Spoke Recommendations / Tensionmeters

Jesse Falsone said:

I'm going to attempt building my first set of wheels (the basic 32 3x, OPs, Shimano hubs). I figure I'll use diuble butted 14/15 spokes. Any recommendations on spoke brands? I was torn between DT and Wheelsmith.

Also, is it important for a neophyte to have a tensionmeter, and if so, is the less expensive Park (vs WHeelsmith) a good option?

Also consider Sapim Laser 14/17 for the front or DT Revolution 14/17 in front.
You should also consider them for the left rear as well.
I think that Park works OK, but so does your ear. You can't write down a number or have a calibrated value from your ear, but if you follow all the principles and steps in "the Bicycle Wheel" you will have very well built and reliable wheels.

Thanks Dave. I plan to buy the book and follow the building recommendations (so I don't have to ask too many stupid questions on this list). Spokes seem to be a topic of controversy, and preferences vary. A few months ago I had considered buying some wheels from Joe Young, but realized the price was a bit out of my league (or so my wife told me). Joe specifically mentioned that the Revolution has too much wind-up and produces a "wimpy wheel" because of inadequate tension. He preffered DT Swiss Super Comp triple butted, and made no mention of Wheelsmith.

I have a tuning fork at 440 hz which just happens to be the frequency corresponding to the "correct" tension according to an article I read on the subject. Perhaps I'll use that!

daveornee said:

Also consider Sapim Laser 14/17 for the front or DT Revolution 14/17 in
front.

Certainly not for a first attempt. Stick with standard double-butted
spokes. I use 14/15, but 15/16 work fine as well as long as you aren't
too heavy. 14/15 will be a little easier, again, since they are less
likely to wind up.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
_`\(,_ | conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw
(_)/ (_) |

quote='David L. Johnson'On Fri said:

Also consider Sapim Laser 14/17 for the front or DT Revolution 14/17 in
front.

Certainly not for a first attempt. Stick with standard double-butted
spokes. I use 14/15, but 15/16 work fine as well as long as you aren't
too heavy. 14/15 will be a little easier, again, since they are less
likely to wind up.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
_`\(,_ | conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw
(_)/ (_) |[/QUOTE]

All spokes wind up. You just need to know how to deal with it. Again, it's in the book. Or you can simply buy the wheels from a reputable builder. An example is Excel Sports @ URL:

<http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?page=8&description=Cirrus+Wheelset&vendorCode=EXCEL&major=1&minor=24>

$350 for DURA ACE and DT Revolution on all but the drive side and Open Pro rims.

Revolution spokes would not be a good idea on the drive side. They are more flexible, but they are not wimpy. Their flexibility is an asset to spreading the dynamic load.

Jesse Falsone <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'm going to attempt building my first set of wheels (the basic 32
3x, OPs, Shimano hubs). I figure I'll use diuble butted 14/15
spokes. Any recommendations on spoke brands? I was torn between DT
and Wheelsmith.

Whichever is cheaper, I have had good results with both. If price is
the same, I'd go with DTs.

Quoted message said:

Also, is it important for a neophyte to have a tensionmeter, and if
so, is the less expensive Park (vs WHeelsmith) a good option?

More important is to have a good book on building wheels (_The Bicycle
Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt comes to mind), and to look at Sheldon Brown's
wheelbuilding pages. I built many wheels without a tensiometer and
they were very durable. I do have one but use it only to ballpark
estimate the tension on one spoke next to the valve stem hole, to
which I compare the rest by plucking and listening to the tone. This
is much faster than farting around with the tensiometer.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I'm going to attempt building my first set of wheels (the basic 32 3x,
OPs, Shimano hubs). I figure I'll use diuble butted 14/15 spokes. Any
recommendations on spoke brands? I was torn between DT and Wheelsmith.

You can't go wrong with either brand.

Quoted message said:

Also, is it important for a neophyte to have a tensionmeter, and if so,
is the less expensive Park (vs WHeelsmith) a good option?

I bought a WS Tensionmeter a while back when it cost less than half the
current cost. It works well, but is nothing special. I don't see why
it costs so much. It is a pretty simple device. If I was buying now,
I would take a good hard look at the park model to see what was different
from the WS model.
--------------
Alex

daveornee said:

Jesse Falsone said:

I'm going to attempt building my first set of wheels (the basic 32 3x,
OPs, Shimano hubs). I figure I'll use diuble butted 14/15 spokes. Any
recommendations on spoke brands? I was torn between DT and Wheelsmith.

Also, is it important for a neophyte to have a tensionmeter, and if so,
is the less expensive Park (vs WHeelsmith) a good option?

Also consider Sapim Laser 14/17 for the front or DT Revolution 14/17 in
front.

if you're going for the really skinny spokes, get them 1 or 2mm shorter
than you might otherwise use. they stretch a lot more as tension
increases, so they tend to run out of thread - i think that's why a lot
of folks complain about wind-up.

Quoted message said:

You should also consider them for the left rear as well.
I think that Park works OK, but so does your ear. You can't write down
a number or have a calibrated value from your ear, but if you follow all
the principles and steps in "the Bicycle Wheel" you will have very well
built and reliable wheels.

David L. Johnson said:

daveornee said:

Also consider Sapim Laser 14/17 for the front or DT Revolution 14/17 in
front.

Certainly not for a first attempt. Stick with standard double-butted
spokes. I use 14/15, but 15/16 work fine as well as long as you aren't
too heavy. 14/15 will be a little easier, again, since they are less
likely to wind up.

Lighter gauge spokes are appropriate for the left side of the rear
wheel. Neither windup nor tension are too high for 17ga. spokes in
this context because of the gross amount of dish in Shimano 8/9/10
speed hubs. Lighter gauge spokes may better resist loosening because
they are more elastic.

