Integrated headset adjustments.

Claes said:

Hi, I am having some issues with my integrated head set on my roadie needing much adjustment. Never had this problem before. I need to adjust it every two three rides. Weird. No obivious problems bar my technique perhaps. Here is how I do it.
1. Loosen stem.
2. lock front wheel with front brake.
3. "move" bike back and forward with a steady grip around the top tube. Now, the bike does not move, the front wheel is locked with the brake.
4. tighten top cap bolt until no movement in the bearing.
5. tighten stem bolts to indicated torque.

Any ideas anyone? Everything bar "you are a moron" is welcome.
The bike is newish, only 15 rides or so on it.

what kind of fork are you using? does it need a baseplate or is it integrated on your fork? if not, proper preparation of the fork is essential. the crown race seat has to be reamed and faced properly. check the baseplate of the headset.

fixit said:

what kind of fork are you using? does it need a baseplate or is it integrated on your fork? if not, proper preparation of the fork is essential. the crown race seat has to be reamed and faced properly. check the baseplate of the headset.

Ok, I'll check the "cup" on the fork. It is a carbon fork, with carbon steerer if that is what you mean. I have to look to see wether it has "non integrated" cup or not, that is what you mean, right?

Thanx for the advice. I am a bit scared of messing the bearings up, since it is integrated, that would mean I have to discard the whole frame.

Claes said:

Hi, I am having some issues with my integrated head set on my roadie needing much adjustment. Never had this problem before. I need to adjust it every two three rides. Weird. No obivious problems bar my technique perhaps. Here is how I do it.
1. Loosen stem.
2. lock front wheel with front brake.
3. "move" bike back and forward with a steady grip around the top tube. Now, the bike does not move, the front wheel is locked with the brake.
4. tighten top cap bolt until no movement in the bearing.
5. tighten stem bolts to indicated torque.

Any ideas anyone? Everything bar "you are a moron" is welcome.
The bike is newish, only 15 rides or so on it.

Sounds very likely that you're not putting enough preload on the bearings. Have one of the stem bolts just nipped so that when you adjust the top cap bolt bolt you're 'pulling' against the stem, tighten top cap just to the point you've described, then go a further 1/8 - 3/16 turn, lift the front off the ground and rotate bars to feel the bearing drag is OK (as in rotation is smooth with minmal pressure required) and you should be good for a very long time. Could simply be that one or more of the races has never been seated properly ?

[quote="Claes"]Ok, I'll check the "cup" on the fork. It is a carbon fork, with carbon steerer if that is what you mean. I have to look to see wether it has "non integrated" cup or not, that is what you mean, right?

yes, that's what i mean. 🙂

old&slow said:

Sounds very likely that you're not putting enough preload on the bearings. Have one of the stem bolts just nipped so that when you adjust the top cap bolt bolt you're 'pulling' against the stem, tighten top cap just to the point you've described, then go a further 1/8 - 3/16 turn, lift the front off the ground and rotate bars to feel the bearing drag is OK (as in rotation is smooth with minmal pressure required) and you should be good for a very long time. Could simply be that one or more of the races has never been seated properly ?

Now I am a little lost. I thought that point with the adjustment was to have the steem so loose as possible so to speak. That way the the top capbolt push on the stem which tightens the bearing. How would keeping one bolt on the stem slightly tightened help this?
Cheers.

Claes said:

I thought that point with the adjustment was to have the steem so loose as possible so to speak. That way the the top capbolt push on the stem which tightens the bearing.
Cheers.

you're absolutly right. maybe the expander in the steering column is moving?

fixit said:

you're absolutly right. maybe the expander in the steering column is moving?

Yeah, the expander is not very secured in there, but, I immediately tighten the stem, and it is the stem that keeps the bearing tightened. Right again I hope?

Claes said:

Yeah, the expander is not very secured in there, but, I immediately tighten the stem, and it is the stem that keeps the bearing tightened. Right again I hope?

yes, but if you tighten the top cap bolt and the expander is moving up, the whole thing is not tight when you tighten the stem.

fixit said:

yes, but if you tighten the top cap bolt and the expander is moving up, the whole thing is not tight when you tighten the stem.

Yes, that is true, I'll have a close look at this next time I adjust it. Thing is, after I have tightened the stem, it feels fine when I check the same way when I do the adjustment. Hmm, maybe something is loose in there.
Cheers.

Claes said:

Yes, that is true, I'll have a close look at this next time I adjust it. Thing is, after I have tightened the stem, it feels fine when I check the same way when I do the adjustment. Hmm, maybe something is loose in there.
Cheers.

another possibility is (unlikely thou), when the head tube is not properly reamed, the bearings don't sit in there properly and after adjusting it feels ok, but the bearings will move when you ride.

