Subway Express Pros

"mike schatzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

D-Low racing....New Mexico's first professional cycling team.

Anyway, I'm not sure of the point of your post. Are you [censored] that some
D3 riders are acting cocky ? Would it make you feel better if they were Cat
1's and walking around cocky ? I really don't get your point.

As for your assessment of the abilities or qualities of domestic D3 teams,
in some cases your assumptions are correct and in some cases your
assumptions are way off the mark.

I'll speak specifically to Sportsbook.com. We had a budget of around $75k
with some substantial product assistance. For that I was able to pay two
riders a very slight stipend and others races with no salary. None one of
the riders paid for anything out of their own pockets. No one paid to get on
the team and no one paid for any of the races that they team did as a team.

We attended some west coast events, all the US Pro Tour events, most of all
the east coast based NRC events, a small stage race in Mexico, and a stage
race in Ireland. We also had a fairly sucessful track effort. We didn't run
out of money and actually had just a little bit of money left over at the
end of the season.

While we didn't have any outstanding results and our riders couldn't live
exclusively off prize money, I think the program and the riders achieved
most it's goals. For 2004 3 of the members rode for a bigger and more
financially beneficial program. The younger riders got onto a well supported
U23 program. One rider decided to persue multi-sport racing with some
success. A few of the riders decided to leave the sport altogether. A few
went back to good regional programs know what skills they need to work on in
order to take the next step.

All in all, I believe that most of the riders had a postive experience that
made them better cyclists and gave them an opportunity to do things that
they otherwise would not have been able to do ( or at least do as well). I
know as the team manager, those things held true for me. I would not choose,
at this point in my life, to live that lifestyle year after year, but I also
wouldn't begrudge anyone who did. If I were 10 years younger I suspect I'd
still be doing it going into 2005. It's fun, challenging, dynamic, and it's
a great learning life experience to spend time on the domestic racing
circuit.

If small D3 teams can provide riders with those opportunties, I can't see
how that's a bad thing. Some riders will progress into bigger things ( ala
Mike Jones), some will stay at the same level which is cool with me if it's
cool with them, some will go back to a more local level to continue to
develop or see success, and some will have seen that they no longer want to
pursue the sport but still walk away having done something neat.

Of course there can be mismanagement and of course some people are [censored],
but that's happening with the Kelme's of the world as much as it's happening
to the small D3 teams. But I prefer to focus on outstanding programs such as
Jittery Joes and Sierra Nevada than I do on the occassional Noble House.

As for your financial estimations, I would suggest that a team to do it at a
fairly fairly competative would need $200k. But a team with good logistical
and product support, if they manage their schedule well, could do it pretty
darn good for 100k. 350k ( sad as it is) would make you one of the 6 teams
in the country if managed correctly. BTW, for women cut all of that in half.

Bill

"looking at the glass half full"

If you have your heart set on being [censored] at something that's damaging to
the sport, forget about picking on the small D3 teams. As simple as it is,
the freaking out about drugs is spot on. I think that the thing that's most
threatening to the sport today is doping. It's discouraging riders, it's
turning off sponsors, and it's sucking the life out of people who otherwise
keep the sport afloat. I will not have a team in 2005 of any sort. I've gone
from putting on 8 events a year to one. And I really have no interest in
facilitating young talent away from scholarship sports such as swimming and
running into something where their long term success forces them to choose a
needle.

Quoted message said:

$9,000 CASH, like it's the mafia.

Quoted message said:

You pay 9k for "up to 9K or RETAIL value" of stuff, bike and equipment

Quoted message said:

is easily 5k, one month of racing is around 3K, and "up to" could mean

Quoted message said:

much less than 9k.

