race pacing

dave d said:

I just did a 15K today. I'd been training more and differently than
usual (longer, slower long runs + one speed day every other week), so
didn't know how to set a good pace. I decided to go mostly by feel
and watch the HRM. My max recorded HR lately is 192 BPM, and that's
probably pretty close to my real max. At a recent 5K I held 180 BPM,
held fairly even splits, and felt spent at the end, so that was
probably about right.

If you felt that the 5K was a pretty accurate race (certified and flat),
then I would have taken that time to see what my expected 15K time should
be. There are several online calculators that will do this for you. My
favorite is at http://www.mcmillanrunning.com (click on the racing link).
If you've been training with emphasis on lactate threshold running (tempo
runs, cruise intervals), then you should be able to pace yourself fairly
closely to what that site tells you. For example, if you ran the 5k in
20:00, the you should be able to run a 15k in 1:04:23 or a 6:54 per mile
pace.

Quoted message said:

The course is flat and the weather was cool (for this time of year,
about 75 degrees). It started raining about half way through, which
felt great. I started at a pace that felt right (whatever that means)
and noted a HR after the first mile of 160. I continued at what felt
like constant effort until about mile 6, during which time my HR
ramped very steadily up to about 170. I pushed a little more then,
consciously trying to hold about 172 BPM. This was the only time I
let the HRM influence my running, because I caught myself gathering
wool a few times and my HR (and, I assume, my pace) dropped a bit.
The only cue was the HRM, but I corrected pretty quickly. At Mile 8
I started pushing pretty hard, attempting to hold 180 until the final
turn and finishing at 185 BPM. Interestingly, my splits ended up
pretty even for the first 8 miles. I was surprised to see that the
last 1.3 miles was at a pace 15 seconds slower than average, despite
the burst in effort. Maybe that means that I paced it about right and
was running out of gas, although I felt good at the end. If it hadn't
been for the unperceived pace drop at the end I'd say I was too
conservative. As it is it's hard to say.

Pacing advice, cues other than HR, or stories of pacing plans gone
bad, anyone?

15k race pace is right around your lactate threshold pace. LT pace is
around 80-90% of your max heart rate or 76-88% of your heart rate
reserve. Assuming your MHR is indeed 192 BPM (that's a big assumption),
your LT pace is around 154 - 173 BPM. Your heart rate reserve would make
it more accurate, but I dont know your resting pulse.

Were you not tracking your pace based on the mile markers? If you're not
used to racing and there's nobody to pace off of, it is difficult to know
if you're going the correct speed. It would be helpful to do enough
traing runs at LT pace to get an idea of what that confort level feels
like. Normally you aren't going to be doing 10 mile tempo runs, so just
know that LT pace isn't going to feel very good as you approach the 1
hour mark. This is probably the reason that you slowed down.

Phil M.

--
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make
them all yourself." ­Martin Vanbee

dave d said:

I just did a 15K today. I'd been training more and differently than usual
(longer, slower long runs + one speed day every other week), so didn't know
how to set a good pace. I decided to go mostly by feel and watch the HRM.
My max recorded HR lately is 192 BPM, and that's probably pretty close to my
real max. At a recent 5K I held 180 BPM, held fairly even splits, and felt
spent at the end, so that was probably about right.

Your first mistake is using a heart rate monitor for pacing. Just get out
there and run! If you run a 5k to the best of your ability, your heart rate
should be close to your max at the end of the race (and probably the last 800m
or so)

Quoted message said:

myself gathering wool a few times and my HR (and, I assume, my pace) dropped
a bit. The only cue was the HRM, but I corrected pretty quickly. At Mile 8
I started pushing pretty hard, attempting to hold 180 until the final turn
and finishing at 185 BPM. Interestingly, my splits ended up pretty even for
the first 8 miles. I was surprised to see that the last 1.3 miles was at a
pace 15 seconds slower than average, despite the burst in effort. Maybe
that means that I paced it about right and was running out of gas, although
I felt good at the end. If it hadn't been for the unperceived pace drop at
the end I'd say I was too conservative. As it is it's hard to say.

Sounds about right to me -- except you probably would have pushed it harder
at the end (again, close to max) if you weren't too busy looking at your heart
rate monitor.

