TdF 2005 changes

Jonathan v.d. Sluis said:

Paris-Roubaix has too much risk of injury for Armstrong. I've always
considered him a strong possible candidate for the Ronde van Vlaanderen, and
I never really understood why he did not ride there.

I think it would be great if LA went after the classics. If he did, I
think PR is exactly the kind of hard nosed course he would gravitate
to, even if the course isn't tailored to his riding strengths. OTOH,
he has demonstrated a bit more in the bike handling area than many in
the peloton, so he has an edge on those. If George can show up at the
Roubaix velodrome with the leaders, Lance has every chance to win it.

Discovery would be nuts to stand between LA and P-R - if nothing else,
they could do a hell of a two hour documentary lead-in to it.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Brenton James said:

I thought this was just a troll, until I read it on velonews
One time trial? One 20km time trial?

Its the direction they've been taking. IMO the loss limitations sucked
the life out of the team TT, and that leaves you with either one or
two ITTs.

I like the ITTs myself, but I wonder how a really casual bicycle race
observer finds them. The last one last year sounded at the end like a
seminar in loss management. Perhaps imminently practical, but most
(I'm guessing) would prefer 50 people coming around the last corner
setting up for a mass sprint.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

"Papai Digital" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Philip W. Moore, Jr." <philipmonews.com>...

Quoted message said:

That is if he shows up. Lance has got to be thinking about the Giro and
the
Vuelta. If He shows up for the TdF, he'll have to win it. I'm not so
sure
the TdF is on his program.

Lance will *not* do the Giro in 2005.
Discovery Channel has Popyvich and Savoldelli to lead them in Italy.
Required reading is the new CyclingNews.com Lance interview.

Offical Tour Route 2005 to be announced Thursday (tomorrow morning).

I just looke at OLN and the Oct 30 announcement date has been dropped from
the schedule

Quoted message said:

-Ken

Quoted message said:

"Steve Walton" <sj_walindividual.de...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:10:10 GMT, [email hidden] (Jørn
Dahl-Stamnes) wrote:

>Just read that there will be only one time trail stage during TdF
>2005.

And

Quoted message said:

>not so many mountain stages. Seems like they will try to make it
>easier

for

Quoted message said:

>other than Lance to win the tour...
>
is that on the basis, that they've tried to make it harder for him
and he still wins. So now level the playing field - literally!

He'll still win.

Steve

J?rn Dahl-Stamnes said:

Just read that there will be only one time trail stage during TdF 2005. And
not so many mountain stages. Seems like they will try to make it easier for
other than Lance to win the tour...

OK, here are my impressions...

On the surface it looks like they are cutting mountains and
time trials. But if you take a broader view, I think what
they are cutting is opportunities to make/lose large amounts
of time. If you look at the mountain top finishes:

- Courchevel, preceeded by only one big climb
- Ax-3 Domaines, preceeding by a big climb but the
finish itself isn't that long
- Pla d'Adet, this one looks to be a [censored], especially
since it follows the Ax-3 Domaines stage.

Going over the Madelaine and the Galibier will hurt, but
the finish is the long downhill run-in into Briancon. The
Mulhouse and Pau stages will not make a big difference.

There is a single ITT and it is not until the second to
last day. If you are a mountain goat there will not be
a day where you cough up any time to the big TT hammers,
putting you on the defensive in the mountains. With
the TTT time loss limitations it will be hard to
eliminate contenders in the early going.

So I see a parcours designed to keep the gaps small for
a longer period of time. I think you could see a number
of riders in with a shout at St. Etienne.

Bob Schwartz
[email hidden]

Bob Schwartz said:

So I see a parcours designed to keep the gaps small for
a longer period of time. I think you could see a number
of riders in with a shout at St. Etienne.

And more fun for us. The most exciting stages of recent Tour history
are the non-mountain top finish mountain stages. Cunego and/or Valverde
could rack up lots of stage wins.

As long as Discovery doesn't blow the field to pieces beforehand, like they
did this year...

Quoted message said:

So I see a parcours designed to keep the gaps small for
a longer period of time. I think you could see a number
of riders in with a shout at St. Etienne.

Bob Schwartz
[email hidden]

Ohh, you mean those stages that mean nothing to the overall lead? The ones
that are important for sponsors and the die-hard fans, but have no relevance
to the only competition that was ment to mean anything when the Tour was
created?

"gym gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Schwartz said:

So I see a parcours designed to keep the gaps small for
a longer period of time. I think you could see a number
of riders in with a shout at St. Etienne.

And more fun for us. The most exciting stages of recent Tour history
are the non-mountain top finish mountain stages. Cunego and/or Valverde
could rack up lots of stage wins.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:22:00 -0400, gym gravity <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Bob Schwartz said:

So I see a parcours designed to keep the gaps small for
a longer period of time. I think you could see a number
of riders in with a shout at St. Etienne.

And more fun for us. The most exciting stages of recent Tour history
are the non-mountain top finish mountain stages. Cunego and/or Valverde
could rack up lots of stage wins.

One stage was so exciting, it was almost scary.

