GPS units advice

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful person
Steve <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

Hi all,

I get the impression that in this group (newbie to urw as of last week)
that the topic of GPS is, like many of UK's footpaths, well-worn :-)

However - taking a deep breath, and risking the groans of 'Not
again...' I shall plunge in with :

Does anyone have experience of the new colour Garmin devices : Legend C
and Vista C?

No, but I've been reading the reviews, comments, and discussions over on
news:sci.geo.satellite-nav, and news:alt.satellite.gps. You might want
to look at the excellent gps reviews (and everything else) site at
http://www.gpsinformation.net/

Quoted message said:

I'm new to GPS, and have been perusing the market but I have held off
buying one for the last few months, partly because I can't make my mind
up and partly the fact that colour ones were soon to come out, adding
further to my indecision.

So any GPS advice and experience gratefully received....

There's always something new coming out 'real soon'. Right now the
colo(u)r Etrex units seem to be the pick of the crop, unless you want to
go with the (older) 60-C instead.

The best approach is probably to start with 'what do you plan to do with
it', migrate via 'what software/mapping do you plan to use with it', and
arrive at your ideal GPS unit that way. I actually went for one with no
uploaded maps capability, since nobody seems to have any useful topo
maps of the areas I want to walk at the scales I want to use, and I can
just load tracks into a basic ETrex venture to show footpaths etc.

The next one will definitely be colo(u)r and have some mapping ability,
even if I have to writ/draw the damn maps myself.

Quoted message said:

TIA,

Steve

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.

The message <[email hidden]>
from Steve <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

get the impression that in this group (newbie to urw as of last week)
that the topic of GPS is, like many of UK's footpaths, well-worn :-)

It is, to such an extent that Dave F has proposed a separate GPS ng to
avoid burdening the rest of us with yet more discussion, but don't let
that put you off.

Quoted message said:

However - taking a deep breath, and risking the groans of 'Not again...'
I shall plunge in with :

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have experience of the new colour Garmin devices : Legend C
and Vista C?

I have just bought a Vista C to replace my Summit which I was less than
impressed with. I went for the Vista C rather than the 60CS at least
partly because I thought its operation would be similar to the Summit
and therefore easier to learn but in that I have been mistaken. Most of
the buttons are in the same place but they don't always do the same
thing. It is so new that I have yet to use it in anger but I am already
sure it is a considerable advance on the Summit (and at twice the price
it should be).

Quoted message said:

I'm new to GPS, and have been perusing the market but I have held off
buying one for the last few months, partly because I can't make my mind
up and partly the fact that colour ones were soon to come out, adding
further to my indecision.

Paul S will no doubt have told you how wonderful the 60CS is by the time
I post this message but ISTM that the only major disadvantage of the
Vista C vis-a-vis the 60CS is the poorer aerial which means you have to
carry the Vista somewhere with a really good view of the sky (shoulder
strap or rucksack lid) while the 60CS is both more costly and bulky. The
60CS is also heavier but I doubt whether the weight is a material
consideration. If you don't want a barometric altimeter then the the
versions without it (or the electronic compass) - Legend C or 60C would
be appreciably cheaper.

I bought my Vista from Tracklogs who had a good price. Their prices for
the 60 series were not so competitive.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 69 summits
New - 47 (Marilyns 13, Sweats 5, Outlying Fells 35)
Repeats - 22( Marilyns 7, Sweats 16, Wainwrights 16)

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from Steve <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

get the impression that in this group (newbie to urw as of last week)
that the topic of GPS is, like many of UK's footpaths, well-worn :-)

It is, to such an extent that Dave F has proposed a separate GPS ng to
avoid burdening the rest of us with yet more discussion, but don't let
that put you off.

Quoted message said:

However - taking a deep breath, and risking the groans of 'Not again...'
I shall plunge in with :

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have experience of the new colour Garmin devices : Legend C
and Vista C?

I have just bought a Vista C to replace my Summit which I was less than
impressed with. I went for the Vista C rather than the 60CS at least
partly because I thought its operation would be similar to the Summit
and therefore easier to learn but in that I have been mistaken. Most of
the buttons are in the same place but they don't always do the same
thing. It is so new that I have yet to use it in anger but I am already
sure it is a considerable advance on the Summit (and at twice the price
it should be).

And I got the Legend C about 3 months ago and have used it anger quite a
few times. In short I'm very impressed with it. I've found it very
easy to get to grips with, with most operations being pretty intuitive.

Battery life is v good - first set lasted me for 2 long weekend outings,
a few smaller ones and a few geocaching trips. I'd estimate about 40
hrs usage, but could be wrong. Unlike the 60C it powers itself from the
USB socket when attached to a PC which saves a lot of battery life,
especially if, like me, you get distracted and leave it on for ages.
(when you eventually turn the PC off it beeps and starts a 30 second
auto-turnoff).

