a weak risk factor for people who already had a coronary."

    5. Statins protected whether cholesterol high or low, "though most
    studies showed a normal or low cholesterol is no risk factor
    for heart disease."

    The problems with these arguments (as with Dr. Ravnskov's whole thesis)
    is in his definition of "high cholesterol." (But I should also add that
    studies certainly do exist to correlate cholesterol with stroke risk).

    What Ravnskov call's "normal" cholesterol just means "average" cholesterol.
    What the Stanford U Med School's "Heart Healthy" book calls a
    healthy cholesterol is one below 160, at which point heart disease
    becomes an unimportant problem. No cholesterol above 150-160,
    little or no risk of heart disease.

    So cholesterol is critically important, essential, and, by my definition
    causal to heart disease. If you can keep your cholesterol below 150
    with whatever diet you like, you will have a very low risk of heart disease.
    I'd maintain that a low fat/high veggie/high fiber/low sugar/low salt
    diet is the best way to do this, because of other health benefits
    (lower blood pressure, lower insulin, lower cancer risk, more
    folate and B6, etc.).

    This does not deny the fact that there are many mitigating factors
    in people with high (i.e. above 150-60) cholesterols:

    If you've got a high total cholesterol, it's helpful to have low
    homocysteine levels, to have high HDLs, maybe to have low
    serum iron, to take aspirin so that your platelets don't aggregate,
    to eat grapes, to take a drink or two per day, to exercise aerobically,
    to take vitamin E, and all sorts of things.

    But people on quasi-vegetarian diets (moderate low fat meat is probably not
    a problem and may help avoid problems with extremes of vegetarianism)
    have low cholesterols, low heart disease, low cancer, and favorable
    longevity. Won't work for everyone, but will work for a great many.

    I agree with Ravnskov that moderately low fat diets don't seem to
    do a whole lot of good and that, once you are in the elevated cholesterol
    range (above 150-160) there are other factors as important or more
    important than cholesterol per se. But - once again - no elevated
    cholesterol, virtually no heart disease. It's really just that simple.
    And nothing else save lowering cholesterol has been shown to be
    effective in reversing heart disease, once established.

    he following data from the MRFIT Study clearly show the linear trend between
    serum cholesterol and CHD risk:

    Mean Serum CHD deaths Relative
    Decile Cholesterol per 1000 Risk
    ------ ----------- ---------- --------
    1 153 3.16 1.00
    2 175 3.32 1.05
    3 187 4.15 1.31
    4 198 4.21 1.33
    5 208 5.43 1.72
    6 216 5.81 1.84
    7 226 6.94 2.20
    8 238 7.35 2.33
    9 253 9.10 2.88
    10 296 13.05 4.13

    So, even though there are other risk factors for CHD when cholsesterol
    is above
    150, cholesterol is still a major, perhaps the major, risk factor.
    ______________________________________________________________________

  10. Daniel said:
    at said:

    http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (author's web site)

    "The Cholesterol Myths : Exposing the Fallacy that Saturated Fat


    and Cholesterol

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Cause Heart Disease" by Uffe Ravnskov was first published January


    1997.

    Quoted message said:


    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dr. Ravnskov is a serious, published scholar and medical scientist.
    He attempts to make the case that cholesterol is unrelated to heart
    disease.

    The cornerstones of his argument are inconsistent benefit seen in
    intervention trials and ostensible lack of association between


    cholesterol

    Quoted message said:

    levels and degree of atherosclerosis.

    I believe that his conclusions are in error, owing to a fatal flaw in


    his

    Quoted message said:

    data analysis.

    He has restricted his data analysis to the literature related to


    populations

    Quoted message said:

    with high cholesterol levels (i.e. above 150-160) and to dietary
    interventions
    which are ineffective in driving cholesterol levels down to below


    150-160.

    Quoted message said:


    The following facts remain:

    1. Atherosclerosis is virtually unknown in populations with blood
    cholesterols below 150-60.

    2. Atherosclerosis is uniformly low in populations on very low fat
    diets.

    3. There is a clear statistical relationship between incidence of


    clinically

    Quoted message said:

    significant coronary artery disease and pre-morbid serum cholesterol.
    This is different than in correlating the extent of atherosclerotic


    lesions.