Quoted message said:

Pacing advice, cues other than HR, or stories of pacing plans gone bad,
anyone?

It boils down to trial and error, and sharpening your racing instincts.
Typically, even the most intelligent beginner will have problems with pacing
on his/her first race. There's not much that one can do about this except to
learn from the experience. Experienced runners coming back from layoffs also
may have difficulties with pacing (because they don't know what their pace
should be) The races where I had the most trouble with pacing (besides my first
race) were after long layoffs.

One thing that may help is a good race prediction table. For example, the Jack
Daniels predictor works well between 5k and half marathon
http://www.panix.com/~elflord/predict.html
The WAVA table also works quite well
http://www.panix.com/~elflord/wava.html
as do the Gardner/Purdy tables.

These will at least give you a ballpark estimate of what you can reasonably
expect based on prior performances.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
:

Quoted message said:

If you felt that the 5K was a pretty accurate race (certified and flat),
then I would have taken that time to see what my expected 15K time should
be. There are several online calculators that will do this for you. My
favorite is at http://www.mcmillanrunning.com (click on the racing link).
If you've been training with emphasis on lactate threshold running (tempo
runs, cruise intervals), then you should be able to pace yourself fairly
closely to what that site tells you. For example, if you ran the 5k in
20:00, the you should be able to run a 15k in 1:04:23 or a 6:54 per mile
pace.

I've found in the past that those predictions based on short race times are
optimistic in my case for longer races, probably because I hadn't been
running enough miles to get endurance to the point where the factors that
those predictions assume are the limiting factors. (extra credit: diagram
that last sentence) This time, however, the tables look right on. The one
at http://www.mcmillanrunning.com was really close (5K@21:37 -> 15K@1:09:35,
vs. my 1:11:02). The table in the Daniels book is the same. This suggests
that I could have hit it just a little harder, and I believe it based on how
I feel now, several hours later.

:

Quoted message said:

15k race pace is right around your lactate threshold pace. LT pace is
around 80-90% of your max heart rate or 76-88% of your heart rate
reserve. Assuming your MHR is indeed 192 BPM (that's a big assumption),
your LT pace is around 154 - 173 BPM. Your heart rate reserve would make
it more accurate, but I dont know your resting pulse.

52 rest, 192 max -> 158-172. I do threshold runs at about 170 (+5 to 10 if
it's hot) but felt that I would have blown up if I'd hit this level of
effort too early. Maybe I was a little too conservative. I was rested, it
was cool, and I know that HR isn't the best indicator during a race. I have
painful memories of going out too fast, and my pace was so much faster than
it's been in previous races that I wimped out a bit.

Quoted message said:

Were you not tracking your pace based on the mile markers? If you're not
used to racing and there's nobody to pace off of, it is difficult to know
if you're going the correct speed.

Yes, 7:45, 7:31, 7:54 , 7:41, 7:42, 7:42, 7:28, 7:37, and 9:43 for the last
1.32. Now that I look at it again the time for the last 1.32 puts the pace
at 7:36, just under my average pace of 7:38. Bad calculations in last post,
sorry. So a sudden push for the last bit was just enough to overcome
fatigue that was just starting to set in. Probably coulda pushed harder
though.

Quoted message said:

It would be helpful to do enough
traing runs at LT pace to get an idea of what that confort level feels
like.

Lately I've been doing 1 mile easy, 4 hard (approx 170 BPM, + 5 or 10 BPM if
it's hot), 1 easy on some fast days. Other fast days are more like
intervals. I'll also usually throw in a mile or so hard followed by one
easy at the end of long (10-15 mile) runs.

Maybe I'll try some long, fast "test to destruction" runs to see just how
long I can do my assumed LT pace. Sometimes my schedule is such that I know
I won't be able to run for the better part of a week, so I guess it makes
sense to do a hard run just before the break in place of a tuning race.
I've hit the wall a few times on long, solo trail runs, and it's very
satisfying is a sick kind of way. After a week or so of recovery,
everything else seems easy for a while. It's not demoralizing at all the
way blowing up at a marathon is.

Quoted message said:

--
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make
them all yourself." ­Martin Vanbee

That's the plan.