The only thing I've had a problem with is its route following. It seems
very good at picking a random waypoint as its start. I've also found
that it does not always move onto the next waypoint in a route - I
assume I haven't walked close enough to the waypoint. I would expect
these are configurable things (anyone?) but as I don;t tend to follow
routes that way I only ever did it once to test it and couldn;t be
bothered to spend the time playing with it.

All in all, thoroughly recommend it.

Quoted message said:

I bought my Vista from Tracklogs who had a good price. Their prices for
the 60 series were not so competitive.

So did I. Cheapest price I could find, better than the pureplay GPS
websites and anything I could find via kelkoo or dealtime.

--
Darren

Roger said:

Paul S will no doubt have told you how wonderful the 60CS is by the
time I post this message but ISTM that the only major disadvantage of
the Vista C vis-a-vis the 60CS is the poorer aerial which means you
have to carry the Vista somewhere with a really good view of the sky
(shoulder strap or rucksack lid) while the 60CS is both more costly
and bulky.

The reason it's more bulky is because it has a larger screen! A very
desirable feature for a mapping GPS.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Darren G said:

The only thing I've had a problem with is its route following. It
seems very good at picking a random waypoint as its start.

No, it just picks the closest one. If your route starts and ends at the
same place it will usually consider that you've got to the end. Best to
keep the start and end points separate. Easy enough to sort out once
you start walking though.

Quoted message said:

I've also
found that it does not always move onto the next waypoint in a route
- I assume I haven't walked close enough to the waypoint.

Probably, so don't use 6 figure grid refs! ;-) Use an accurate grid
ref and make sure it's a point that you will walk through, like a
summit.

After passing a waypoint it will eventually realise and switch to the
next one once you've got close enough to it.

Quoted message said:

I would
expect these are configurable things (anyone?)

No, they aren't, you just need to understand how the GPS thinks.

Quoted message said:

but as I don;t tend to
follow routes that way I only ever did it once to test it and
couldn;t be bothered to spend the time playing with it.

I don't bother with routes very often either. Just put some waypoints
in and use manual GOTOs. If you are following a route and it messes up,
just use a manual GOTO to get to the next point and it should continue
fine after that.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:08:53 +0100, GSV Three Minds in a Can
<[email hidden]> wrote:

| Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful person
| Steve <[email hidden]> said
| >Hi all,
| >
| >I get the impression that in this group (newbie to urw as of last week)
| >that the topic of GPS is, like many of UK's footpaths, well-worn :-)
| >
| >However - taking a deep breath, and risking the groans of 'Not
| >again...' I shall plunge in with :
| >
| >Does anyone have experience of the new colour Garmin devices : Legend C
| >and Vista C?
|
| No, but I've been reading the reviews, comments, and discussions over on
| news:sci.geo.satellite-nav, and news:alt.satellite.gps.

US centric unfortunately

| You might want
| to look at the excellent gps reviews (and everything else) site at
| http://www.gpsinformation.net/

Commercial :-(

If you are interested in a uk gps group 2nd RFD for uk.rec.gps is being
discussed on uk.net.news.config
http://www.google.co.uk/groups?q=g:thl2262576854d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=rfd2-uk.rec.gps-20041010142516%243955%40gradwell.net&rnum=1
http://tinyurl.com/5kngz

--
Dave F

Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I don't bother with routes very often either. Just put some waypoints
in and use manual GOTOs. If you are following a route and it messes up,
just use a manual GOTO to get to the next point and it should continue
fine after that.

If I have a definite route in mind I find it quicker to plot a track in
Tracklogs and upload it to the GPS as a saved track.

Sometimes, when the choice of walk depends on weather etc, I upload a
selection of walks into saved tracks, (that's my Saturday job), and
choose the walk on the Sunday. I have a folder of planned walks in
Tracklogs, and also have plotted all my old walks for repeating,
interesting when it is many years since I first did them.

When I plot them all on the small scale maps of Yorks and Derbyshire it
looks like a spider's web!
--
Gordon

Dave Fawthrop said:

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:08:53 +0100, GSV Three Minds in a Can
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

| Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful person
| Steve <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

| >Does anyone have experience of the new colour Garmin devices : Legend C
| >and Vista C?

Quoted message said:

| No, but I've been reading the reviews, comments, and discussions over on
| news:sci.geo.satellite-nav, and news:alt.satellite.gps.

Quoted message said:

US centric unfortunately

In what ways are the performance of the new eTrex C devices affected
by being in the UK rather than the US? IMHO the only differences are
in the availability and quality of the maps, something which has
nothing to do with the quality of the receivers, and which changes
independently of the quality of the receivers as new maps become
available.

