Cyclic Ketogenic

Rusty said:

Anybody have experience with this?

Which one? There are a couple.

No.

--
Most people are dumb as bricks; some people are dumber than that. -- MFW

"Rusty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Anybody have experience with this?

No.

--
Most people are dumb as bricks; some people are dumber than that. -- MFW

"Rusty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anybody have experience with this?

"Rusty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anybody have experience with this?

I don't know what this is. If it's a fancy buzzword for going in and out of
ketosis, I suspect it would be somewhat self-defeating.

Jim Bard said:

I don't know what this is. If it's a fancy buzzword for going in
and out of ketosis, I suspect it would be somewhat self-defeating.

Yup, you don't know what it is. Cyclic diets take advantage of the
fact that low carbing makes your muscles more insulin sensitive,
allowing you to play tricks with workouts and carbohydrates that are
otherwise impossible. For example, on UD2, after the low carb days
and associated workouts, you eat about 1.5 kg of carbs in a 30 hour
period, while still losing fat - all the carbs go to muscle glycogen!

"DJ Delorie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jim Bard said:

I don't know what this is. If it's a fancy buzzword for going in
and out of ketosis, I suspect it would be somewhat self-defeating.

Yup, you don't know what it is. Cyclic diets take advantage of the
fact that low carbing makes your muscles more insulin sensitive,
allowing you to play tricks with workouts and carbohydrates that are
otherwise impossible. For example, on UD2, after the low carb days
and associated workouts, you eat about 1.5 kg of carbs in a 30 hour
period, while still losing fat - all the carbs go to muscle glycogen!

You'll have to explain that to me, thanks. What is 'muscle glycogen'? How
is it different from glycogen in general? Why would muscles be more
sensitive to insulin than the rest of your body?

I'm a bit curious, here.

I'm adding this to my web site for future reference:
http://www.delorie.com/health/muscle-glycogen.html

Jim Bard said:

What is 'muscle glycogen'?

Glycogen stored in muscle. For LCers, this is "good" glycogen,
compared to liver glycogen which effects hormone levels relating to
ketosis and fat metabolism.

Quoted message said:

How is it different from glycogen in general?

It's not. It's the same type of glycogen as liver glycogen, for
example, just stored in muscles. Once in the muscle, though, it can
only be used for muscle activity, unlike livery glycogen which can be
released back into the bloodstream for use elsewhere.

The term "partitioning" is common among body builders, it means
deciding where nutrients go inside the body. Mostly, it's genetic - a
certain percent goes to muscle, a certain percent goes to fat stores,
a certain percent goes to metabolism, etc. Changing partitioning is a
common pursuit, using techniques ranging from exercise and diet to
prescription performance drugs.

Quoted message said:

Why would muscles be more sensitive to insulin than the rest of your
body?

Mostly that's genetic - each component of your body (it even varies
between muscles) has a certain sensitivity threshold. Most of the
effort "we" put into insulin sensitivity is to move the balance point
as much as we can towards muscle and away from fat.

There are a few factors that can influence partitioning by changing
insulin sensitivity for muscles, fat, and liver in different
(i.e. unequal) ways. Just the fact that muscle glycogen stores are
low will make muscles more insulin sensitive. That's why long-term
LCers will "bloat" by many pounds if they eat carbs - most of it goes
to muscle stores, and the water required to store it can add 5-10 lbs
very quickly. Liver storage alone can only account for about 1 lb.

Exercise can also make muscles more sensitive, both by depleting
glycogen stores even more, and by enzyme changes due to the exercise
itself causing cell stress (i.e. strength training does this more than
cardio).

Fish oil is a common dietary aid that increases muscle sensitivity and
reduces fat cell sensitivity. Various performance drugs also do this,
but with much more "interesting" side effects.