Chalo Colina

Chalo said:

David L. Johnson said:

daveornee said:

Also consider Sapim Laser 14/17 for the front or DT Revolution 14/17 in
front.

Certainly not for a first attempt. Stick with standard double-butted
spokes. I use 14/15, but 15/16 work fine as well as long as you aren't
too heavy. 14/15 will be a little easier, again, since they are less
likely to wind up.

Lighter gauge spokes are appropriate for the left side of the rear
wheel. Neither windup nor tension are too high for 17ga. spokes in
this context because of the gross amount of dish in Shimano 8/9/10
speed hubs.

and campy hub dish is even more extreme!

Quoted message said:

Lighter gauge spokes may better resist loosening because
they are more elastic.

Chalo Colina

Jesse Falsone <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Thanks Dave. I plan to buy the book and follow the building
recommendations (so I don't have to ask too many stupid questions on
this list). Spokes seem to be a topic of controversy, and preferences
vary. A few months ago I had considered buying some wheels from Joe
Young, but realized the price was a bit out of my league (or so my wife
told me). Joe specifically mentioned that the Revolution has too much
wind-up and produces a "wimpy wheel" because of inadequate tension. He
preffered DT Swiss Super Comp triple butted, and made no mention of
Wheelsmith.

I have a tuning fork at 440 hz which just happens to be the frequency
corresponding to the "correct" tension according to an article I read
on the subject. Perhaps I'll use that!

The major quality spoke manufacturer's spokes all seem to be pretty
much the same. Don't worry about brand. Sapim is cheapest I think.
Another thing about Sapim spokes is that they're available in packs of
20 rather than Wheelsmith's 50 and DT's 72 or 100. This should make
them cheaper, but whether the shop you buy through takes this into
account is up to them. Get 2.0/1.7's or 1.8/1.6's.

Jesse Falsone <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Thanks Dave. I plan to buy the book and follow the building
recommendations (so I don't have to ask too many stupid questions on
this list). Spokes seem to be a topic of controversy, and preferences
vary. A few months ago I had considered buying some wheels from Joe
Young, but realized the price was a bit out of my league (or so my wife
told me). Joe specifically mentioned that the Revolution has too much
wind-up and produces a "wimpy wheel" because of inadequate tension. He
preffered DT Swiss Super Comp triple butted, and made no mention of
Wheelsmith.

I have a tuning fork at 440 hz which just happens to be the frequency
corresponding to the "correct" tension according to an article I read
on the subject. Perhaps I'll use that!

Oh, and the Park tensiometer is generally a better tool than the
Wheelsmith (easier to handle, gauge numbers are engraved rather than
on a sticker that always peels off). It also costs about half as much.

jesse-<< I have a tuning fork at 440 hz which just happens to be the frequency
corresponding to the "correct" tension according to an article I read
on the subject. Perhaps I'll use that! >><BR><BR>

But the tone will change with different spoke thickneeses, even tho the tension
of about 100 kgf is the same.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

bikenate-<< Another thing about Sapim spokes is that they're available in packs
of
20 rather than Wheelsmith's 50 and DT's 72 or 100. >><BR><BR>

I can buy any DT spoke in any number, like 1 293mm 14/15 spoke.

Mailorder does not a 'standard' make.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Jesse-<< I'm going to attempt building my first set of wheels (the basic 32 3x,
OPs, Shimano hubs). I figure I'll use diuble butted 14/15 spokes. Any
recommendations on spoke brands? I was torn between DT and Wheelsmith.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Either will work fine, and I think any tensionometer is a good idea. Either
will work for you, Park or WS.

Good for you, building a wheel, how we all started, with one wheel, mostly our
own.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

daveornee-<< Also consider Sapim Laser 14/17 for the front or DT Revolution
14/17 in
front. >><BR><BR>

Disagree..this is the gents first wheel I don't think the 'issues' with thin
center section spokes would serve him well on his first wheel.

Also thin left side spokes for the rear are ....silly...do nothing except make
the wheel more expensive.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

daveornee-<< Or you can simply buy the wheels from a reputable
builder. An example is Excel Sports @ URL >><BR><BR>

Interesting that you mention this place. We see many Excel wheels and most are
built pretty well...but they will build anything you ask, regardless of use,
which I disagree with. Things like a light rim, 28h 2 cross, Rev spokes, alloy
nipps, rear wheel for a heavy guy.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

OK, so the general concensus seems to be to err on the safe side by using 14/15 (I'm 195 pounds by the way) and any of the three brands will work fine.

Should I also get the spoke prep stuff, or do tight spokes and periodic maintenance negate the need for this?

the wheel is set round radially and laterally with very very low
torque: half a turn past nipples' bases set solid onto the rim seat.
then go for brandt's theorum: allspokes with equal tensions depite the
rim irregularities. wax/teflon the hub holes solid. lubes and keeps
dirt out. try linseed on the nipples/spoke threads

jim beam said:

if you're going for the really skinny spokes, get them 1 or 2mm
shorter than you might otherwise use. they stretch a lot more as
tension increases, so they tend to run out of thread - i think
that's why a lot of folks complain about wind-up.

Interesting point. I'd always assumed there was some stretch as
spokes were brought up to tension, but assumed it was a few
thousandths of an inch, not a couple of millimeters. It makes sense
of course that thinner spokes would stretch more than thicker spokes.
I assume spoke stretch has been measured or at least estimated.
Apparently there are formulae for this in _TBW_, but being more or
less math illiterate I hadn't looked at them. The spoke calculator
below apparently take this into account:

http://www.appliedthought.com/danny/Spoke/SpokeCalculator.html