Quoted message said:

And you get to keep your uniform!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I guess it's cheaper than going to college, and you get to impress

Quoted message said:

people out on the local group ride, but here is the secret most pros

Quoted message said:

don't want to talk about, most d3 pros race on trust funds, or work

Quoted message said:

all winter and live like andy crater, traveling cycling hippie style,

Quoted message said:

they don't make anything, they lose money over the course of the

Quoted message said:

season. credit card debt for some, parental sponsorship for others,

Quoted message said:

thanks Mom! Erik Saunders and some select crit riders (crit pro?) on

Quoted message said:

real teams that last more than one season may make a living wage but

Quoted message said:

what about the rest of the field? I could name some names, but I don't

Quoted message said:

have to, just look at the big pro races and look at 60th to 145th

Quoted message said:

place, if they're on a big team with a credible team leader they may

Quoted message said:

be working for a team leader and getting a split, but who is subways

Quoted message said:

team leader? Remi McManus? A good rider but I doubt he needs much team

Quoted message said:

support to get 45th place.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

These guys are having fun and getting off on being a pro, which is

Quoted message said:

cool, but then they put up a front about all this "prize money" that

Quoted message said:

in reality goes to the same few riders, and the rest of the guys are

Quoted message said:

fighting over sunglass and tire primes. How much cash at early

Quoted message said:

california races, Redlands, VOS? Not much until June, and then you get

Quoted message said:

to try to win some prize money next to doped out Stefano Zanini. Good

Quoted message said:

Luck Sierra Nevada.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The little money there is left goes to Russians like Davidenko and

Quoted message said:

Italians like Frattini who come slumming in the USA when they can't

Quoted message said:

find a Euro-contract.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was a [censored] cat 1 for a few seasons and I used to just trip out at

Quoted message said:

the dudes on d3 teams and amatuer teams that were getting dropped

Quoted message said:

every day, not contributing to any team tactics, I remember them

Quoted message said:

because I was next to them at the back all season long, and 5 years

Quoted message said:

later, I still see them in 123rd place at every big race all season

Quoted message said:

long. Can't they just get hammered at local races?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A guy I know rode for a D3 team that had a $100,000 budget, they

Quoted message said:

didn't pay for anything, and the money was gone by july. Another

Quoted message said:

friend rode for a very well publicized nightmare of a D3 team that had

Quoted message said:

a 60K budget, lawsuits were filed over the team manager putting rental

Quoted message said:

vans of the RIDERS credit cards, promising to pay them back, and never

Quoted message said:

did, the money ran out. My friend did say it was a great experience to

Quoted message said:

do corestates, and other big races, but it was hardly a professional

Quoted message said:

team.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Finally, my favorite story, I was riding for a very small team, and we

Quoted message said:

had an ex Noble House "pro", who quit about 2 weeks into the season

Quoted message said:

because he wanted money and wasn't happy with a bike and kit. He said

Quoted message said:

the worse thing about Noble House falling through was he was building

Quoted message said:

a "custom house" for $500,000 and he had to wait a year because he was

Quoted message said:

busy

Quoted message said:

training to be a pro...rough story, I really felt for him. No job,

Quoted message said:

fake cycling career, and a 500k house, he was 26. He raced for a few

Quoted message said:

more seasons on D3 teams and never got a result, ever. He was a rich

Quoted message said:

guy, which is fine, good for him, but he pretended he had a real

Quoted message said:

cycling career when his resume had like four results from races in his

Quoted message said:

home state you've never heard of.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I believe Lieswyn when he wrote that only a handfull of riders were

Quoted message said:

making a living in the USA racing bikes, so people should start

Quoted message said:

getting real and admitting they race for fun, and pay for the pleasure

Quoted message said:

of being pros instead of talking about all the money they earn.

Quoted message said:

Selling some tires you won at a crit on ebay is not making money. The

Quoted message said:

teams may be good stepping stones for a select few talented riders who

Quoted message said:

move on to bigger teams, but most of those guys are paying to race,

Quoted message said:

and it's expensive, at least 25k a season to do a full schedule.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe I'm wrong and dudes on Realitybikes.com and Tokyo Joes and West

Quoted message said:

Virginia and COX/OLN and Sportsbook.com, etc. were all making money

Quoted message said:

and not spending it all season long. Jason Wadell, care to comment,

Quoted message said:

you work for a living, what do you think

Quoted message said:

of Subway Express? Do riders on Jelly Belly make a living, or are they

Quoted message said:

Trustifarians rolling on dubs with no visible means of support? Some

Quoted message said:

of us want to know.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And yes, I know velonews had an article about d3 teams being all

