Speedwork year round?

Tony said:

Do you experienced rec.runners recommend some form of year round speedwork,
or just base miles in the off-season. In the past I've always done a
fartlek every once in a while just to keep things interesting, but usually
nothing higher than tempo pace in the off season. Is a hard vO2max workout
or a short race every few weeks a good idea, or is it better just to relax
and put in the miles?

Depends on what you mean by "off season". I have about 12 weeks a year of just
doing milage. I may also do fartlek or strides during that period (just for
fun -- no scheduling), but no structured speed work. I think if you're racing
or doing a hard speed workout every couple of weeks, it's not really a
"base period" any more.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

Do you experienced rec.runners recommend some form of year round

speedwork,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or just base miles in the off-season. In the past I've always done a
fartlek every once in a while just to keep things interesting, but

usually

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nothing higher than tempo pace in the off season. Is a hard vO2max

workout

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or a short race every few weeks a good idea, or is it better just to

relax

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and put in the miles?

Depends on what you mean by "off season". I have about 12 weeks a year of

just

Quoted message said:

doing milage. I may also do fartlek or strides during that period (just for
fun -- no scheduling), but no structured speed work. I think if you're

racing

Quoted message said:

or doing a hard speed workout every couple of weeks, it's not really a
"base period" any more.

By "off season" I mean about 4 months when I don't have any races planned
(although Doug has invited me to do the hat run in early spring). So mid
Nov to mid March would be my off season, so its just a little longer than
your 12 weeks. I'm wondering if there's a long term benefit to doing VO2max
type workouts consistently, but maybe slightly less frequently during the
off season.

- Tony

Tony said:

By "off season" I mean about 4 months when I don't have any races planned
(although Doug has invited me to do the hat run in early spring). So mid
Nov to mid March would be my off season, so its just a little longer than
your 12 weeks. I'm wondering if there's a long term benefit to doing VO2max
type workouts consistently, but maybe slightly less frequently during the
off season.

Based on what I've seen from people who've been injured, you can take up to
12 weeks off any training at all and still come back fairly quickly. I'd
recommend 6-8 weeks of base training and some lighter speed work the other
4-6 (fartlek, hills, tempo runs)

So I'd be surprised if there's a benefit that's so good that it trumps the
benefits of taking a rest or taking it easy for a little while.

I've found that I'm able to put in reasonable race performances off nothing
but base training, though it does seem surprising.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

snip<

Based on what I've seen from people who've been injured, you can take up to
12 weeks off any training at all and still come back fairly quickly. I'd
recommend 6-8 weeks of base training and some lighter speed work the other
4-6 (fartlek, hills, tempo runs)

So I'd be surprised if there's a benefit that's so good that it trumps the
benefits of taking a rest or taking it easy for a little while.

I've found that I'm able to put in reasonable race performances off nothing
but base training, though it does seem surprising.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi

Thanks for your take on it. I've never done much formal speedwork or V02
workouts, but was reading recently about the benefits of the V02 workout.

Of course I've got to build my base above everything else. I've enjoyed the
occasional blast of speed in the past to keep the legs fresh, but its never
been a hard push like a V02 workout. Aside from a good month to 6 weeks
off, I'm just wondering if a healthy V02 workout every 2 weeks or so in the
the other off season months is something others do. Probably I'll just
continue to do the occasional speed in fartleks, but maybe push it a bit
harder sometimes as its too easy for me to do light tempo only in pushes
when doing fartlek.

- Tony

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<NQG8d.308$Ua.271@trndny05>...

Quoted message said:

Do you experienced rec.runners recommend some form of year round speedwork,
or just base miles in the off-season. In the past I've always done a
fartlek every once in a while just to keep things interesting, but usually
nothing higher than tempo pace in the off season. Is a hard vO2max workout
or a short race every few weeks a good idea, or is it better just to relax
and put in the miles?

- Tony

Sounds like you're doing the right thing. I would run a hard workout
when I felt like it in the winter. I'm not a one to race often so I
don't do many races January through March or so. But that is just me,
no reason why anybody else shouldn't. As I like to think "I don't want
to get any slow on me." So I run hard to keep myself honest.

At the very least I keep in mind that I'll be at the track and toeing
the line in the spring and don't want to have a great shock getting
back into shape.

Andy

Tony said:

Thanks for your take on it. I've never done much formal speedwork or V02
workouts, but was reading recently about the benefits of the V02 workout.

They come and go fairly quickly, or at least that's the impression I have.

Quoted message said:

Of course I've got to build my base above everything else. I've enjoyed the
occasional blast of speed in the past to keep the legs fresh, but its never
been a hard push like a V02 workout. Aside from a good month to 6 weeks
off, I'm just wondering if a healthy V02 workout every 2 weeks or so in the
the other off season months is something others do.

Generally not. A VO2 workout is *hard*. The pros generally don't do hard speed
work in "off season months".

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Tony' qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com said:

Do you experienced rec.runners recommend some form of year round speedwork,
or just base miles in the off-season.

In weeks with no formal speedwork required, I try to do a vVO2max
maintenance workout (generally a "Billat" 30"/30" or 200m/100) all year
round, except the week after races.

steve common wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tony' qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com said:

Do you experienced rec.runners recommend some form of year round

speedwork,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or just base miles in the off-season.

In weeks with no formal speedwork required, I try to do a vVO2max
maintenance workout (generally a "Billat" 30"/30" or 200m/100) all year
round, except the week after races.

The ones I've started to do are reps of 3' @ VO2max pace (basically the pace
you could hold all-out for about 6'😉 with 3' rests. I'm using the HRM to
help hold the pace, which for me is HR 175-180 bpm, my AT being about 170.
This week I stopped at 3 reps, but I'll see if I can build to 5 reps or so.