    Quoted message said:

    The reason for this disparity is because once atherosclerosis is


    intiated

    Quoted message said:

    (fatty streak progresses to a small atheroma which progresses to a


    larger

    Quoted message said:

    atheroma), other factors are more important to the progression of the
    atheroma than serum cholesterol, per se. This is where homocysteine
    and free radicals and all that other good stuff may come in.

    But if serum cholesterol is below a critical threshold level


    (operationally

    Quoted message said:

    around 150-60) then there is no fatty streak and no atherosclerosis.


    ----

    Quoted message said:

    I agree with Ravnskov that moderately low fat diets don't seem to
    do a whole lot of good and that, once you are in the elevated


    cholesterol

    Quoted message said:

    range (above 150-160) there are other factors as important or more
    important than cholesterol per se. But - once again - no elevated
    cholesterol, virtually no heart disease. It's really just that


    simple.

    Quoted message said:

    And nothing else save lowering cholesterol has been shown to be
    effective in reversing heart disease, once established.

    he following data from the MRFIT Study clearly show the linear trend


    between

    Quoted message said:

    serum cholesterol and CHD risk:

    Mean Serum CHD deaths Relative
    Decile Cholesterol per 1000 Risk
    ------ ----------- ---------- --------
    1 153 3.16 1.00
    2 175 3.32 1.05
    3 187 4.15 1.31

    I think that we should rather talk about the _total_ mortality than CHD
    mortality. According to the same MRFIT study the _total_ mortality
    increases when serum cholesterol is below 160 mg/dl. The
    within-population curve of the same study shows that the lowest total
    mortality is somewhere between 180 and 200 mg/dl (4.5-5.0 mmol/l).

    Jan

  11. Jan said:
    Daniel said:
    at said:

    http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (author's web site)

    "The Cholesterol Myths : Exposing the Fallacy that Saturated Fat

    and Cholesterol

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Cause Heart Disease" by Uffe Ravnskov was first published January

    1997.

    Quoted message said:

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dr. Ravnskov is a serious, published scholar and medical scientist.
    He attempts to make the case that cholesterol is unrelated to heart
    disease.

    The cornerstones of his argument are inconsistent benefit seen in
    intervention trials and ostensible lack of association between

    cholesterol

    Quoted message said:

    levels and degree of atherosclerosis.

    I believe that his conclusions are in error, owing to a fatal flaw in

    his

    Quoted message said:

    data analysis.

    He has restricted his data analysis to the literature related to

    populations

    Quoted message said:

    with high cholesterol levels (i.e. above 150-160) and to dietary
    interventions
    which are ineffective in driving cholesterol levels down to below

    150-160.

    Quoted message said:

    The following facts remain:

    1. Atherosclerosis is virtually unknown in populations with blood
    cholesterols below 150-60.

    2. Atherosclerosis is uniformly low in populations on very low fat
    diets.

    3. There is a clear statistical relationship between incidence of

    clinically

    Quoted message said:

    significant coronary artery disease and pre-morbid serum cholesterol.
    This is different than in correlating the extent of atherosclerotic

    lesions.

    Quoted message said:

    The reason for this disparity is because once atherosclerosis is

    intiated

    Quoted message said:

    (fatty streak progresses to a small atheroma which progresses to a

    larger

    Quoted message said:

    atheroma), other factors are more important to the progression of the
    atheroma than serum cholesterol, per se. This is where homocysteine
    and free radicals and all that other good stuff may come in.

    But if serum cholesterol is below a critical threshold level

    (operationally

    Quoted message said:

    around 150-60) then there is no fatty streak and no atherosclerosis.

    ----

    Quoted message said:

    I agree with Ravnskov that moderately low fat diets don't seem to
    do a whole lot of good and that, once you are in the elevated

    cholesterol

    Quoted message said:

    range (above 150-160) there are other factors as important or more
    important than cholesterol per se. But - once again - no elevated
    cholesterol, virtually no heart disease. It's really just that

    simple.

    Quoted message said:

    And nothing else save lowering cholesterol has been shown to be
    effective in reversing heart disease, once established.

    he following data from the MRFIT Study clearly show the linear trend

    between

    Quoted message said:

    serum cholesterol and CHD risk:

    Mean Serum CHD deaths Relative
    Decile Cholesterol per 1000 Risk
    ------ ----------- ---------- --------
    1 153 3.16 1.00
    2 175 3.32 1.05
    3 187 4.15 1.31

    I think that we should rather talk about the _total_ mortality than CHD
    mortality. According to the same MRFIT study the _total_ mortality
    increases when serum cholesterol is below 160 mg/dl. The
    within-population curve of the same study shows that the lowest total
    mortality is somewhere between 180 and 200 mg/dl (4.5-5.0 mmol/l).