Quoted message said:

hoopty and poor, but it never got down to the the bottom of how these

Quoted message said:

guys afford to do every race, all year long, all around the country

Quoted message said:

(and hit the bermuda GP just for fun at the end of the season), year

Quoted message said:

after year.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

9 rider team, 20k a rider expenses = 180K

Quoted message said:

9 rider team , 12k a year salary = 108K

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

288K before management expenses and support, so let's say 400-500K for

Quoted message said:

a real pro team. So most teams with budgets under 200K don't even pay

Quoted message said:

expenses.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So all I'm saying is if mom and day are supporting you, stop acting

Quoted message said:

the euro-pro. Have fun, and I which you luck, soprojones got off west

Quoted message said:

virginia, and he's on a real team, rolling in an audi and has a german

Quoted message said:

style metal basement room and everything, so you gotta start

"Bill Laudien" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"mike schatzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

I, for one, appreciate the insight both of you have provided.

-WG (Webcor _amateur_ team)

Wow. Our budget is all of $10k plus whatever product we get. How exactly do you talk a company out of $100 grand? I'm having a hard time getting $5k out of anyone.
Shhheeeeiiiit. With $500k I could, dare I say, take over the world???

Goddamn this is a good post.

Magilla

mike schatzman said:

$9,000 CASH, like it's the mafia.
You pay 9k for "up to 9K or RETAIL value" of stuff, bike and equipment
is easily 5k, one month of racing is around 3K, and "up to" could mean
much less than 9k.
And you get to keep your uniform!

I guess it's cheaper than going to college, and you get to impress
people out on the local group ride, but here is the secret most pros
don't want to talk about, most d3 pros race on trust funds, or work
all winter and live like andy crater, traveling cycling hippie style,
they don't make anything, they lose money over the course of the
season. credit card debt for some, parental sponsorship for others,
thanks Mom!
Erik Saunders and some select crit riders (crit pro?) on real teams
that last more than one season may make a living wage but what about
the rest of the field? I could name some names, but I don't have to,
just look at the big pro races and look at 60th to 145th place, if
they're on a big team with a credible team leader they may be working
for a team leader and getting a split, but who is subways team leader?
Remi McManus? A good rider but I doubt he needs much team support to
get 45th place.

These guys are having fun and getting off on being a pro, which is
cool, but then they put up a front about all this "prize money" that
in reality goes to the same few riders, and the rest of the guys are
fighting over sunglass and tire primes. How much cash at early
california races, Redlands, VOS? Not much until June, and then you get
to try to win some prize money next to doped out Stefano Zanini. Good
Luck Sierra Nevada.

The little money there is left goes to Russians like Davidenko and
Italians like Frattini who come slumming in the USA when they can't
find a Euro-contract.

I was a [censored] cat 1 for a few seasons and I used to just trip out at
the dudes on d3 teams and amatuer teams that were getting dropped
every day, not contributing to any team tactics, I remember them
because I was next to them at the back all season long, and 5 years
later, I still see them in 123rd place at every big race all season
long. Can't they just get hammered at local races?

A guy I know rode for a D3 team that had a $100,000 budget, they
didn't pay for anything, and the money was gone by july. Another
friend rode for a very well publicized nightmare of a D3 team that had
a 60K budget, lawsuits were filed over the team manager putting rental
vans of the RIDERS credit cards, promising to pay them back, and never
did, the money ran out. My friend did say it was a great experience to
do corestates, and other big races, but it was hardly a professional
team.

Finally, my favorite story, I was riding for a very small team, and we
had an ex Noble House "pro", who quit about 2 weeks into the season
because he wanted money and wasn't happy with a bike and kit.
He said the worse thing about Noble House falling through was he was
building a
"custom house" for $500,000 and he had to wait a year because he was
busy
training to be a pro...rough story, I really felt for him. No job,
fake cycling career, and a 500k house, he was 26. He raced for a few
more seasons on D3 teams and never got a result, ever. He was a rich
guy, which is fine, good for him, but he pretended he had a real
cycling career when his resume had like four results from races in his
home state you've never heard of.

