Pushing v slogging

Kev C said:

Hi all. If you are going up a steep hill, lowest granny gear and your cadence goes way down is it
actually "better/easier" to get off and push or should you just keep slogging away?

--
yours K (Addy not usable [not that you would try it anyway]) There wis a Hare ran tae a burn it
ran sae fast it couldnae turn \\SPLASH// :o) [Please note grammar and descriptions are loose so no
flaming me please]

I dunno what's best from a physical point of view, but would you feel comfortable walking your bike
up a hill that you know you can ride up? I spose it is egotism, but why walk when you can gear down
and spin? Lots of stronger riders pass me on hills, but at least I'm not walking. My feeling is sit
and spin up all those hills. Bernie

Kev C said:

Hi all. If you are going up a steep hill, lowest granny gear and your cadence goes way down is it
actually "better/easier" to get off and push or should you just keep slogging away?

--
yours K (Addy not usable [not that you would try it anyway]) There wis a Hare ran tae a burn it
ran sae fast it couldnae turn \\SPLASH// :o) [Please note grammar and descriptions are loose so no
flaming me please]

PS: I'll stand by my previous post/opinion, as long as you're not hurting your knees. Pay attention
to how your knees are reacting to "slogging" up hills.. Bernie

Quoted message said:

If you are going up a steep hill, lowest granny gear and your cadence

goes

Quoted message said:

way down is it actually "better/easier" to get off and push or should you just keep slogging away?

The only times I can imagine it would be best to walk your bike instead of ride would be-

#1: You simply don't have the gearing to make it practical (or safe) to
ride up hill, finding that you need to tack (zig-zag) across the road to keep going, or you feel
like you're about to injure knees etc. Trouble is, you usually don't feel like you're about to
injure your knees; rather, you discover too late that whatever you did has caused you grief.

#2: You develop muscle cramps that make riding extraordinarily painful and
need to stop. You could, of course, just stop. Or, walk off the cramps. This happened to me once, on
Mt. Ventoux several years ago. I can normally ride straight up a wall, but I wasn't myself that day
(and it was after riding very hard for 80 miles prior). Walking seemed humiliating, but it also
seemed like a good way to keep the legs moving and they began to feel better after a bit. I remember
very well saying to myself, over and over and over, "Walk off the cramps, walk off the cramps, walk
off the cramps..."

In a strange sort of way, your ego is less deflated by simply stopping and taking a break than by
walking, but walking is probably better for you.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

Bernie <[email hidden]> wrote:
: I dunno what's best from a physical point of view, but would you feel comfortable walking your
: bike up a hill that you know you can ride up? I spose it is egotism, but why walk when you can
: gear down and spin?

One needs small enough gears for that. Megarange cassettes, smaller granny rings, possibly internal
gear hubs. Recumbent trikes often use expensive internal gear hubs, but they are also stable even at
extremely low speeds.

--
Risto Varanka | helsinki.fihpv.htmlOpen ↗ varis at no spam please iki fi

"Bernie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

PS: I'll stand by my previous post/opinion, as long as you're not hurting

your

Quoted message said:

knees. Pay attention to how your knees are reacting to "slogging" up

hills..

Low cadence is a red-herring, and I'm not sure whether it has anything to do with hurting your
knees. On steep hills, pedal force is determined mostly by the gear ratio, not the cadence.
Sometimes I climb a steepish hill in a particular gear ratio at 60rpm. At other times, when I'm
tired, I'll climb the exact same hill in the exact same gear ratio at 40rpm. The force on my knees
is (almost) exactly the same.

Quoted message said:

Bernie <[email hidden]> wrote:
: I dunno what's best from a physical point of view, but would you feel comfortable walking your
: bike up a hill that you know you can ride up? I spose it is egotism, but why walk when you can
: gear down and spin?

One needs small enough gears for that. Megarange cassettes, smaller granny rings, possibly
internal gear hubs. Recumbent trikes often use expensive internal gear hubs, but they are also
stable even at extremely low speeds.

Well, to qualify, the OP did not say what kind of bike he rides, and most any cycle with a triple
crank can handle wicked paved hills. Further, on really steep hills, it is more like "slog" than
"spin" up the hill, but still no need to walk. Bicycles being ridden straight up steep hills are
also stable. Slow, steady, and stable. As I said, it is easier on the ego to ride slow and steady
than to give in and walk. Best regards, Bernie

Robert Chung said:

"Bernie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

PS: I'll stand by my previous post/opinion, as long as you're not hurting

your

Quoted message said:

knees. Pay attention to how your knees are reacting to "slogging" up

hills..

Low cadence is a red-herring, and I'm not sure whether it has anything to do with hurting your
knees. On steep hills, pedal force is determined mostly by the gear ratio, not the cadence.
Sometimes I climb a steepish hill in a particular gear ratio at 60rpm. At other times, when I'm
tired, I'll climb the exact same hill in the exact same gear ratio at 40rpm. The force on my knees
is (almost) exactly the same.

