shoe advice

Jtiche said:

I'm looking for some free advice from the 'experts'. I used to run in Nike
Pegasus back about 15 years ago. Then they discontinued them and I went nuts
trying to keep up with what they had replaced them with. It seemed like Nike
would come out with a shoe I liked, make it for a year and discontinue it. I
was not impressed and said I'd never buy another pair of Nikes. I tried
Asics but found them very uncomfortable. I tried New Balance and have been
with them for several years. Lately though it seems I have foot problems
which I think would go away if I had more cushioning.

Why ? What sort of problems ?

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking of going back to the Nike Pegasus since they brought them back
out. A couple questions, when I look in RRS they say the pegasus is geared
toward the person with a small to medium frame with medium to high arches.

It means that it's a lighter cushioning shoe. The material might not be as
durable (they may use softer low durometer material), and it might not have as
much cushioning as a heavier shoe.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

your approach to shoes is flawed (this naming of brands and then painting with
a broad brush is not sound). since you've not tested out every pair of asics
running shoes....to say for you they are "very uncomfortable" is not valid (and
asics probably has the broadest catalog/models of running shoes w/varying
characterisitcs of anyone). i'm simply illustrating i don't think you have a
basis to rule out considering an asics shoe going forward.

you're basically starting from scratch in finding a shoe for you & based on
what you've said, go for a neutral stability shoe. this will likely have the
least level of risk in a starter shoe. Buy the best value available in a top
brand (excluding nike). though i believe a lw trainer, rrs has some ASICS® GEL
-Verdictâ„¢ DS II going for $40 (before all those rrs discounts). something
more built up?...they have Mizuno Wave Alchemy '03 going for $40 in 10-12 i
think. that's another fine starting point.

you have to discern a current reference point by model, not brand...and then
people can aid/guide you from there (as opposed to flying blind). don't
expect perfection, allow the shoe some break-in period, know you might need to
devise a insert device of a heel gel or whatever to get as close to perfection
as possible.

keep an open mind, you can return anything horrible on day one to rrs, and
explore. imo lots of people miss out on a great shoe for them in mizunos and
sauconys because their fixed in the more familiar...a new pair of shoes is like
a box of chocolates...

<< fixed in the more familiar...a new pair of shoes is like
a box of chocolates...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Godiva?

_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
<A
HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo">http://journal
s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A>

Godiva ~
God,
I think they're scrumptious!
Best,
Va.
_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
<A
HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo">http://journal
s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A>

"Jtiche" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm looking for some free advice from the 'experts'. I used to run in

Nike

Quoted message said:

Pegasus back about 15 years ago. Then they discontinued them and I went

nuts

Quoted message said:

trying to keep up with what they had replaced them with. It seemed like

Nike

Quoted message said:

would come out with a shoe I liked, make it for a year and discontinue it.

I

Quoted message said:

was not impressed and said I'd never buy another pair of Nikes. I tried

Asics

Quoted message said:

but found them very uncomfortable. I tried New Balance and have been with

them

Quoted message said:

for several years. Lately though it seems I have foot problems which I

think

Quoted message said:

would go away if I had more cushioning. I'm thinking of going back to the

Nike

Quoted message said:

Pegasus since they brought them back out. A couple questions, when I look

in

Quoted message said:

RRS they say the pegasus is geared toward the person with a small to

medium

Quoted message said:

frame with medium to high arches. So what do you consider a small to

medium

Quoted message said:

frame? I'm 6' tall and weigh right at 175 +/- lbs. Also maybe it isn't

the

Quoted message said:

shoes causing my discomfort, back when I wore the pegasus I was running a
couple miles three times a week, now I'm running between 5 and 6 miles

four

Quoted message said:

times a week. There are no running shoe stores within 100 miles so local
expertise is not available. Any suggestions and/or comments?

If you liked the Peg from 15 years ago I'd try the Nike Max Moto too. It's a
little closer to the old Peg than the new Peg is.

Jim Johnson

"Jim Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<uulcd.141672$He1.2204@attbi_s01>...

Quoted message said:

If you liked the Peg from 15 years ago I'd try the Nike Max Moto too. It's a
little closer to the old Peg than the new Peg is.

Jim Johnson

Or you can buy a REAL running shoe like Asics, NB, Adidas, or anyother
major brand. You'll spend an average of $40 less for a superior shoe,
that'll last longer, out perform, and prevent injurys better than
Nikes. The latest research indicated Nikes not only are cheaply made,
but also actually cause injurys.

-DF

just where can one find this so called research that nike shoes cause
injuries? u are the second person i have heard this from

Doug Freesepop said:

"Jim Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<uulcd.141672$He1.2204@attbi_s01>...

Quoted message said:

If you liked the Peg from 15 years ago I'd try the Nike Max Moto
too. It's a little closer to the old Peg than the new Peg is.

Jim Johnson

Or you can buy a REAL running shoe like Asics, NB, Adidas, or anyother
major brand. You'll spend an average of $40 less for a superior shoe,
that'll last longer, out perform, and prevent injurys better than
Nikes. The latest research indicated Nikes not only are cheaply made,
but also actually cause injurys.