So, in a cyclic diet, you commonly two two phases: First, you LC and
low calorie diet, while doing high-rep medium-weight workouts to fully
deplete muscle glycogen, and stay there for a few days to really boost
insulin sensitivity. Then, one more workout to get the enzymes going
so muscles are REALLY sensitive and the liver is way into ketosis,
then WHAM eat a big load of carbs and the muscles just suck them up so
fast the liver and fat cells don't have time to react.

For more information, google for "CKD", "bodyopus", or "UD2", or see
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ for the "The Ketogenic Diet" and
"Ultimate Diet 2.0" books.

Jim Bard said:

"DJ Delorie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jim Bard said:

I don't know what this is. If it's a fancy buzzword for going in
and out of ketosis, I suspect it would be somewhat self-defeating.

Yup, you don't know what it is. Cyclic diets take advantage of the
fact that low carbing makes your muscles more insulin sensitive,
allowing you to play tricks with workouts and carbohydrates that are
otherwise impossible. For example, on UD2, after the low carb days
and associated workouts, you eat about 1.5 kg of carbs in a 30 hour
period, while still losing fat - all the carbs go to muscle glycogen!

You'll have to explain that to me, thanks. What is 'muscle glycogen'?
How
is it different from glycogen in general? Why would muscles be more
sensitive to insulin than the rest of your body?

I'm a bit curious, here.

Supposedly, exercise depletes muscle glycogen. When you eat carbs after a
workout (typically), the carbs go preferentially to replace muscle
glycogen. I find this to be true, as I can take in carbs after a workout
that would typically cause my blood sugar to shoot through the roof. I
don't have this effect after working out. The UD2 program is a more
complex extension of this.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

"Jim Bard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

You'll have to explain that to me, thanks. What is 'muscle glycogen'? How
is it different from glycogen in general? Why would muscles be more
sensitive to insulin than the rest of your body?

I'm a bit curious, here.

You'll have better luck going to misc.fitness.weights and asking Lyle
McDonald, he's the bloke who came up with the diet mentioned above.

DJ Delorie said:

I'm adding this to my web site for future reference:
http://www.delorie.com/health/muscle-glycogen.html

Jim Bard said:

What is 'muscle glycogen'?

Glycogen stored in muscle. For LCers, this is "good" glycogen,
compared to liver glycogen which effects hormone levels relating to
ketosis and fat metabolism.

Quoted message said:

How is it different from glycogen in general?

It's not. It's the same type of glycogen as liver glycogen, for
example, just stored in muscles. Once in the muscle, though, it can
only be used for muscle activity, unlike livery glycogen which can be
released back into the bloodstream for use elsewhere.

The term "partitioning" is common among body builders, it means
deciding where nutrients go inside the body. Mostly, it's genetic - a
certain percent goes to muscle, a certain percent goes to fat stores,
a certain percent goes to metabolism, etc. Changing partitioning is a
common pursuit, using techniques ranging from exercise and diet to
prescription performance drugs.

Quoted message said:

Why would muscles be more sensitive to insulin than the rest of your
body?

Mostly that's genetic - each component of your body (it even varies
between muscles) has a certain sensitivity threshold. Most of the
effort "we" put into insulin sensitivity is to move the balance point
as much as we can towards muscle and away from fat.

There are a few factors that can influence partitioning by changing
insulin sensitivity for muscles, fat, and liver in different
(i.e. unequal) ways. Just the fact that muscle glycogen stores are
low will make muscles more insulin sensitive. That's why long-term
LCers will "bloat" by many pounds if they eat carbs - most of it goes
to muscle stores, and the water required to store it can add 5-10 lbs
very quickly. Liver storage alone can only account for about 1 lb.

Exercise can also make muscles more sensitive, both by depleting
glycogen stores even more, and by enzyme changes due to the exercise
itself causing cell stress (i.e. strength training does this more than
cardio).

Fish oil is a common dietary aid that increases muscle sensitivity and
reduces fat cell sensitivity. Various performance drugs also do this,
but with much more "interesting" side effects.