Oh I agree absolutely. I was thinking about the effort the OP was using. I don't worry much about
cadence most of the time, but wanted to be sure he was not putting unnecessary stress on his knees
because of big gears or grades just too steep. Bernie

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bernie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

PS: I'll stand by my previous post/opinion, as long as you're not

hurting

Quoted message said:

your

Quoted message said:

knees. Pay attention to how your knees are reacting to "slogging" up

hills..

Low cadence is a red-herring, and I'm not sure whether it has anything to

do

Quoted message said:

with hurting your knees. On steep hills, pedal force is determined mostly

by

Quoted message said:

the gear ratio, not the cadence. Sometimes I climb a steepish hill in a particular gear ratio at
60rpm. At other times, when I'm tired, I'll climb the exact same hill in the exact same gear ratio
at 40rpm. The force on my knees is (almost) exactly the same.

Sorry, I got interrupted and hit the "send" button unintentionally early. To continue:

So the issue is too-high gearing, not too-low cadence. When someone says he was climbing
such-and-such a hill at X rpm, this means almost nothing. When he says he was climbing that hill in
Y gear-inches, that tells you a lot.

Conversely, when you're on the flat pedal force is relatively insensitive to gear ratio. One can
actually generate more pedal force (and knee force) at 90rpm on the flat than at, say, 45rpm up a
really steep hill. If you're only looking at cadence you might come to the conclusion that the
hill-climbing pedal forces were higher. My point is that you actually have to calculate the pedal
force to know for sure.

Kev C typed the following

Quoted message said:

Hi all. If you are going up a steep hill, lowest granny gear and your cadence goes way down is it
actually "better/easier" to get off and push or should you just keep slogging away?

Thanks all. I have to follow my sons (10 & 9)(9year old has lots of probs but basically mentally he
4~5)to teach them some road sence they have a tendency to walk on steep hills and basically I was
wondering if there was something I could say to keep them riding rather than walking or indeed if
it was actually "better" to walk.Seems as long as they are not injuring themselves riding is a
"better" option.

--
yours K (Addy not usable [not that you would try it anyway]) There wis a Hare ran tae a burn it ran
sae fast it couldnae turn \\SPLASH// :o) [Please note grammar and descriptions are loose so no
flaming me please]

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Kev C said:

Hi all. If you are going up a steep hill, lowest granny gear and your cadence goes way down is
it actually "better/easier" to get off and push or should you just keep slogging away?

--
yours K (Addy not usable [not that you would try it anyway]) There wis a Hare ran tae a burn it
ran sae fast it couldnae turn \\SPLASH// :o) [Please note grammar and descriptions are loose so
no flaming me please]

I dunno what's best from a physical point of view, but would you feel comfortable walking your
bike up a hill that you know you can ride up? I spose it is egotism, but why walk when you can
gear down and spin? Lots of stronger riders pass me on hills, but at least I'm not walking. My
feeling is sit and spin up all those hills.

But he said he's already in his lowest granny gear and having trouble maintaining a
reasonable cadence.

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.

"archer" <ns_archer1960@ns_hotmail.com> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Kev C said:

Hi all. If you are going up a steep hill, lowest granny gear and your

cadence goes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

way down is it actually "better/easier" to get off and push or should

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just keep slogging away?

--
yours K (Addy not usable [not that you would try it anyway]) There wis a Hare ran tae a burn
it ran sae fast it couldnae turn \\SPLASH// :o) [Please note grammar and descriptions are
loose so no flaming me

please]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I dunno what's best from a physical point of view, but would you feel comfortable walking your
bike up a hill that you know you can ride up?

I spose

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it is egotism, but why walk when you can gear down and spin? Lots of stronger riders pass me on
hills, but at least I'm not walking.

My

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

feeling is sit and spin up all those hills.

But he said he's already in his lowest granny gear and having trouble maintaining a reasonable
cadence.

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord, it's
morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.

What about standing? This will allow a higher cadence. For a portion of my ride here in CT, I have
to stand or the rpms get too low for my liking. Plus, I feel less pressure on my knees when standing
than I do when sitting (although this could be purely imagined).

--
Bob ctviggen at rcn dot com

Kev C said:

If you are going up a steep hill, lowest granny gear and your cadence goes way down is it actually
"better/easier" to get off and push or should you just keep slogging away?

I have only once had to push up a hill - it was steeper than 25% and I was riding a triplet with two
inexperienced child stokers - but I would rather push than blow a knee any day. Cadence below 60 is
time to get off, I reckon. And if it happens often, get lower gears because if we wanted to walk why
would we have brought the bike ;-)

I very rarely climb out of the saddle[1], I try to make sure that I have the right gears to spin up
the worst hill I'm going to meet on a given ride.

[1] and never when riding the recumbent :-)

Guy
===
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"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What about standing? This will allow a higher cadence. For a portion of

my

Quoted message said:

ride here in CT, I have to stand or the rpms get too low for my liking. Plus, I feel less pressure
on my knees when standing than I do when

sitting

Quoted message said:

(although this could be purely imagined).

As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, cadence has almost no effect on pedal force for a given
gear on a given hill, so even if standing allows you to increase cadence it doesn't decrease force
(the small effect that it does have is that for higher cadence for a given gear the force
*increases*).

