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2005 TdeF route

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27 October 2004
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fondriest
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  1. The 2005 route is due to anounced on thursday. It is rumored (sp) that a few changes are likely.

    1. The prologue will be longer

    2. There will be only one TT, this will be the penultimate stage.

    3. Only three mountain finishes.

    It seems to me that the organisers are trying to stop L A from winning, to prevent the race becoming a forgone conclusion.

    A similar thing happened in formula 1 recently. The governing body started changing the format of the sport in an attempt to win back fans that were finding the sport boring with the same driver being so dominant (Micheal Schumacher) and winning the title year after year.

    What does everyone else feel about these changes?

  2. Are they dumping the TTT? It's a great spectacle, but rule changes last year were focused against LA and USPS - didn't work.

    fondriest said:

    The 2005 route is due to anounced on thursday. It is rumored (sp) that a few changes are likely.

    1. The prologue will be longer

    2. There will be only one TT, this will be the penultimate stage.

    3. Only three mountain finishes.

    It seems to me that the organisers are trying to stop L A from winning, to prevent the race becoming a forgone conclusion.

    A similar thing happened in formula 1 recently. The governing body started changing the format of the sport in an attempt to win back fans that were finding the sport boring with the same driver being so dominant (Micheal Schumacher) and winning the title year after year.

    What does everyone else feel about these changes?

  3. copwatch said:

    Are they dumping the TTT? It's a great spectacle, but rule changes last year were focused against LA and USPS - didn't work.


    Dont know about the TTT, but i agree it should be kept in.

    Heres a link to the article (remember none of this is official yet)

    news.bbc.co.uk3958427.stm

  4. On the question of whether there will be a TTT, Velonews provides slightly different information on the "one TT" point. It refers to "one individual time trial".

    "Sources close to the organizers said next year's race would feature only one **individual time trial** and three mountain finishes. The event normally includes two time trials and between four and six high-altitude finishes. The only time trial, other than a longer-than-usual prologue on July 2, will take place in St. Etienne on the penultimate day. The Tour will start from the island of Noirmoutier just south of Brittany and end on July 24 in Paris. Competitors will ride clockwise around France and climb the Alps before the Pyrénées. Another mountain stage in the Vosges mountains is also expected shortly after the Tour makes a short incursion into Germany."

  5. Cycling4all notes:

    "Stage 1 is a Time Trial of 19 kms in Fromentine on the island of Noirmoutier, followed by the a stage between Challans and Les Essarts...."

    So the prologue is longer than past years' prologues, more than 3x as long. This will be important for LA to win, relative to JU, etc.

    2004 -- 6.1 km
    2003 -- 6.5 km

  6. The prologue will be similar to 2000 TdF which Lance missed winning by only two seconds to David Millar. Funny, when Lance crossed the line and saw the times he said "Whose David Millar?" We all know now!

    I think that what the Tour is doing is wrong-headed, stupid and short sighted. All the classic Tours over many years are fought out in the time trials--Indurain, Ancqueteil--and mountains--Pantani or the combo--Lance, Hinault, Lemond. No one really wants to see the downhill finishes. It takes the drama out.

    But the mountain stages themselves are where the real drama always happen, and removing mtn top finishes makes it boring. Even apart from watching the winners...watching climbers have at it is great excitement. Hampsten, Chiapucci, Robert Millar, etc etc

    I think Lance made clear in cyclingnews that the Giro is out since the Italians are on a witch hunt and he doesnt want to give them the chance for a big photo op arrest. Really too bad since I think he was gonna do the Giro and not the Tour. Perhaps he'll go for something else this year as he has indicated. I think he may actually be waiting to see the course, since he stated he would do his schedule with Johan already but hasnt.

    Oh well.

    We'll see.

  7. Only 3 mountain top finished would suck.

    Dont mind the 1 ITT or even no TTT , but dont cut out the mountains.What a boring Tour it will become.

  8. Regardless of whatever ambiguity LA has expressed about doing the 05 Tour, he will participate in it. That's because LA is LA, and he would not be able to resist the prospect of a seventh consecutive Tour.

  9. They should still have plenty of mountains...

    Also, shouldn't the short TT/prologue benefit Lance? From what I've heard, Jan is better at the longer TTs, not the short ones.

  10. Well, nothing the Tour organizers can do will really impede LA, because he is good at everything (including on the TTT). So, I'm not worried, although I do feel the organizers' deliberate reduction of ITTs and mountain-top finishes (and the 04 cap on the amount of time that can be gained in a TTT) is a sign of a deliberate desire to have more suspense and an attempt to impede LA.