So, in a cyclic diet, you commonly two two phases: First, you LC and
low calorie diet, while doing high-rep medium-weight workouts to fully
deplete muscle glycogen, and stay there for a few days to really boost
insulin sensitivity. Then, one more workout to get the enzymes going
so muscles are REALLY sensitive and the liver is way into ketosis,
then WHAM eat a big load of carbs and the muscles just suck them up so
fast the liver and fat cells don't have time to react.

For more information, google for "CKD", "bodyopus", or "UD2", or see
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ for the "The Ketogenic Diet" and
"Ultimate Diet 2.0" books.

Isn't this the same as a bodybuilders 'carb loading' phase but instead
of taking twelve weeks you LC aprox. 5-6 days then carb load for 48 hours?

DJ Delorie wrote:
:: I'm adding this to my web site for future reference:
:: http://www.delorie.com/health/muscle-glycogen.html
::
:: "Jim Bard" <[email hidden]> writes:
::: What is 'muscle glycogen'?
::
:: Glycogen stored in muscle. For LCers, this is "good" glycogen,
:: compared to liver glycogen which effects hormone levels relating to
:: ketosis and fat metabolism.
::
::: How is it different from glycogen in general?
::
:: It's not. It's the same type of glycogen as liver glycogen, for
:: example, just stored in muscles. Once in the muscle, though, it can
:: only be used for muscle activity, unlike livery glycogen which can be
:: released back into the bloodstream for use elsewhere.
::
:: The term "partitioning" is common among body builders, it means
:: deciding where nutrients go inside the body. Mostly, it's genetic -
:: a certain percent goes to muscle, a certain percent goes to fat
:: stores, a certain percent goes to metabolism, etc. Changing
:: partitioning is a common pursuit, using techniques ranging from
:: exercise and diet to prescription performance drugs.
::
::: Why would muscles be more sensitive to insulin than the rest of your
::: body?
::
:: Mostly that's genetic - each component of your body (it even varies
:: between muscles) has a certain sensitivity threshold. Most of the
:: effort "we" put into insulin sensitivity is to move the balance point
:: as much as we can towards muscle and away from fat.
::
:: There are a few factors that can influence partitioning by changing
:: insulin sensitivity for muscles, fat, and liver in different
:: (i.e. unequal) ways. Just the fact that muscle glycogen stores are
:: low will make muscles more insulin sensitive. That's why long-term
:: LCers will "bloat" by many pounds if they eat carbs - most of it goes
:: to muscle stores, and the water required to store it can add 5-10 lbs
:: very quickly. Liver storage alone can only account for about 1 lb.
::
:: Exercise can also make muscles more sensitive, both by depleting
:: glycogen stores even more, and by enzyme changes due to the exercise
:: itself causing cell stress (i.e. strength training does this more
:: than cardio).
::
:: Fish oil is a common dietary aid that increases muscle sensitivity
:: and reduces fat cell sensitivity. Various performance drugs also do
:: this, but with much more "interesting" side effects.
::
:: So, in a cyclic diet, you commonly two two phases: First, you LC and
:: low calorie diet, while doing high-rep medium-weight workouts to
:: fully deplete muscle glycogen, and stay there for a few days to
:: really boost insulin sensitivity. Then, one more workout to get the
:: enzymes going so muscles are REALLY sensitive and the liver is way
:: into ketosis, then WHAM eat a big load of carbs and the muscles just
:: suck them up so fast the liver and fat cells don't have time to
:: react.
::

Don't forget the protein!!!! 🙂

:: For more information, google for "CKD", "bodyopus", or "UD2", or see
:: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ for the "The Ketogenic Diet" and
:: "Ultimate Diet 2.0" books.