I believe Lieswyn when he wrote that only a handfull of riders were
making a living in the USA racing bikes, so people should start
getting real and admitting they race for fun, and pay for the pleasure
of being pros instead of talking about all the money they earn.
Selling some tires you won at a crit on ebay is not making money.
The teams may be good stepping stones for a select few talented riders
who move on to bigger teams, but most of those guys are paying to
race, and it's expensive, at least 25k a season to do a full schedule.

Maybe I'm wrong and dudes on Realitybikes.com and Tokyo Joes and West
Virginia and COX/OLN and Sportsbook.com, etc. were all making money
and not spending it all season long.
Jason Wadell, care to comment, you work for a living, what do you
think
of Subway Express? Do riders on Jelly Belly make a living, or are they
Trustifarians rolling on dubs with no visible means of support? Some
of us want to know.

And yes, I know velonews had an article about d3 teams being all
hoopty and poor, but it never got down to the the bottom of how these
guys afford to do every race, all year long, all around the country
(and hit the bermuda GP just for fun at the end of the season), year
after year.

9 rider team, 20k a rider expenses = 180K
9 rider team , 12k a year salary = 108K

288K before management expenses and support, so let's say 400-500K for
a real pro team. So most teams with budgets under 200K don't even pay
expenses.

So all I'm saying is if mom and day are supporting you, stop acting
the euro-pro. Have fun, and I which you luck, soprojones got off west
virginia, and he's on a real team, rolling in an audi and has a german
style metal basement room and everything, so you gotta start
somewhere.

mike schatzman said:

$9,000 CASH, like it's the mafia.
You pay 9k for "up to 9K or RETAIL value" of stuff, bike and

equipment

Quoted message said:

is easily 5k, one month of racing is around 3K, and "up to" could

mean

Quoted message said:

much less than 9k.
And you get to keep your uniform!

I guess it's cheaper than going to college, and you get to impress
people out on the local group ride, but here is the secret most pros
don't want to talk about, most d3 pros race on trust funds, or work
all winter and live like andy crater, traveling cycling hippie style,
they don't make anything, they lose money over the course of the
season. credit card debt for some, parental sponsorship for others,
thanks Mom!
Erik Saunders and some select crit riders (crit pro?) on real teams
that last more than one season may make a living wage but what about
the rest of the field? I could name some names, but I don't have to,
just look at the big pro races and look at 60th to 145th place, if
they're on a big team with a credible team leader they may be working
for a team leader and getting a split, but who is subways team

leader?

Quoted message said:

Remi McManus? A good rider but I doubt he needs much team support to
get 45th place.

These guys are having fun and getting off on being a pro, which is
cool, but then they put up a front about all this "prize money" that
in reality goes to the same few riders, and the rest of the guys are
fighting over sunglass and tire primes. How much cash at early
california races, Redlands, VOS? Not much until June, and then you

get

Quoted message said:

to try to win some prize money next to doped out Stefano Zanini. Good
Luck Sierra Nevada.

The little money there is left goes to Russians like Davidenko and
Italians like Frattini who come slumming in the USA when they can't
find a Euro-contract.

I was a [censored] cat 1 for a few seasons and I used to just trip out at
the dudes on d3 teams and amatuer teams that were getting dropped
every day, not contributing to any team tactics, I remember them
because I was next to them at the back all season long, and 5 years
later, I still see them in 123rd place at every big race all season
long. Can't they just get hammered at local races?

A guy I know rode for a D3 team that had a $100,000 budget, they
didn't pay for anything, and the money was gone by july. Another
friend rode for a very well publicized nightmare of a D3 team that

had

Quoted message said:

a 60K budget, lawsuits were filed over the team manager putting

rental

Quoted message said:

vans of the RIDERS credit cards, promising to pay them back, and

never

Quoted message said:

did, the money ran out. My friend did say it was a great experience

to

Quoted message said:

do corestates, and other big races, but it was hardly a professional
team.