    It's useless to talk about total mortality as there are too many factors
    involved
    For example Asians have very low serum cholesterol and very low CHD
    risk, but their mortality is high because of hemmorhagic stroke due to
    high salt consumption
    Also depression and mortality are not linked to low cholesterol levels
    because low cholesterol levels cause them, but actually because they
    cause low cholesterol levels
    Depression and diseases cause eating disorders or lack of appetite
    resulting in less dietary cholesterol consumed and less cholesterol
    synthesized by the body
    Some diseases that are well known to cause low cholesterol levels are:
    cancers, tumors, AIDS, leukemia and almost any chronic disease
    Bottom line: the disease process causes low cholesterol levels;
    the low cholesterol doesn't cause the diseases
    That's why looking at total mortality is completely useless
    Many people with serum cholesterol below 160 have cancer

    Daniel

  12. "Eric Bohlman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    fire. The closure of the artery is structural in the form of lipids.
    To say that cholesterol is not involved is a myth.

    There are several reasons why arguments like this get mired in serious
    confusion. The first is a failure to distinguish between *serum*
    cholesterol and *dietary* cholesterol. It is true that in most people,
    there's little correlation between the two. It's quite correct that the
    vast majority of the cholesterol in your blood was manufactured by your
    body rather than directly consumed in your diet. But it's an illogical
    leap to then conclude that diet has no effect on blood cholesterol. It

    Drugs are effective against both and therefore no distinction is necessary.
    Cholesterol is present in the artery chocking off the blood circulation so
    the reason why cholesterol is there is not an issue only that it is there.

    Quoted message said:

    does, but the mechanism doesn't involve the cholesterol content of food to
    any great extent (I'm sure *you're* aware of this, but many people


    aren't).

    You can reduce your cholesterol level by dieting so if that works then fine
    but if you can not reduce enough then drugs is the only way to go.

    Quoted message said:


    It's "common sense" that if your blood cholesterol is too high, it's
    because you're eating too much cholesterol. It's also "common sense" that
    someone who had appendictis once is more likely to have it in the future
    than someone who never had it. It's also "common sense" that a heavier
    object falls faster than a lighter one. "Common sense" and "truth" have a
    rather tenuous relationship.

    Which is way do not rely on common sense and rely on a blood test. The blood
    test is objective and not subjective.

    Quoted message said:


    Another is the cognitive distortion and logical fallacy of dichotomous
    thinking. It's certainly true that cholesterol levels are not the *sole*
    risk factor for CAD. There are certainly many people who have "perfect"
    cholesterol levels and develop CAD and even die from it. But it't
    completely illogical to demand that any risk factor account for either all
    of the risk or none of it. CAD is multifactorial. Nobody's ever


    seriously

    Quoted message said:

    proposed that it's unifactorial, and arguing against the latter is an
    example of yet another logical fallacy, the straw man.

    That is true and the other fallacy is that because cholesterol is good in
    many ways that is therefore can not be bad in the arteries, the firemen and
    the fire arguement.

    Quoted message said:


    Another form of false dichotomy is the assumption that either "more is
    better" or "less is better." The fact that cholesterol levels can


    actually

    Quoted message said:

    be too low and that the body needs cholesterol for many metabolic purposes
    in no way implies that cholesterol levels can never be too high.


    True again as well as in some situations a high cholesterol may actually be
    good but when it is used as a assesment in CAD risks we are talking about a
    young persons future risk.

    The big

    Quoted message said:

    problem here is that people apply essentially religious modes of reasoning
    to scientific matters. Many religions divide foods into "good" and "bad"
    categories (kosher/treyf, halal/haram, etc.). But science talks about


    "how

    Quoted message said:

    much," not about "any at all." That just isn't compatible with simplistic
    religious reasoning (more sophisticated religious reasoning usually finds
    virtue in moderation, which is a bit more compatible with science).

    One involves a science and a blood cholesterol level and the other involves
    philosophy in arguing which foods are good or not good in reducing blood
    cholesterol levels.