Two riders had broken away, and managed to cooperate. The commentators
warned about needing to help each other or they could get caught. Sure
enough his words were prophetic. A few km before the finish one of the
riders seemed to dally coming up front to pull his turn. They did not
realize how close the peloton was or they would not have stopped working
together, and started playing around for a few seconds.

The camera angle and the sudden appearance of the sprinters backed by a
rather large peloton was actually frightening in its suddenness. With a few
hundred yards left, they came ripping around the corner and denied two
riders their win by mere seconds. The peloton literally swallowed them up
like a great shark.

I remember jumping out of my seat and screaming, but a way..manly scream!

-B

Badger_South said:

They did not realize how close the peloton was or they
would not have stopped working together

Not necessarily true. One of them could be convinced he would lose in a
sprint with two, and rather then give the other his win for free, screws
them both (all the while speculating he still might get towed to the
line and have a chance).

--
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Thunderbird E-mail and Newsgroups - http://gettbird.com/

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Badger_South said:

They did not realize how close the peloton was or they
would not have stopped working together

Not necessarily true. One of them could be convinced he would lose in a
sprint with two, and rather then give the other his win for free, screws
them both (all the while speculating he still might get towed to the
line and have a chance).

One of them was Simeoni. Otherwise they might have made it. Allegedly.

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Badger_South said:

They did not realize how close the peloton was or they
would not have stopped working together

Not necessarily true. One of them could be convinced he would lose in a
sprint with two, and rather then give the other his win for free, screws
them both (all the while speculating he still might get towed to the
line and have a chance).

I meant right near the finish. Watch it again. You may see where Simioni
and his riding companion is suddenly surprised as [censored] and turn around and
run like they stole something....

Do you remember what stage tha was in?

-B

quote='Bob Schwartz'J?rn Dahl-Stamnes said:

Just read that there will be only one time trail stage during TdF 2005. And
not so many mountain stages. Seems like they will try to make it easier for
other than Lance to win the tour...

OK, here are my impressions...

On the surface it looks like they are cutting mountains and
time trials. But if you take a broader view, I think what
they are cutting is opportunities to make/lose large amounts
of time. If you look at the mountain top finishes:

- Courchevel, preceeded by only one big climb
- Ax-3 Domaines, preceeding by a big climb but the
finish itself isn't that long
- Pla d'Adet, this one looks to be a [censored], especially
since it follows the Ax-3 Domaines stage.

Going over the Madelaine and the Galibier will hurt, but
the finish is the long downhill run-in into Briancon. The
Mulhouse and Pau stages will not make a big difference.

There is a single ITT and it is not until the second to
last day. If you are a mountain goat there will not be
a day where you cough up any time to the big TT hammers,
putting you on the defensive in the mountains. With
the TTT time loss limitations it will be hard to
eliminate contenders in the early going.

So I see a parcours designed to keep the gaps small for
a longer period of time. I think you could see a number
of riders in with a shout at St. Etienne.

Bob Schwartz
[email hidden][/QUOTE]

Actually, while they are only having two time trials this year, they come close to the total number of kilos in last years 3 time trials. 74 k this year compared to 76.5 last year. The arrangement of the time trials this year is going to hurt Basso, Heras, and the other climbers at the start while the all arounders should benefit greatly.

Liberty, CSC, and Euskatel will have to be strong in the team time trial to avoid getting further behind before the mountains.

Badger_South said:

I meant right near the finish. Watch it again.

Sorry, I wasn't talking about that specific stage. In fact, I think I
missed it because it took both Stuey Flandrien's and your message to
make me realize which race it was.

--
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Brenton James said:

Ohh, you mean those stages that mean nothing to the overall lead? The ones
that are important for sponsors and the die-hard fans, but have no relevance
to the only competition that was ment to mean anything when the Tour was
created?

Nope, but thanks for the top-post.

I mean the big mountain stages that have a downhill 15km to the finish.
And without the benefit of hindsight, who the [censored] is to say that any
one of these transitional mountain stages won't have an effect on GC?

Like the one Beloki crashed out on while the rest of the big GC guys had
to concentrate on the threat from Vinokourov.
Or stage 14, where Vinokourov and Mayo attacked again, Vinokourov
getting to 18 seconds behind Armstrong on GC.

Like stage 10 this year, the broken peleton coming in in groups of 15.
Or stage 15 this year, the final climb being only 2.3k at 6.6%,
Armstrong, Basso, Ullrich and Kloden sprinting it out, only 6 seconds
separating them in the end.
Or stage 17, where Landis, Armstrong, Basso, Ullrich and Kloden traded
punches. That one really sucked.

WTF! You think anyone *but* the die hard fans have the patience to
watch a rider soloing up the mountain for 20 minutes, or timetrialing?
Or sitting on a competitors wheel, protecting a 7 minute advantage on
the final MTF of the race?

Curtis L. Russell <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Brenton James said:

I thought this was just a troll, until I read it on velonews
One time trial? One 20km time trial?

Its the direction they've been taking. IMO the loss limitations sucked
the life out of the team TT, and that leaves you with either one or
two ITTs.