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2004-09-06, dave d <[email hidden]> wrote:

Just to check back. I suffered though my first and probably last, 10k
ROAD race of the year. My goal was 44 minutes. I wish I could offer up
my splits but forgot my watch. There was a person at the 1 mile yelling
times and ran mile one in 6:45. The next time was the finish clock and
42:50 which is sub 7. I just knew my only speed workout of 4x3 minutes
with a one minute jog all at an unknown pace would get me in midseason
form. 😉 Not even a remote chance if iron. Most of age group buddies
are doing weekly track workouts and racing short every other week. Who
knows, maybe when I'm 60 I'll hit the track and try to break 40.....nah,
ovals suck, breathing hard sucks.

It was a beautiful cool morning and I broke out my 12 year old racing
flats which I'm sure saved me a second or two. Beer and food to follow -
can't get any better then that!

-DougF

Quoted message said:

I suffered though my first and probably last, 10k
ROAD race of the year. My goal was 44 minutes.

ROTFLMFAO! No wonder you do ultras, it's all you CAN do! Wuss...

Quoted message said:

I wish I could offer up
my splits but forgot my watch.

Senility. What kind of idiot goes to a race with no watch? Did you wear shorts?

Quoted message said:

breathing hard sucks.

Walked up a flight of stairs old man?

"TheBillRodgerz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suffered though my first and probably last, 10k
ROAD race of the year. My goal was 44 minutes.

ROTFLMFAO! No wonder you do ultras, it's all you CAN do! Wuss...

I prefer the corallary, anyone can run 5 an 10k's can you a 50 or 100 at
any pace? 😉

Quoted message said:

Senility. What kind of idiot goes to a race with no watch?

Someone that didn't give a [censored] about monitoring splits. I ran what I
could and I was pleased with my constant effort. The watch would have
done nothing. to help and if the mile markers are off, as they are in
many races, you get mentally screwed up and run stupid.

Quoted message said:

Did you wear shorts?

Yup, cute red ones.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

breathing hard sucks.

Walked up a flight of stairs old man?

I would love to take you on one of my training runs. 🙂 When I run hills
I can talk comfortably. Wanna bet you couldn't even grunt and wish you
had a few more openings to breathe through? Nah, I know the answer, you
are all talk and no walk. A person with a keyboard and no balls.A true
lesson in immaturity. Do you wear a bone around your neck so the dogs
will play with you?

-DougF

Doug Freese said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2004-09-06, dave d <[email hidden]> wrote:

Just to check back. I suffered though my first and probably last, 10k
ROAD race of the year.

I've started running cross country too. What's the world coming to ?

Quoted message said:

My goal was 44 minutes. I wish I could offer up
my splits but forgot my watch. There was a person at the 1 mile yelling
times and ran mile one in 6:45. The next time was the finish clock and
42:50 which is sub 7.

So you probably would be able to kick Indy's butt (-;

Quoted message said:

I just knew my only speed workout of 4x3 minutes
with a one minute jog all at an unknown pace would get me in midseason
form. 😉 Not even a remote chance if iron.

The old men ("ancient warriors" as Bob calls them) are pretty tough around
here too. We've got one guy who's 58 in our club. After running a 1:26 half
marathon, he figured he hadn't had enough and went up to Bronx for the XC
4 miler (winnign his age group).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

can you a 50 or 100 at
any pace?

Without a doubt.

Quoted message said:

as they are in
many races, you get mentally screwed up and run stupid.

Everyday occurance in your case.

Quoted message said:

Yup, cute red ones.

You were nude, that redness is that STD you got the other night.

Quoted message said:

I would love to take you on one of my training runs.

Yeah, so I could help you when you collapsed three miles out.
Anytime, any distance. Punk.

Donovan Rebbechi said:

The old men ("ancient warriors" as Bob calls them) are pretty tough around
here too.

My favorite in my area is a guy named Joe Bonness. He does 8-10
Ironmans a year.

In 2001(at 46) he did 3 in 4 weeks, winning the Great Floridan
outright in 9:28 and placing in his AG in the other two.

He's one of the most gracious, unassuming people you'll ever meet.
Just don't try to pass him. <g>

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"