  13. Daniel said:
    Jan said:

    I think that we should rather talk about the _total_ mortality than


    CHD

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    mortality. According to the same MRFIT study the _total_ mortality
    increases when serum cholesterol is below 160 mg/dl. The
    within-population curve of the same study shows that the lowest


    total

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    mortality is somewhere between 180 and 200 mg/dl (4.5-5.0 mmol/l).

    It's useless to talk about total mortality as there are too many


    factors

    Quoted message said:

    involved
    For example Asians have very low serum cholesterol and very low CHD
    risk, but their mortality is high because of hemmorhagic stroke due


    to

    Quoted message said:

    high salt consumption
    Also depression and mortality are not linked to low cholesterol


    levels

    Quoted message said:

    because low cholesterol levels cause them, but actually because they
    cause low cholesterol levels
    Depression and diseases cause eating disorders or lack of appetite
    resulting in less dietary cholesterol consumed and less cholesterol
    synthesized by the body
    Some diseases that are well known to cause low cholesterol levels


    are:

    Quoted message said:

    cancers, tumors, AIDS, leukemia and almost any chronic disease
    Bottom line: the disease process causes low cholesterol levels;
    the low cholesterol doesn't cause the diseases
    That's why looking at total mortality is completely useless
    Many people with serum cholesterol below 160 have cancer

    I think that the high total mortality/low cholesterol levels could also
    be a marker of a deficient diet. Unsupplemented vegan diet would fit to
    that picture. On average vegans have low cholesterol levels (mean 167
    mg/dl) and still they've got an increased risk of stroke and some other
    diseases. I am not quite convinced that very low cholesterol levels are
    totally caused by diseases.

    Jan

  14. "Daniel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    at said:

    http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (author's web site)

    "The Cholesterol Myths : Exposing the Fallacy that Saturated Fat and


    Cholesterol

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Cause Heart Disease" by Uffe Ravnskov was first published January 1997.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dr. Ravnskov is a serious, published scholar and medical scientist.
    He attempts to make the case that cholesterol is unrelated to heart
    disease.

    The cornerstones of his argument are inconsistent benefit seen in
    intervention trials and ostensible lack of association between cholesterol
    levels and degree of atherosclerosis.

    Did he look at cross sections of arteries and find cholesterol there or if
    not what is the actual material clogging the arteries?
    Not everyone with a high cholesterol will correlate with the degree of
    atherosclerosis and why would they. They are individuals with differing
    genetics and diet and precipitating cofactors.
    Intervention trial failures does not prove or disprove cofactors in CAD.

    Quoted message said:


    I believe that his conclusions are in error, owing to a fatal flaw in his
    data analysis.

    He has restricted his data analysis to the literature related to


    populations

    Quoted message said:

    with high cholesterol levels (i.e. above 150-160) and to dietary
    interventions
    which are ineffective in driving cholesterol levels down to below 150-160.

    Good pick up but some old literature related to old techniques in lipid
    analysis so contradictory findings would and can be expected. They only did
    total cholesterol levels then.

    Quoted message said:


    The following facts remain:

    1. Atherosclerosis is virtually unknown in populations with blood
    cholesterols below 150-60.


    You need to look at subfractions of lipids and not just totals.

    Quoted message said:


    2. Atherosclerosis is uniformly low in populations on very low fat
    diets.


    Generalizations are used when specifics are lacking. Eventually each persons
    genetic profile will be used to make dietary decisions.

    Quoted message said:


    3. There is a clear statistical relationship between incidence of


    clinically

    Quoted message said:

    significant coronary artery disease and pre-morbid serum cholesterol.
    This is different than in correlating the extent of atherosclerotic


    lesions.

    You are counting the firemen when eventually the cause of the fire will be
    found and hopefully render the number of firemen harmless.

    Quoted message said:

    The reason for this disparity is because once atherosclerosis is intiated
    (fatty streak progresses to a small atheroma which progresses to a larger
    atheroma), other factors are more important to the progression of the
    atheroma than serum cholesterol, per se. This is where homocysteine
    and free radicals and all that other good stuff may come in.

    Correct.

    Quoted message said:


    But if serum cholesterol is below a critical threshold level


    (operationally

    Quoted message said:

    around 150-60) then there is no fatty streak and no atherosclerosis.