    But, getting back to the question on length of ITT, that's a very good line of inquiry that I don't have a response to yet.

    Even if there aren't a lot of mountain-top finishes, there will still be many mountains, because, without them, the Tour wouldn't be the Tour.

  11. There is a TTT - stage 4: 66 km. There are 6-7 stages which the organisers classify as mountain stages, 3 of which are mountop finishes and two stages have a mountain near the end followed by a long descent to the finish (stages 11 and 16). This is still a rugged tour. The elimination of one long TT will help the Basso's of this world but won't hurt Armstrong. So, the gaps bewteen the top 5-8 riders may be closer this year. This will put more emphasis on the mountain stages as a whole and reward the teams with the best mountain support. Perhaps it means that Armstrong will have to attack on more mountain stages, or perhaps it means that he won't give any away.

    Look at Team Discovery Channel. It is arguably stronger than last years. Look at the course. Armstrong is a year older, but a year wiser. It looked to me if as if he still had a lot in reserve at the end.

    If I were a gambling man I don't see that this course creates any need to hedge my bets on the favourate.

  12. Like the look of Stage 11 - Courcheval to Briancon, going over the Madeleine, Telegraph and Galibier on the way, but since it's a downhill finish it's probably not one where one rider will take huge amounts of time (unless it's a Virenque-esque breakaway). Stage 15 on the other hand, could well be the decisive one with the Portet d'Aspet and Peyresourde en route to a finish at Pla-d'Adet.

    Full parcours can be seen at letour.frparcours.html

  13. It seems to be a very low key Tour this year. The stages in the Pyrenees will be great though.

    The ITT in Saint Etienne I think favors LA--I hope this year's Tour is a thriller because last year really lacked a tight competition.

  14. michaelpfogarty said:

    It seems to be a very low key Tour this year. The stages in the Pyrenees will be great though.

    The ITT in Saint Etienne I think favors LA--I hope this year's Tour is a thriller because last year really lacked a tight competition.


    I think the ITT being the penultimate stage will give us a thrilling finish. Even if it isnt that close by the time they reach the ITT it will still be tense with the posibility of puncture, mechanical failure, falling and bad weather. Add to that the fact they are riding alone and have no team mates to help out and the tour finishing the day after with no time to recover any loses.......... god! i`m getting excited already.

  15. The Tour route certainly doesn't disfavor LA. Here's why. Sure, there are fewer mountain-top finishes and fewer ITTs. However, let's take a situation where there is a well-rounded rider (Rider L), and another rider that is a climbing specialist (Rider H) with limited ITT/TTT capabilities. Rider H is going to have fewer stages to try and gain time on the mountains too. But here's why Rider H is worse off. Imagine all stages except as indicated, both riders finish in the peloton and have equal time (including on TTT, which is counter-factual for LA).

    Rider L (this is counterfactual too, but assumed Rider H is better in the mountains than Rider L)
    Two ITTs: 30 seconds total gained relative to another Rider X
    3 Mountain top finishes: 2 minutes gained
    Total: 2.5 minutes gained (i.e., faster than others)

    Rider H
    Two ITTs: 4 minutes lost (since he is a poor time trialist) relative to Rider X
    3 Mountain top finishes: 5 minutes gained (gains 3 minutes more than Rider L, say)
    Tota: 1.0 minute gained

  16. Galibier said:

    Like the look of Stage 11 - Courcheval to Briancon, going over the Madeleine, Telegraph and Galibier on the way, but since it's a downhill finish it's probably not one where one rider will take huge amounts of time (unless it's a Virenque-esque breakaway). Stage 15 on the other hand, could well be the decisive one with the Portet d'Aspet and Peyresourde en route to a finish at Pla-d'Adet.

    Full parcours can be seen at letour.frparcours.html

    Agreed 15 looks a pretty interesting stage.

    If the UCI adopt the same testing as the IOC did at Athens, it will be interesting to see if LA turns up next July.

  17. Jalabert's observation is correct, as reported in Velonews: "Former French star Laurent Jalabert, now a commentator for French TV, said, 'This is a Tour for all-around riders that could suit a man like Vinokourov.'"

    Bruyneel: "This parcours is very similar to recent Tours and it’s a very balanced race. As a race, **the 2005 Tour fits Lance well**; but we don’t know it he’s going to race the Tour or not …we haven’t made a decision yet ..."

    Role of Mountain Descent

    Also, it must be remembered that LA is an outstanding descender of mountains. True, he doesn't always go as quickly as he could. But that's because it wasn't necessary to take risks on prior tours. On this one, I have no doubt that, if LA is in the lead in a mountain stage with a downhill finish, he will be putting in his most rapid descending performance (not that that is too helpful against a peloton descending). But I just note that LA is a much better descender than he has had to show during certain recent Tours.