How many of the "Billat"s do you do? That seems more like a sprint workout
than a VO2. Also, I'm not sure my legs are ready for that kind of
explosiveness. It's only recently I feel solid trying these harder
workouts, which seem to stress the body in far different ways than long runs
or tempo work.

- Tony

<< How many of the "Billat"s do >>

....*4 pliees, each, half left, half right ~
One set deep, the other not.

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<<
....*4 pliees, each, half left, half right ~
One set deep, the other not. >>

A diagonal view holds me captive,
But only for this round ~
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Half-turn back, for the second-half.

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"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

By "off season" I mean about 4 months when I don't have any races
planned
(although Doug has invited me to do the hat run in early spring). So
mid
Nov to mid March would be my off season, so its just a little longer
than
your 12 weeks. I'm wondering if there's a long term benefit to doing
VO2max
type workouts consistently, but maybe slightly less frequently during
the
off season.

Based on what I've seen from people who've been injured, you can take
up to
12 weeks off any training at all and still come back fairly quickly.
I'd
recommend 6-8 weeks of base training and some lighter speed work the
other
4-6 (fartlek, hills, tempo runs)

So I'd be surprised if there's a benefit that's so good that it trumps
the
benefits of taking a rest or taking it easy for a little while.

Good stuff. Rest cycles is at the base of periodization and keeps us
uninjured. If you try to keep up max vo2 type speed you will plateau and
then digress . You can only hold that edge for a short time. As you
know I tend to drop back in the winter to raw base and hills. Some time
in February I will add in some fartleks during the week and then do HAT
and Bull Run.

Quoted message said:

I've found that I'm able to put in reasonable race performances off
nothing
but base training, though it does seem surprising.

Not really. A lot of people make great speeds gains off just base or
base and power without formal speed. It's the impatient people that are
directed or encouraged to add speed too early on that end up injured.
FWIW, 90% of my speed, I know it's not much, comes from pure power
running.

-DougF

Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

Thanks for your take on it. I've never done much formal speedwork or V02
workouts, but was reading recently about the benefits of the V02 workout.

They come and go fairly quickly, or at least that's the impression I have.

So that would mean it's done for peaking and can't be developed long-term.
Interesting.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of course I've got to build my base above everything else. I've enjoyed

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

occasional blast of speed in the past to keep the legs fresh, but its

never

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

been a hard push like a V02 workout. Aside from a good month to 6 weeks
off, I'm just wondering if a healthy V02 workout every 2 weeks or so in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the other off season months is something others do.

Generally not. A VO2 workout is *hard*. The pros generally don't do hard

speed

Quoted message said:

work in "off season months".

Thanks. I've read that normally speedwork should be limited to a few months
at most. I'm sure what you and Doug say about taking time off then adding
in fartlek, ect for several weeks before doing more is the best approach.

As I've read more running books and articles this year I see more emphasis
on VO2 workouts than LT workouts. In the cycling books I've read LT seems
to be emphasized more, and that's what I have more experience with. As Doug
might point out, for ultras the long run is by far the most important thing,
but I'm interested in shorter runs as well.

I know how effective LT training is: one summer I did nothing but cycling,
with lots of hill LT repeats and then after a month of transition to
running, I surprised my orienteering buddies with my performance - there was
a great deal of carry-over from the cycling.

- Tony

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Tony said:

Thanks. I've read that normally speedwork should be limited to a few months
at most. I'm sure what you and Doug say about taking time off then adding
in fartlek, ect for several weeks before doing more is the best approach.

As I've read more running books and articles this year I see more emphasis
on VO2 workouts than LT workouts. In the cycling books I've read LT seems
to be emphasized more, and that's what I have more experience with. As Doug
might point out, for ultras the long run is by far the most important thing,
but I'm interested in shorter runs as well.

Yes, for 5k and 10k races, VO2 is of primary importance. This is what I place
the most emphasis on in my training. For marathon/half marathon training, LT
work is probably more important -- it's closer to race pace, and hence probably
more specific to the demands of the race. These races require you to hold a
fast pace for a long time, which is a different ball game to being able to
bang out a few fast miles. I think it's possible for faster runners (say sub 90
half) to run a pretty good half marathon time just off good milage and VO2
work, but probably harder to do the same for a marathon. Even for someone who
wanted to focus on half-marathons, I'd recommend LT work over VO2 work because
it's lower intensity, hence less stressful in some ways.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Tony' qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com said:

The ones I've started to do are reps of 3' @ VO2max pace (basically the pace
you could hold all-out for about 6'😉 with 3' rests.

These are the hard ones which Billat also proposes. Seemingly they are
"better" cos they also improve lactate tolerance etc. I hate them -
being a wuss, basically - and only do 'em when I'm feeling particularly
invincible. I find I need 72 hours recovery after the 3'/3's before
another hard session, whereas the 30/30s only require 36-48hrs
(depending on how many I did). YMMV of course.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0896.htm

Quoted message said:

How many of the "Billat"s do you do? That seems more like a sprint workout
than a VO2. Also, I'm not sure my legs are ready for that kind of
explosiveness.

I do 10 to 15. Billat says do as many as you can til you can no longer
hold vVO2max (VO2max pace if you prefer). These are run at exactly the
same pace as your 3' reps, so you can see that they are considerably
"easier", even though I wouldn't say they are a doddle.

Typically, if you do 14 say, that's neigh on 10 minutes at VO2max, given
that you in fact stay at VO2max (use of oxygen, not pace) even during
the trotted rests (at half VO2max pace), after the first handful of
reps.