    You can have a heart attack with an LDL of 100 if most of that LDL is
    composed of Lp(a) even in the presence of a normal HDL.

    Quoted message said:

    And when you drive cholesterol levels down by more than 20%, you
    see stabilization and/or improvement in pre-existing lesions in many
    people.


    At present that's all they can do.

  15. Marcio Watanabe said:
    Daniel said:

    Also depression and mortality are not linked to low cholesterol levels
    because low cholesterol levels cause them, but actually because they
    cause low cholesterol levels

    Mortality causes low cholesterol levels?! Wow, that's not a step one
    wants to take to lower cholesterol. I've read a lot of dumb
    statements in this thread but this one takes the cake.

    Ehmm... I of course meant "diseases"

    Daniel

  16. "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Daniel said:
    Jan said:

    I think that we should rather talk about the _total_ mortality than


    CHD

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    mortality. According to the same MRFIT study the _total_ mortality
    increases when serum cholesterol is below 160 mg/dl. The
    within-population curve of the same study shows that the lowest


    total

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    mortality is somewhere between 180 and 200 mg/dl (4.5-5.0 mmol/l).

    It's useless to talk about total mortality as there are too many


    factors

    Quoted message said:

    involved
    For example Asians have very low serum cholesterol and very low CHD
    risk, but their mortality is high because of hemmorhagic stroke due


    to

    Quoted message said:

    high salt consumption
    Also depression and mortality are not linked to low cholesterol


    levels

    Quoted message said:

    because low cholesterol levels cause them, but actually because they
    cause low cholesterol levels
    Depression and diseases cause eating disorders or lack of appetite
    resulting in less dietary cholesterol consumed and less cholesterol
    synthesized by the body
    Some diseases that are well known to cause low cholesterol levels


    are:

    Quoted message said:

    cancers, tumors, AIDS, leukemia and almost any chronic disease
    Bottom line: the disease process causes low cholesterol levels;
    the low cholesterol doesn't cause the diseases
    That's why looking at total mortality is completely useless
    Many people with serum cholesterol below 160 have cancer

    I think that the high total mortality/low cholesterol levels could also
    be a marker of a deficient diet. Unsupplemented vegan diet would fit to
    that picture. On average vegans have low cholesterol levels (mean 167
    mg/dl) and still they've got an increased risk of stroke and some other
    diseases. I am not quite convinced that very low cholesterol levels are
    totally caused by diseases.

    Jan


    There are exceptions to everything and genetic polymorphism gene dosage
    presenting with variable findings.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/abetalipoproteinemia

  17. The cellular/molecular evidence is clear: it is the oxysterols
    causing the problems, but when you take the serum tests, they don't
    separate clean cholesterol from oxdized cholesterol, so they can't
    tell whether you have a large amount of your cholesterol oxidized or
    not. Just stay away from more than a trace amount of dietary
    polyunsaturated fatty acids and eat an assortment of high antioxidant
    foods and then you won't have to worry about this in the first place.

    Daniel <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    at said:

    http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (author's web site)

    "The Cholesterol Myths : Exposing the Fallacy that Saturated Fat and Cholesterol
    Cause Heart Disease" by Uffe Ravnskov was first published January 1997.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dr. Ravnskov is a serious, published scholar and medical scientist.
    He attempts to make the case that cholesterol is unrelated to heart
    disease.

    The cornerstones of his argument are inconsistent benefit seen in
    intervention trials and ostensible lack of association between cholesterol
    levels and degree of atherosclerosis.

    I believe that his conclusions are in error, owing to a fatal flaw in his
    data analysis.

    He has restricted his data analysis to the literature related to populations
    with high cholesterol levels (i.e. above 150-160) and to dietary
    interventions
    which are ineffective in driving cholesterol levels down to below 150-160.

    The following facts remain:

    1. Atherosclerosis is virtually unknown in populations with blood
    cholesterols below 150-60.

    2. Atherosclerosis is uniformly low in populations on very low fat
    diets.

    3. There is a clear statistical relationship between incidence of clinically
    significant coronary artery disease and pre-morbid serum cholesterol.
    This is different than in correlating the extent of atherosclerotic lesions.
    The reason for this disparity is because once atherosclerosis is intiated
    (fatty streak progresses to a small atheroma which progresses to a larger
    atheroma), other factors are more important to the progression of the
    atheroma than serum cholesterol, per se. This is where homocysteine
    and free radicals and all that other good stuff may come in.