    JU only gapped LA on the descent of Col d'Aspin in 04 because LA was careful, in part because of the rainy conditions. True, JU's descent has really improved over time, but LA is at least as good a descender when it counts as JU.

    Chris Carmichael discusses LA's descent capabilities: "Lance Armstrong has always been a very good and aggressive descender, and it's important to understand that this doesn't mean he's reckless or a daredevil. Rather, strong descenders are smart, know their limits, and stay within them (barely).... While many men have built their cycling reputations on their ability to climb mountains, few distinguish themselves with their descending skills. There is a limit to how fast you can safely descend, and groups almost always reform when the road levels out, so phenomenal descending skills won't give you nearly as much advantage as phenomenal climbing power. One man whose descending skills set him apart from the pack is 2002 Giro d'Italia winner, Paulo Salvodelli. "Il Falco" (The Falcon) as he is nicknamed, has been known to wipe out two-minute deficits on steep twisting descents."

    http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/carmichael14.html

    Then, there is the Beloki situation in 03. "Beloki’s crash (and Armstrong’s save): one of the most amazing moments in the history of cycling, and an image that will make every tour highlight reel ever put together. It points up a facet of bike racing that I think is often overlooked: handling skills. When they began that tricky descent--chasing Vinokourov--**Beloki’s director told him (over the radio) to let Armstrong take the lead, because he was generally acknowledged to be a better, bolder descender.** But for reasons of his own, Beloki forged ahead, on the front, taking chances and pushing the envelope."

    The Beloki crash could also suggest Azevedo is a decent descender (??), as well as climber. Azevedo was among the first ONCE teammates to be by Beloki's side after the crash.

    http://www.bikecal.com/bill/bill-0803.htm

    Role of Team in Controlling Other Riders

    This Tour route suggests that all-arounders are useful as Team members. It would be useful to have people who can be both rouleur-types, as it will be necessary to control breaks more (given the more limited opportunities for the leaders to recapture time) even in the early going. However, also you need the same people to be able to form little groups with you on the mountain passes so that you can descend as more than one person, and to permit the strategic opportunities raised by a long break-away involving a race favorite like LA (he would need some team members to be with him, to build momentum and keep the lead during descents). That is another reason LA and JU are best situated. They both have teammates who are pretty well-rounded, esp Azevedo, Popovych and Rubiera ini LA's case and Klodden and Vino in JU's case.

    Contrary to popular belief, even though the penultimate stage's being an ITT adds uncertainty for each rider, I think the route favors riders who are well-rounded and who have strong teams. Hmm, that means LA and JU! :p

  18. limerickman said:

    Agreed 15 looks a pretty interesting stage.

    If the UCI adopt the same testing as the IOC did at Athens, it will be interesting to see if LA turns up next July.

    Does the diagram for 15 indicate a part of it is in Spain, due to the Espagne designation at the bottom? If that's the case, Mayo et al may be a bit more motivated than usual, esp after the terrible showing for Spanish fans in 04.

    Some History on Pla-d'Adet. It was where LA got the yellow jersey in 01.

    "I don't think I've ever felt as strong before," declared Lance Armstrong just after he donned the Maillot Jaune in Pla d'Adet, after the brutal Stage 13 finish."
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2001/tour01/results/results_stage_13.shtml
    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2001tour/2001-07-21-stage13.htm

  19. musette said:

    Does the diagram for 15 indicate a part of it is in Spain, due to the Espagne designation at the bottom? If that's the case, Mayo et al may be a bit more motivated than usual, esp after the terrible showing for Spanish fans in 04.

    Goes in to Spain for a few kilometres.

    Mayo !?!?
    Well at least there's no cobbles to upset him in '05 !
    I see he's disappointed that no one has come looking for him in the transfer market.

  20. limerickman said:

    Mayo !?!?
    Well at least there's no cobbles to upset him in '05 !

    I said Mayo would be more motivated. That doesn't mean his motivation is going to lead to anything. Of course LA will win 15.

    Salvodelli aka "Il Falco" (obviously, teammate of LA; ex-teammate of JU)

    You know what the course means for sure? Salvodelli won't be able to ride for himself as readily in the Giro, because Bruyneel might make him save his energies, relinquish the Giro for the Discovery Team as a real prospect (or use Popovych in Italy, with the hopes Popovych will get grand tour experience). SALVODELLI WILL BE ON THE TdF TEAM FOR DISCOVERY, and off the Giro team (resting up).

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