Quoted message said:

| You might want
| to look at the excellent gps reviews (and everything else) site at
| http://www.gpsinformation.net/

Quoted message said:

Commercial :-(

Since most people consider the great virtue of the gpsinformation web
site to be it's non-commercial and unbiassed nature, I'm interested in
what led you to that conclusion.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Gareth Babb said:

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:57:02 +0100, Roger <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Paul S will no doubt have told you how wonderful the 60CS is by the time
I post this message but ISTM that the only major disadvantage of the
Vista C vis-a-vis the 60CS is the poorer aerial which means you have to

Quoted message said:

The Legend C and Vista C do not have a serial port, only USB, and Garmin do
not provide any virtual serial port driver which chucks out NMEA data - it's
propietary Garmin protocol via USB only.

Which means that generic software which does moving map displays using
generic GPS protocols, i.e., NMEA, won't work with your USB-only
device.

Another disadvantage of USB is that like RS232 it is a master-slave
connection, but that unlike RS232, you can't simply switch from being
a master to a slave by swopping a few wires round in the cable, e.g.,
by using a simple cheap null modem. So if you have a PDA which is a
USB slave because it's meant to be slaved to a PC, and a GPSR which is
similarly a USB slave, you can't connect the two together.

So you could end up with a whole pocketful of USB devices, PDA, GPSR,
mobile phone, camera, etc., all of which won't talk to each other
without an intermediary laptop.

USB is very useful for fast map downloading. But losing RS232 and its
concomitant NMEA is a serious loss of very useful generality and
bodgeability.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Gordon said:

If I have a definite route in mind I find it quicker to plot a track
in Tracklogs and upload it to the GPS as a saved track.

I must try this sometime. Do you just follow it on the map screen or
use trackback to follow it?

Quoted message said:

Sometimes, when the choice of walk depends on weather etc, I upload a
selection of walks into saved tracks, (that's my Saturday job), and
choose the walk on the Sunday.

Wow! Proper planning! I really must try that too sometime.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sometimes, when the choice of walk depends on weather etc, I upload a
selection of walks into saved tracks, (that's my Saturday job), and
choose the walk on the Sunday.

Wow! Proper planning! I really must try that too sometime.

Planning?? Good grief, whatever next! *Shudder*
--
I try to be a good example to my children, but they just see me
as a dire warning.

Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Gordon said:

If I have a definite route in mind I find it quicker to plot a track
in Tracklogs and upload it to the GPS as a saved track.

I must try this sometime. Do you just follow it on the map screen or
use trackback to follow it?

Like you, I'm a map screen user, and don't trust the little arrow unless
it's on a GOTO Waypoint command.
I keep a close eye on the map anyway, and just follow the track.

You can choose which ones to display on screen at any time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sometimes, when the choice of walk depends on weather etc, I upload a
selection of walks into saved tracks, (that's my Saturday job), and
choose the walk on the Sunday.

Wow! Proper planning! I really must try that too sometime.

I don't do that in a familiar area, it's more fun to just wander around
with plenty of waypoints at key path junctions etc, we don't venture too
far off the beaten track these days.
--
Gordon

In article <[email hidden]>, pvs1
@wildwales.fsnet.co.uk says...

Quoted message said:

Darren G said:

The only thing I've had a problem with is its route following. It
seems very good at picking a random waypoint as its start.

No, it just picks the closest one. If your route starts and ends at the
same place it will usually consider that you've got to the end. Best to
keep the start and end points separate. Easy enough to sort out once
you start walking though.

I sort of came to that conclusion but as I normally just 'go to' I
didn't really care.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've also
found that it does not always move onto the next waypoint in a route
- I assume I haven't walked close enough to the waypoint.

Probably, so don't use 6 figure grid refs! ;-) Use an accurate grid
ref and make sure it's a point that you will walk through, like a
summit.

I didn't/don't! they were 10 figure ones from trackpoint. I think the
problem was that they were too accurate, and hence easy to miss the
*exact* spot.

Quoted message said:

After passing a waypoint it will eventually realise and switch to the
next one once you've got close enough to it.

I.e. once your over the halfway point. great, but doesn;t help you
finding that halfway point if it is constantly trying to take you back
to the last waypoint!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would
expect these are configurable things (anyone?)

No, they aren't, you just need to understand how the GPS thinks.

Thinks? It's a machine :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but as I don;t tend to
follow routes that way I only ever did it once to test it and
couldn;t be bothered to spend the time playing with it.

I don't bother with routes very often either. Just put some waypoints
in and use manual GOTOs. If you are following a route and it messes up,
just use a manual GOTO to get to the next point and it should continue
fine after that.

Same here: I just goto waypoints rather than use a route. Far more
flexible. So all the above to me is irrelevant, hence why I didn't
spend any time trying to think about it! It may help some others
though.