Are they going to use the same super artificial rules for the TTT in
2005 as they had in 2004 so that the weak teams appear not so weak?
That definitely sucked.
THIS IS A RACE, not a pansy excuse for weak teams to save face because
they
are too slow or disorganized to do a TTT.

-Ken

Quoted message said:

I like the ITTs myself, but I wonder how a really casual bicycle race
observer finds them. The last one last year sounded at the end like a
seminar in loss management. Perhaps imminently practical, but most
(I'm guessing) would prefer 50 people coming around the last corner
setting up for a mass sprint.

Curtis L. Russell

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Badger_South said:

I meant right near the finish. Watch it again.

Sorry, I wasn't talking about that specific stage. In fact, I think I
missed it because it took both Stuey Flandrien's and your message to
make me realize which race it was.

Thas' ok, mate. I'll find it eventually, and definitely by Thanksgiving
(thx OLN).

I was sitting on the couch at the Beach, just back from our 90 minute
'pre-TdF' ride of the day. Actually the best way to watch the Tour, lol.

Anyway, sitting on the couch already vibrating, still pumped from the bike
ride, and when the peloton came swinging around the corner chasing Simioni
and the other rider, and I leaped up off the couch, involuntarily, like
when you've just seen a bear.

It was the first time I've seen a bike race, and the first time I'd seen
this classic type of finish. I now know that the sprinters time it like
that. But...then...wow!

-B
Location, location, location...uh, and camera angle.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:55:28 -0400, gym gravity <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Brenton James said:

Ohh, you mean those stages that mean nothing to the overall lead? The ones
that are important for sponsors and the die-hard fans, but have no relevance
to the only competition that was ment to mean anything when the Tour was
created?

Nope, but thanks for the top-post.

I mean the big mountain stages that have a downhill 15km to the finish.
And without the benefit of hindsight, who the [censored] is to say that any
one of these transitional mountain stages won't have an effect on GC?

Like the one Beloki crashed out on while the rest of the big GC guys had
to concentrate on the threat from Vinokourov.
Or stage 14, where Vinokourov and Mayo attacked again, Vinokourov
getting to 18 seconds behind Armstrong on GC.

Like stage 10 this year, the broken peleton coming in in groups of 15.
Or stage 15 this year, the final climb being only 2.3k at 6.6%,
Armstrong, Basso, Ullrich and Kloden sprinting it out, only 6 seconds
separating them in the end.
Or stage 17, where Landis, Armstrong, Basso, Ullrich and Kloden traded
punches. That one really sucked.

WTF! You think anyone *but* the die hard fans have the patience to
watch a rider soloing up the mountain for 20 minutes, or timetrialing?
Or sitting on a competitors wheel, protecting a 7 minute advantage on
the final MTF of the race?

Raising hand, and fidgetting like crazy!

-B
Hottest post of the morning. More, more...

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:49:11 -0400, Badger_South <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:22:00 -0400, gym gravity <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Bob Schwartz said:

So I see a parcours designed to keep the gaps small for
a longer period of time. I think you could see a number
of riders in with a shout at St. Etienne.

And more fun for us. The most exciting stages of recent Tour history
are the non-mountain top finish mountain stages. Cunego and/or Valverde
could rack up lots of stage wins.

One stage was so exciting, it was almost scary.

Two riders had broken away, and managed to cooperate. The commentators
warned about needing to help each other or they could get caught. Sure
enough his words were prophetic. A few km before the finish one of the
riders seemed to dally coming up front to pull his turn. They did not
realize how close the peloton was or they would not have stopped working
together, and started playing around for a few seconds.

The camera angle and the sudden appearance of the sprinters backed by a
rather large peloton was actually frightening in its suddenness. With a few
hundred yards left, they came ripping around the corner and denied two
riders their win by mere seconds. The peloton literally swallowed them up
like a great shark.

I remember jumping out of my seat and screaming, but a way..manly scream!

-B

I remember that stage because it was the closest anyone from E-E
(Landaluze?) came to a stage victory this year..

-Jeffrey.

Sonarrat said:

I remember that stage because it was the closest anyone from E-E
(Landaluze?) came to a stage victory this year..

-Jeffrey.

Any idea what stage it was?

-B

I believe they said on the website that the rules will be the same.
Why don't they just shorten the damn thing, if they want the time gaps to be
small?
It just seems incredibly stupid to make a 60+km time trial, and then cut the
time gaps

"Papai Digital" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Curtis L. Russell <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Brenton James said:

I thought this was just a troll, until I read it on velonews
One time trial? One 20km time trial?

Its the direction they've been taking. IMO the loss limitations sucked
the life out of the team TT, and that leaves you with either one or
two ITTs.

Are they going to use the same super artificial rules for the TTT in
2005 as they had in 2004 so that the weak teams appear not so weak?
That definitely sucked.
THIS IS A RACE, not a pansy excuse for weak teams to save face because
they
are too slow or disorganized to do a TTT.

-Ken

Quoted message said:

I like the ITTs myself, but I wonder how a really casual bicycle race
observer finds them. The last one last year sounded at the end like a
seminar in loss management. Perhaps imminently practical, but most
(I'm guessing) would prefer 50 people coming around the last corner
setting up for a mass sprint.

Curtis L. Russell