    But if serum cholesterol is below a critical threshold level (operationally
    around 150-60) then there is no fatty streak and no atherosclerosis.
    And when you drive cholesterol levels down by more than 20%, you
    see stabilization and/or improvement in pre-existing lesions in many
    people.

    Most harmful to Ravnskov's thesis are the statin data. Consistently,
    the statin studies show improved cardiovascular disease, lower incidence
    of heart attacks, lower incidence of strokes, improved overall mortality,
    no increased risk of cancer or hemorrhagic stroke, etc. This is
    also consistent with the diet data, where moderate fat restriction
    did not lower cholesterol dramatically and where there were inconsistent
    health benefits. But marked fat restriction consistently improved
    blood pressure, insulin, weight, heart disease symptoms, pre-existing
    coronary lesions, and overall mortality.

    So Ravnskov attempted to explain away the statin data by claiming that
    the effects of statins had nothing at all do do with cholesterol.

    His arguments were as follows:

    1. Statins effective for women, "surprising because ...a high cholesterol
    is not a risk factor for women."

    2. Old individuals protected as much as younger; "high cholesterol
    not a risk factor in people over 50"

    3. Stokes reduced also; "no studies showed a high cholesterol was
    a risk factor for stroke."

    4. Patients with coronary disease protected, though high cholesterol
    only a weak risk factor for people who already had a coronary."

    5. Statins protected whether cholesterol high or low, "though most
    studies showed a normal or low cholesterol is no risk factor
    for heart disease."

    The problems with these arguments (as with Dr. Ravnskov's whole thesis)
    is in his definition of "high cholesterol." (But I should also add that
    studies certainly do exist to correlate cholesterol with stroke risk).

    What Ravnskov call's "normal" cholesterol just means "average" cholesterol.
    What the Stanford U Med School's "Heart Healthy" book calls a
    healthy cholesterol is one below 160, at which point heart disease
    becomes an unimportant problem. No cholesterol above 150-160,
    little or no risk of heart disease.

    So cholesterol is critically important, essential, and, by my definition
    causal to heart disease. If you can keep your cholesterol below 150
    with whatever diet you like, you will have a very low risk of heart disease.
    I'd maintain that a low fat/high veggie/high fiber/low sugar/low salt
    diet is the best way to do this, because of other health benefits
    (lower blood pressure, lower insulin, lower cancer risk, more
    folate and B6, etc.).

    This does not deny the fact that there are many mitigating factors
    in people with high (i.e. above 150-60) cholesterols:

    If you've got a high total cholesterol, it's helpful to have low
    homocysteine levels, to have high HDLs, maybe to have low
    serum iron, to take aspirin so that your platelets don't aggregate,
    to eat grapes, to take a drink or two per day, to exercise aerobically,
    to take vitamin E, and all sorts of things.

    But people on quasi-vegetarian diets (moderate low fat meat is probably not
    a problem and may help avoid problems with extremes of vegetarianism)
    have low cholesterols, low heart disease, low cancer, and favorable
    longevity. Won't work for everyone, but will work for a great many.

    I agree with Ravnskov that moderately low fat diets don't seem to
    do a whole lot of good and that, once you are in the elevated cholesterol
    range (above 150-160) there are other factors as important or more
    important than cholesterol per se. But - once again - no elevated
    cholesterol, virtually no heart disease. It's really just that simple.
    And nothing else save lowering cholesterol has been shown to be
    effective in reversing heart disease, once established.

    he following data from the MRFIT Study clearly show the linear trend between
    serum cholesterol and CHD risk:

    Mean Serum CHD deaths Relative
    Decile Cholesterol per 1000 Risk
    ------ ----------- ---------- --------
    1 153 3.16 1.00
    2 175 3.32 1.05
    3 187 4.15 1.31
    4 198 4.21 1.33
    5 208 5.43 1.72
    6 216 5.81 1.84
    7 226 6.94 2.20
    8 238 7.35 2.33
    9 253 9.10 2.88
    10 296 13.05 4.13

    So, even though there are other risk factors for CHD when cholsesterol
    is above
    150, cholesterol is still a major, perhaps the major, risk factor.
    ______________________________________________________________________

  18. Never said it wasn't involved! it's just not causal.
    Thought the analogy would be clear, my fault...

    Robert said:


    <chucks (at) pivot[dott]net> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    No question. Statement: it is becoming evident that cholesterol causes


    ASCVD to the same

    Quoted message said:

    degree that firemen cause house fires!