DJ Delorie wrote:
:: I'm adding this to my web site for future reference:
:: http://www.delorie.com/health/muscle-glycogen.html
::
:: "Jim Bard" <[email hidden]> writes:
::: What is 'muscle glycogen'?
::
:: Glycogen stored in muscle. For LCers, this is "good" glycogen,
:: compared to liver glycogen which effects hormone levels relating to
:: ketosis and fat metabolism.
::
::: How is it different from glycogen in general?
::
:: It's not. It's the same type of glycogen as liver glycogen, for
:: example, just stored in muscles. Once in the muscle, though, it can
:: only be used for muscle activity, unlike livery glycogen which can be
:: released back into the bloodstream for use elsewhere.
::
:: The term "partitioning" is common among body builders, it means
:: deciding where nutrients go inside the body. Mostly, it's genetic -
:: a certain percent goes to muscle, a certain percent goes to fat
:: stores, a certain percent goes to metabolism, etc. Changing
:: partitioning is a common pursuit, using techniques ranging from
:: exercise and diet to prescription performance drugs.
::
::: Why would muscles be more sensitive to insulin than the rest of your
::: body?
::
:: Mostly that's genetic - each component of your body (it even varies
:: between muscles) has a certain sensitivity threshold. Most of the
:: effort "we" put into insulin sensitivity is to move the balance point
:: as much as we can towards muscle and away from fat.
::
:: There are a few factors that can influence partitioning by changing
:: insulin sensitivity for muscles, fat, and liver in different
:: (i.e. unequal) ways. Just the fact that muscle glycogen stores are
:: low will make muscles more insulin sensitive. That's why long-term
:: LCers will "bloat" by many pounds if they eat carbs - most of it goes
:: to muscle stores, and the water required to store it can add 5-10 lbs
:: very quickly. Liver storage alone can only account for about 1 lb.
::
:: Exercise can also make muscles more sensitive, both by depleting
:: glycogen stores even more, and by enzyme changes due to the exercise
:: itself causing cell stress (i.e. strength training does this more
:: than cardio).
::
:: Fish oil is a common dietary aid that increases muscle sensitivity
:: and reduces fat cell sensitivity. Various performance drugs also do
:: this, but with much more "interesting" side effects.
::
:: So, in a cyclic diet, you commonly two two phases: First, you LC and
:: low calorie diet, while doing high-rep medium-weight workouts to
:: fully deplete muscle glycogen, and stay there for a few days to
:: really boost insulin sensitivity. Then, one more workout to get the
:: enzymes going so muscles are REALLY sensitive and the liver is way
:: into ketosis, then WHAM eat a big load of carbs and the muscles just
:: suck them up so fast the liver and fat cells don't have time to
:: react.
::

Don't forget the protein!!!! 🙂

:: For more information, google for "CKD", "bodyopus", or "UD2", or see
:: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ for the "The Ketogenic Diet" and
:: "Ultimate Diet 2.0" books.

The Voice of Reason wrote:
:: "Jim Bard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:<[email hidden]>...
:::
::: You'll have to explain that to me, thanks. What is 'muscle
::: glycogen'? How is it different from glycogen in general? Why
::: would muscles be more sensitive to insulin than the rest of your
::: body?
:::
::: I'm a bit curious, here.
::
:: You'll have better luck going to misc.fitness.weights and asking Lyle
:: McDonald, he's the bloke who came up with the diet mentioned above.

He'd have better luck googling for it. Lyle has addressed this so many
times that it is doubtful he'll answer it again for Jim.

Rusty said:

Isn't this the same as a bodybuilders 'carb loading' phase but instead
of taking twelve weeks you LC aprox. 5-6 days then carb load for 48
hours?

It can be. You can carb load without LCing, just because of the
depletion from workouts.

I think what you're thinking of is a "refeed" which is different. A
refeed is designed to get glucose into *fat* cells, to force them to
produce leptin and a few other things that kick your metabolism up.

The cyclic diet's carb up happens to do that too, but it's mostly just
a secondary effect.

Roger Zoul said:

Don't forget the protein!!!! 🙂

Yeah, pretty much any other nutrient you eat during that phase is
going to get washed into the muscles in the flood of carbs. But, on
UD2 at least, protein intake is the same on all days - it doesn't
cycle.