-DF

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
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In article <[email hidden]>, Jtiche

Quoted message said:

I'm looking for some free advice from the 'experts'. I used to run in Nike
Pegasus back about 15 years ago. Then they discontinued them and I went nuts
trying to keep up with what they had replaced them with. It seemed like Nike
would come out with a shoe I liked, make it for a year and discontinue it. I
was not impressed and said I'd never buy another pair of Nikes. I tried Asics
but found them very uncomfortable. I tried New Balance and have been with
them
for several years. Lately though it seems I have foot problems which I think
would go away if I had more cushioning. I'm thinking of going back to the
Nike
Pegasus since they brought them back out. A couple questions, when I look in
RRS they say the pegasus is geared toward the person with a small to medium
frame with medium to high arches. So what do you consider a small to medium
frame? I'm 6' tall and weigh right at 175 +/- lbs. Also maybe it isn't the
shoes causing my discomfort, back when I wore the pegasus I was running a
couple miles three times a week, now I'm running between 5 and 6 miles four
times a week. There are no running shoe stores within 100 miles so local
expertise is not available. Any suggestions and/or comments?

From a few years ago. A number of researchers have spoken about the
thickness of the running shoe causing a good deal of the problems that
runners experience.

If you check out Nike Free: "Barefoot Trianing: coaches are into it.
Runners are into it. Athletes are into it. So we did some research.
And the sutides suggested taht barefoot runners develop stronger
feet.?"

"NATURAL MOTION BUILDS STRENGTH. STRENGTH MEANS SPEED. Nike Free is
different. Y ou can't just put these on and drun. You'll need to
build your muscles u first. Because Nike Free will take some getting
used to. After all, we're re-introducing you to your feet" Check out
www.nike.com/nikefree

It's interesting that researchers like S. Robbins and others have been
talking for years about the injuries caused by overly cushioned shoes.
It looks like a number of the running shoe companies are either
listening or doing what they need to do to do what they do for a
living: selling shoes.

While looking for Robbins I came across a thread that started with
Shoes on the Cover of Fixx's book and rapidly digresssed to running
form: http://www.cyclingforums.com/archive/index.php/t-109060 . It
was interesting reading the dialogue with with Donovan, Robert G and
others sharing.

Ozzie

-Alan wrote:

-Had some pain in the ball of my right foot. My podiatrist told me to
-find a shoe that is very rigid in the forefoot. I am currently
running
-in Mizuno Wave Mercuries. They work great for my running machanics
but
-are a little soft in the forefoot for me. Any recommendations? Thanks!
-Alan.

"Cybernotes" <[email hidden]>responded:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

find a shoe that is very rigid in the forefoot. >Any recommendations?

You want stiff and rigid shoes?..Saucony Grid Web.
i just got the saucony grid web Spring '00 from rrs for $50. i think it's
been discontinued too. i consider the shoe to be very rigid and stiff in
the forefoot and i'm not crazy about the shoe for that reason....in fact i
almost returned them as i find them to be stiff and rigid in all areas. i'm
disappointed in the shoe as it's not at all what rrs characterized imo (a
cushion shoe). puuuulllleeeeezzzzzzzeeeee. I thought I was getting
Sacony's version of Brooks Trance shoes....(the mesh, the
cushion...etc....not even close!....Trances are my every day roadway
favorite trainer). I'm going to give these Saucony's a chance
though.....break'em in and see if I like'em any more.....

Andrew

Ozzie added:

Alan I'd look first to what is the pain in the right foot. Some
questions I'd be asking before I told anyone to get a shoe that is
"very rigid in the forefoot."

Do you land on the back of the heel of the shoe? That would cause the
ball of the foot to slap down something akin to the wire piece on a
mouse trap as it slaps shut. Do that a few thousand times over a
period of time and the ball of the foot would be hurtning.

Do you lift your knees or the entire body with each step you take? If
you were to run or walk a cross a wooden floor, the people around can
hear the clomp/clomp and can feel the vibrations as you hit the floor
with your running or walking foot. This vertical lift and coming back
down can cause the pain you're experiencing in the ball of the foot.

Are you splay footed? \ / This causes the posterior tibialis to be
stretched and the arch to start to drop inward so that after years of
this the arch is no longer supported by the posterior tibialis. When
this happens the stress is put upon the plantar fascia which is a
sheath that inserts into the metatarsals and has its origin on the
front of the calcaneus. The plantar fascia is not made take the stress
when the three muscles that maintain the arch do not do their job
because of faulty mechanics often caused by the way we run.

These muscles that support the medial side of the foot and assist in
maintaining the arch so that the plantar fascia is stressed
unnecessarily are the tibialis anterior, the tibialis posterior and the
flexor hallicis longus.

The anterior tibialis inserts on the inner edge of the foot, about two
inches from the big foot. The posterior tibialis into the medial
tarsal and metatarsal bone-that right under the ball of the foot. The
flexor hallicis inserts into the last phalanx of your big toe and its
tendon----yep goes right along the ball of the big toe.