    Firemen close the streets when a fire is detected in order to put out a
    fire. The closure of the street is analogist to closing circulation. Without
    the firemen present the street would still be open. There is a direct
    correlation with the street being closed and firemen present. There is no
    correlation with the streets being open or closed and the fire.
    The closure of the artery is structural in the form of lipids. To say that
    cholesterol is not involved is a myth.

    Quoted message said:


    Karstens Rage said:

    at wrote:
    > http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (author's web site)
    >
    > "The Cholesterol Myths : Exposing the Fallacy that Saturated Fat and


    Cholesterol

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Cause Heart Disease" by Uffe Ravnskov was first published January 1997.
    >
    > Quotes:
    > 1) The only effective way to lower cholesterol (blood levels, just the


    numbers) is with

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > drugs.
    >
    > 2) The "prudent" diet cannot lower cholesterol more than on average a


    few per cent.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Your body produces three to four times more cholesterol than you eat.
    >
    > 3) Cholesterol-lowering drugs, the statins, do prevent cardio-vascular


    disease, but this

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > is
    > due to other mechanisms than cholesterol-lowering.
    >
    > 4) Cholesterol is not a deadly poison
    >
    > 5) A high cholesterol is not dangerous by itself, but may reflect an


    unhealthy condition

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >
    > 6) There are dangers associated with an consumption of polyunsaturated


    oils.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > ==========

    Ya so whats your question?

    k

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    News==----

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000


    Newsgroups

    Quoted message said:

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  19. Don't you just love Taxonomists!

    Eric Bohlman said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    fire. The closure of the artery is structural in the form of lipids.
    To say that cholesterol is not involved is a myth.

    There are several reasons why arguments like this get mired in serious
    confusion. The first is a failure to distinguish between *serum*
    cholesterol and *dietary* cholesterol. It is true that in most people,
    there's little correlation between the two. It's quite correct that the
    vast majority of the cholesterol in your blood was manufactured by your
    body rather than directly consumed in your diet. But it's an illogical
    leap to then conclude that diet has no effect on blood cholesterol. It
    does, but the mechanism doesn't involve the cholesterol content of food to
    any great extent (I'm sure *you're* aware of this, but many people aren't).

    It's "common sense" that if your blood cholesterol is too high, it's
    because you're eating too much cholesterol. It's also "common sense" that
    someone who had appendictis once is more likely to have it in the future
    than someone who never had it. It's also "common sense" that a heavier
    object falls faster than a lighter one. "Common sense" and "truth" have a
    rather tenuous relationship.

    Another is the cognitive distortion and logical fallacy of dichotomous
    thinking. It's certainly true that cholesterol levels are not the *sole*
    risk factor for CAD. There are certainly many people who have "perfect"
    cholesterol levels and develop CAD and even die from it. But it't
    completely illogical to demand that any risk factor account for either all
    of the risk or none of it. CAD is multifactorial. Nobody's ever seriously
    proposed that it's unifactorial, and arguing against the latter is an
    example of yet another logical fallacy, the straw man.

    Another form of false dichotomy is the assumption that either "more is
    better" or "less is better." The fact that cholesterol levels can actually
    be too low and that the body needs cholesterol for many metabolic purposes
    in no way implies that cholesterol levels can never be too high. The big
    problem here is that people apply essentially religious modes of reasoning
    to scientific matters. Many religions divide foods into "good" and "bad"
    categories (kosher/treyf, halal/haram, etc.). But science talks about "how
    much," not about "any at all." That just isn't compatible with simplistic
    religious reasoning (more sophisticated religious reasoning usually finds
    virtue in moderation, which is a bit more compatible with science).

    ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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  20. <chucks (at) pivot[dott]net> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Never said it wasn't involved! it's just not causal.
    Thought the analogy would be clear, my fault...


    Need to take it one step at a time Chuck. There are many diseases out there
    that they haven't got a clue as to what causes them or even factors related
    to them.
    They usually follow the pathophysiology by factors involved and trace it
    back to the point of origin or inciting event.
    If they knew what is damaging the artery to bring about an inflammatory
    response then they could target that.

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