Which is not to say that standing doesn't have an effect. Even if it doesn't have an effect on the
pedal force, even if it doesn't have an effect on total knee force, it may have an effect on the
direction of those forces at the knee. Standing reduces the angle the knee makes when you're
pedaling at maximum torque, and thus may reduce the maximum perpendicular force on the spot where
the femur meets the patella. This may be why you feel less pressure on your knees when standing --
it's the angle, not the cadence.

[email hidden] wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Bernie <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

One needs small enough gears for that. Megarange cassettes, smaller granny rings, possibly
internal gear hubs. Recumbent trikes often use expensive internal gear hubs, but they are also
stable even at extremely low speeds.

good heavens--he said "hill" not "wall"!

Robert Chung said:

This may be why you feel less pressure on your knees when standing -- it's the angle, not
the cadence.

First credible justification for standing I've heard. Thanks.

Don't mind me if I keep spinning, though :-)

Guy
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"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Robert Chung said:

This may be why you feel less pressure on your knees when standing -- it's the angle, not the
cadence.

First credible justification for standing I've heard. Thanks.

Don't mind me if I keep spinning, though :-)

Guy
===

I agree with you -- it likely is the angle. Also, I have very strong quads due to weight lifting,
and I find a bit less pressure if I can remember to pedal circles instead of push down. For my bike,
I'd have to buy a new one to avoid standing. I'm already riding a 39T front chainring, and I'd have
to put a triple to get a better chainring. My bike is old (it has -- gasp! -- downtube shifters). I
don't mind standing; in fact, I stand about
1/3 to 1/5 of my ride, and I'm currently riding my mountain bike on the road (I can shift to the
small chainring if desired).

--
Bob ctviggen at rcn dot com

Bob said:

I have very strong quads due to weight lifting, and I find a bit less pressure if I can remember to
pedal circles instead of push down.

Not far off the recommended technique in bentdom. I have pretty strong quads as well, partly from
weights but mostly from riding recumbent; I find that concentrating on pedalling technique, keeping
the power on for more of the pedal stroke, makes for faster and less tiring ascents.

I do also ride wedgies, I recently competed in a mostly cross-country (flint track, not
singletrack) duathlon on my old MTB as part of a team. I was 12th fastest bike overall, out of 120,
completing the 20k in just under 43 minutes - not bad for a 40-year-old asthmatic whose only
training was riding to work! I only got out of the saddle for the biggest bumps on the descents,
not at all on the climbs, and of the 39 people I passed en route every one was on an uphill
stretch. Spin, baby, spin!

My target cadence on the flat these days is 100-105, and I try to keep above 95 on climbs. I
recommend a Cateye Astrale for anyone who has knee problems or trouble with cadence; cheap and quite
informative.

Cheers from Merrie Englande,

Guy
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In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"archer" <ns_archer1960@ns_hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Kev C wrote:

> Hi all. If you are going up a steep hill, lowest granny gear and your

cadence goes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> way down is it actually "better/easier" to get off and push or should

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> just keep slogging away?
>
> --
> yours K (Addy not usable [not that you would try it anyway]) There wis a Hare ran tae a burn
> it ran sae fast it couldnae turn \\SPLASH// :o) [Please note grammar and descriptions are
> loose so no flaming me

please]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I dunno what's best from a physical point of view, but would you feel comfortable walking your
bike up a hill that you know you can ride up?

I spose

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it is egotism, but why walk when you can gear down and spin? Lots of stronger riders pass me
on hills, but at least I'm not walking.

My

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

feeling is sit and spin up all those hills.

But he said he's already in his lowest granny gear and having trouble maintaining a reasonable
cadence.

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord, it's
morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.

What about standing? This will allow a higher cadence. For a portion of my ride here in CT, I have
to stand or the rpms get too low for my liking. Plus, I feel less pressure on my knees when
standing than I do when sitting (although this could be purely imagined).

I don't think it's imagined; I feel the same way. I think it's because instead of moving the pedal
with full pressure on your knee, you are raising your body, with the leg starting from a more
extended position than it is at the top of a seated pedal stroke. Then the maximum force is applied
with your leg nearly straight, which would significantly reduce the stress on your knee.

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.

Kev C said:

Kev C typed the following

Quoted message said:

Hi all. If you are going up a steep hill, lowest granny gear and your cadence goes way down is
it actually "better/easier" to get off and push or should you just keep slogging away?

Thanks all. I have to follow my sons (10 & 9)(9year old has lots of probs but basically mentally
he 4~5)to teach them some road sence they have a tendency to walk on steep hills and basically I
was wondering if there was something I could say to keep them riding rather than walking or indeed
if it was actually "better" to walk.Seems as long as they are not injuring themselves riding is a
"better" option.

--
yours K (Addy not usable [not that you would try it anyway]) There wis a Hare ran tae a burn it
ran sae fast it couldnae turn \\SPLASH// :o) [Please note grammar and descriptions are loose so no
flaming me please]

Given all that, my feeling is to keep cranking and don't give up easily. Bernie