So know a few piece of info by asking some questions, you could figure
out what might be causing some of your discomfort. And for me that
has nothing to do with the diagnosis of getting a very rigid shoe in
the forefoot.

But I'm thinking that maybe you missed telling us something that the
podiatrist told you about how your walk or run that is causing this
problem.

There is a good deal of research that most of us will never read. This
research raises questions about the efficacy of the high cushioned/
impact reducing running shoes that are called high technology.

It easier to sell a shoe and more profitable for all vested interests,
than it is to teach someone how to run with proper form and style and
be as graceful as a gazelle. It's something like: Give a man a fish
and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a
lifetime.

Unnecessary sarcastic aside: But what the hey, who has time to think
about form and style. Just give me some good shoes that make the
problem go away and send me on my way so I can run my marathon for
charity. So what if half of us or more get injured along the way. Hey
it was worth the experience even though I can't run anymore. It's was
good cause.

The shoes are the most important part of running. Hmmmm, I know I've
never said that, and neither have a lot of the gang at rec.running.
And many of those who did espouse that, have changed their tune after
thinking about running and doing it with proper form and style. End of
unnecessary aside.

MARTI, B. "Relationships Between Running Injuries and Running Shoes ­
Results of a Study of 5,000 Participants of a 16-km Run ­ The May 1984
Berne ŒGrand Prix¹". In: Segesser B., Pforringer W., eds. The shoe
in sport. Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1989: 256-265.

RAO, U.B., JOSEPH, B. "The Influence of Footwear on the Prevalence of
Flat Foot, a Survey of 2300 Children". The Journal of Bone and Joint
Surgery, July 1992, Vol 74-B; No. 4, 525-527.

ROBBINS, S.E., GOUW, G.J. "Athletic Footwear and Chronic Overloading A
Brief Review". Sports Medicine 1990, 9 (2): 76-85.

ROBBINS, S.E., GOUW, G.J. "Athletic footwear: unsafe due to perceptual
illusions". Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 1991, Vol 23,
No2, 217-224.

ROBBINS, S.E., GOUW, G.J., HANNA, A.M. "Running-related injury
prevention through innate impact-moderating behaviour". Medicine and
Science in Sports and Exercise. 1989, Vol 21, No2, 130-139.

ROBBINS, S., HANNA, A.M. "Running- related injury prevention through
barefoot adaptations". Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise.
1987, Vol 19, No 2, 148-156. American College of Sports Medicine©.

ROBBINS, HANNA, A., JONES, L.A. "Sensory Attenuation Induced by Modern
Athletic Footwear". Journal of Testing and Evaluation. 1988, Vol 16,
412-416. American Society for Test and Materials©.

ROBBINS, S., WAKED, E. "Foot Position Awareness: The Effect of
Footwear on Instability, Excessive Impact, and Ankle Spraining".
Critical Reviews in Physical and Rehabilitation Medicine, 1997, 9
(1):53-74.

ROBBINS, S., WAKED, E. "Hazard of deceptive advertising of athletic
footwear". Br. J. Sports Med 1997; 31:299-303.

ROBBINS, S., WAKED, E., GOUW, G.J. McCLARAN, J. "Athletic footwear
affects balance in men". British Journal of Sports Medicine 1994;
28(2) 117-123.

There's a small group of us here at rec.running and also numerous
people I've trained at the San Diego Marathon Clinic who will only run
in training flats, or racing flats or aquasocks. It is an atavistic
mentality that the less on the bottom of the shoe, the better. And from
the research I've read, it makes sense.

Isn't it interesting that Abebe Bakila won the 1960 Olympic Marathon
through the streets of Rome in 2:16. He took his shoes off after a
mile or two and ran the rest of the way barefoot because the shoes were
hurting his feet. Tarahamara Indian wins the Leadville 100 Miler
wearing sandals he made the day before out of tire tred. He said he
liked American used tires better because they still had tred on them
compared to the tires he cut his sandals out of in Mexico.

Anyway, Alan, back to the ball of your foot. If you want to learn
about your running body, here's a resource that I've used since it
first came out. It's a reference book for your running library that you
will use for years to come. If you want to purchase a copy that I still
use as a guide to answering questions and understanding running
problems, send $15 which covers the price of the book and
shipping/handling.

The book is:
Hidden Causes of Injury, Prevention And Correction, for Running
Athletes and
Joggers
by John Jesse, 1977.

Make out the $20 check or money order to:
IAM or Int'l Assoc. of Marathoners
c/o Ozzie Gontang
2903 29th Street
San Diego, CA 92104

John Jesse was a teammate at USC with Payton Jordon who was the US
Olympic
head track and field coach in 1968. "John wrote this book for you and
me, so
that we could understand through popular language, and with scientific
and
technical language kept to a minimum but using diagrams, illustrations
or
short glossaries so we the laymen could understand should we want to
delve
deeper." I believe that Payton this past year at the Senior Olympics or
Senior Worlds set a world record for the 400M for 80 year olds.