Well, took it sort of apart, just glimpsed, no probs that I could see. Put it back together, but did a few things that seems to have helped, well I have not been out on it yet, but I do get it stable with less tensions in the cap bolt now, it seems like.
I took the expander out and used a metal file to *scratch* the surface on the expander, I then dried it off with rag soaked with some expensive GIN. 🙂
I cleaned out the inside of the steerer with some gin as well. The expander sits much more securely there now. We'll see what happens tomorrow. Thanx everyone for good advice.

Claes said:

Well, took it sort of apart, just glimpsed, no probs that I could see. Put it back together, but did a few things that seems to have helped, well I have not been out on it yet, but I do get it stable with less tensions in the cap bolt now, it seems like.
I took the expander out and used a metal file to *scratch* the surface on the expander, I then dried it off with rag soaked with some expensive GIN. 🙂
I cleaned out the inside of the steerer with some gin as well. The expander sits much more securely there now. We'll see what happens tomorrow. Thanx everyone for good advice.

All good advice here. Once the expander is secure, seems you should be able to feel drag from the bearing preload as you tighten the top cap at and then beyond the specified torque (eg, 25 in-lbs). Maybe check for a stable, and increasing torque on the top cap, then before you torque the stem bolts, bounce and rock the front end....should be no need to actually ride to test. If the light drag and preload go away, I'd think you must have a problem with bearing seating.

Just remember to save some of that expensive gin for yourself....you'll deserve it when you solve this one.

dhk said:

All good advice here. Once the expander is secure, seems you should be able to feel drag from the bearing preload as you tighten the top cap at and then beyond the specified torque (eg, 25 in-lbs). Maybe check for a stable, and increasing torque on the top cap, then before you torque the stem bolts, bounce and rock the front end....should be no need to actually ride to test. If the light drag and preload go away, I'd think you must have a problem with bearing seating.

Just remember to save some of that expensive gin for yourself....you'll deserve it when you solve this one.

Yepp, I did not spend much, I have plenty left for myself. It seems to have helped, 100 k ride today did not reveal any problem. I just have a funny sound from that area, a *ping* in lack of better words, not a sharp metallic ping, but "darker" I think it is from the stem, that does not concern my half as much, whatever happens with it, it can be switched out. Well, as long as it do not fail me when going downhill at 85 k. 🙂 Thanx again everyone. I should perhaps say that when putting the whole thing back together, I applied a lot of force, once all was aligned, to make sure that nothing was loose or such. it seems to have worked, I am happy again, my Cervelo is flying, well, it would be with a pair of strong legs on it 🙂

fixit said:

what kind of fork are you using? does it need a baseplate or is it integrated on your fork? if not, proper preparation of the fork is essential. the crown race seat has to be reamed and faced properly. check the baseplate of the headset.

that's just BS.

Claes said:

Ok, I'll check the "cup" on the fork. It is a carbon fork, with carbon steerer if that is what you mean. I have to look to see wether it has "non integrated" cup or not, that is what you mean, right?

Thanx for the advice. I am a bit scared of messing the bearings up, since it is integrated, that would mean I have to discard the whole frame.

You got a bunch of BS. Unless there is some proprietary design fork/HS, that I have never seen, the HS crown race is not integrated with the fork crown.

Claes said:

Well, took it sort of apart, just glimpsed, no probs that I could see. Put it back together, but did a few things that seems to have helped, well I have not been out on it yet, but I do get it stable with less tensions in the cap bolt now, it seems like.
I took the expander out and used a metal file to *scratch* the surface on the expander, I then dried it off with rag soaked with some expensive GIN. 🙂
I cleaned out the inside of the steerer with some gin as well. The expander sits much more securely there now. We'll see what happens tomorrow. Thanx everyone for good advice.

www.parktool.com repair setion has the how to drill on adjustment.Make sure the top of the steerer is far enough below the topcap that there is no interference, and that the expander nt he steerer is secure.

boudreaux said:

www.parktool.com repair setion has the how to drill on adjustment.Make sure the top of the steerer is far enough below the topcap that there is no interference, and that the expander nt he steerer is secure.

Good point....I should have also mentioned the obvious that the top of the steerer has to be below the stem. Otherwise, you're just tightening the cap onto the top of the steer tube while the stem is free....that would keep the top cap from falling off, but it's not preloading anything.

The check I mentioned before should also reveal a lack of clearance.....if you can't easily get steering drag by tightening the top cap during the adjustment process, something isn't right.

Bah, my last adjustment held for exactly 130 km. That is not cool. I had to adjust it in the middle of a ride last night. I am going back to my LBS with this one. I can adjust easily enough, no probs, but it comes loose again, that seems to be the only issue. I am tightening the stem bolts to the recommended torque. Now, I should say, it is a 11/4 stem with a 1 inch fork steerer. So, there is an aluminium "adapter" in there, could that be causing stuff? I do not know, and I do not want to mess up the bearing, so the LBS it is.

boudreaux said:

You got a bunch of BS. Unless there is some proprietary design fork/HS, that I have never seen, the HS crown race is not integrated with the fork crown.

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