--
Darren

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

If I have a definite route in mind I find it quicker to plot a track in
Tracklogs and upload it to the GPS as a saved track.

me too, though normally only when group walking and we have planned a
formal route beforehand. Otherwise I will wander & goto waypoints.

Quoted message said:

Sometimes, when the choice of walk depends on weather etc, I upload a
selection of walks into saved tracks, (that's my Saturday job), and
choose the walk on the Sunday. I have a folder of planned walks in
Tracklogs, and also have plotted all my old walks for repeating,
interesting when it is many years since I first did them.

It's one of the reasons why I like tracklogs - it's so easy to build
hierarchies and catalogs of walks, as well as include the actual
tracklog you used as well as the planned routes.

Quoted message said:

When I plot them all on the small scale maps of Yorks and Derbyshire it
looks like a spider's web!

My Snowdonia looks similar!

--
Darren

In article <[email hidden]>, pvs1
@wildwales.fsnet.co.uk says...

Quoted message said:

Gordon said:

If I have a definite route in mind I find it quicker to plot a track
in Tracklogs and upload it to the GPS as a saved track.

I must try this sometime. Do you just follow it on the map screen or
use trackback to follow it?

Quoted message said:

Sometimes, when the choice of walk depends on weather etc, I upload a
selection of walks into saved tracks, (that's my Saturday job), and
choose the walk on the Sunday.

Wow! Proper planning! I really must try that too sometime.

If you ever see a bunch of people sat around a laptop on a Fri or Sat
night in the Swallow Falls Hotel, that'll be us doing the last minute
planning for the following day!
--
Darren

Darren G said:

If you ever see a bunch of people sat around a laptop on a Fri or Sat
night in the Swallow Falls Hotel, that'll be us doing the last minute
planning for the following day!

Ever wondered what a strange coincidence it is that a waterfall with
exactly the same name developed right next to that hotel? The owners
must have been chuffed!

By the way, is it a hotel, or a pub, or what?

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

In article <[email hidden]>, pvs1
@wildwales.fsnet.co.uk says...

Quoted message said:

Darren G said:

If you ever see a bunch of people sat around a laptop on a Fri or Sat
night in the Swallow Falls Hotel, that'll be us doing the last minute
planning for the following day!

Ever wondered what a strange coincidence it is that a waterfall with
exactly the same name developed right next to that hotel? The owners
must have been chuffed!

spooky isn't it.

Quoted message said:

By the way, is it a hotel, or a pub, or what?

It's a:

- hotel. never used, but apparently c. £20 if booked in person same
evening or about £70 in advance

- pub (used a lot, excellent Bass & pretty good post-walk bar food)

- YHA attached (never used yet, but may if the winter gets too harsh
I.e. less than -10)

- good, cheap camp site with decent showers, loos etc and generally used
by walkers rather than families AFAICT. I.e. full of lightweight 1 & 2
man tents. £4 pppn. (though some scum did nick a bottle of scotch
from my porch last time there. left all valuables and took my booze.
Grrrr!)

--
Darren

Darren G said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've also
found that it does not always move onto the next waypoint in a route
- I assume I haven't walked close enough to the waypoint.

Probably, so don't use 6 figure grid refs! ;-) Use an accurate grid
ref and make sure it's a point that you will walk through, like a
summit.

I didn't/don't! they were 10 figure ones from trackpoint. I think
the problem was that they were too accurate, and hence easy to miss
the *exact* spot.

I don't think it's that grid refs are too accurate, I think it's that
the maps you get the grid refs off are not accurate enough! With GPS
we've entered the age where we can determine our position more
accurately than the map. No-one ever noticed these inaccuracies before.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, they aren't, you just need to understand how the GPS thinks.

Thinks? It's a machine :-)

Exactly! It's totally logical (according to what's been programmed into
it) and totally stupid. Figure out how it's been programmed to act and
it becomes totally predictable.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

In article <[email hidden]>, pvs1
@wildwales.fsnet.co.uk says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I didn't/don't! they were 10 figure ones from trackpoint. I think
the problem was that they were too accurate, and hence easy to miss
the *exact* spot.

I don't think it's that grid refs are too accurate, I think it's that
the maps you get the grid refs off are not accurate enough! With GPS
we've entered the age where we can determine our position more
accurately than the map. No-one ever noticed these inaccuracies before.

fair point!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, they aren't, you just need to understand how the GPS thinks.

Thinks? It's a machine :-)

Exactly! It's totally logical (according to what's been programmed into
it) and totally stupid. Figure out how it's been programmed to act and
it becomes totally predictable.

ah, but there you are introducing the human factor again: the ability or
otherwise, of the coder (and an American one at that). Otherwise I
agree with your point ;-)

--
Darren