Finally, my favorite story, I was riding for a very small team, and

we

Quoted message said:

had an ex Noble House "pro", who quit about 2 weeks into the season
because he wanted money and wasn't happy with a bike and kit.
He said the worse thing about Noble House falling through was he was
building a
"custom house" for $500,000 and he had to wait a year because he was
busy
training to be a pro...rough story, I really felt for him. No job,
fake cycling career, and a 500k house, he was 26. He raced for a few
more seasons on D3 teams and never got a result, ever. He was a rich
guy, which is fine, good for him, but he pretended he had a real
cycling career when his resume had like four results from races in

his

Quoted message said:

home state you've never heard of.

I believe Lieswyn when he wrote that only a handfull of riders were
making a living in the USA racing bikes, so people should start
getting real and admitting they race for fun, and pay for the

pleasure

Quoted message said:

of being pros instead of talking about all the money they earn.
Selling some tires you won at a crit on ebay is not making money.
The teams may be good stepping stones for a select few talented

riders

Quoted message said:

who move on to bigger teams, but most of those guys are paying to
race, and it's expensive, at least 25k a season to do a full

schedule.

Quoted message said:

Maybe I'm wrong and dudes on Realitybikes.com and Tokyo Joes and West
Virginia and COX/OLN and Sportsbook.com, etc. were all making money
and not spending it all season long.
Jason Wadell, care to comment, you work for a living, what do you
think
of Subway Express? Do riders on Jelly Belly make a living, or are

they

Quoted message said:

Trustifarians rolling on dubs with no visible means of support? Some
of us want to know.

And yes, I know velonews had an article about d3 teams being all
hoopty and poor, but it never got down to the the bottom of how these
guys afford to do every race, all year long, all around the country
(and hit the bermuda GP just for fun at the end of the season), year
after year.

9 rider team, 20k a rider expenses = 180K
9 rider team , 12k a year salary = 108K

288K before management expenses and support, so let's say 400-500K

for

Quoted message said:

a real pro team. So most teams with budgets under 200K don't even pay
expenses.

So all I'm saying is if mom and day are supporting you, stop acting
the euro-pro. Have fun, and I which you luck, soprojones got off west
virginia, and he's on a real team, rolling in an audi and has a

german

Quoted message said:

style metal basement room and everything, so you gotta start
somewhere.

The sound you here is me clapping. I couldn't have said it any better.
PERFECT POST! That is what I have been trying to say for years.BRAVO!
RVD

mike schatzman said:

$9,000 CASH, like it's the mafia.
You pay 9k for "up to 9K or RETAIL value" of stuff, bike and

equipment

Quoted message said:

is easily 5k, one month of racing is around 3K, and "up to" could

mean

Quoted message said:

much less than 9k.
And you get to keep your uniform!

I guess it's cheaper than going to college, and you get to impress
people out on the local group ride, but here is the secret most pros
don't want to talk about, most d3 pros race on trust funds, or work
all winter and live like andy crater, traveling cycling hippie style,
they don't make anything, they lose money over the course of the
season. credit card debt for some, parental sponsorship for others,
thanks Mom!
Erik Saunders and some select crit riders (crit pro?) on real teams
that last more than one season may make a living wage but what about
the rest of the field? I could name some names, but I don't have to,
just look at the big pro races and look at 60th to 145th place, if
they're on a big team with a credible team leader they may be working
for a team leader and getting a split, but who is subways team

leader?

Quoted message said:

Remi McManus? A good rider but I doubt he needs much team support to
get 45th place.

These guys are having fun and getting off on being a pro, which is
cool, but then they put up a front about all this "prize money" that
in reality goes to the same few riders, and the rest of the guys are
fighting over sunglass and tire primes. How much cash at early
california races, Redlands, VOS? Not much until June, and then you

get

Quoted message said:

to try to win some prize money next to doped out Stefano Zanini. Good
Luck Sierra Nevada.

The little money there is left goes to Russians like Davidenko and
Italians like Frattini who come slumming in the USA when they can't
find a Euro-contract.

I was a [censored] cat 1 for a few seasons and I used to just trip out at
the dudes on d3 teams and amatuer teams that were getting dropped
every day, not contributing to any team tactics, I remember them
because I was next to them at the back all season long, and 5 years
later, I still see them in 123rd place at every big race all season
long. Can't they just get hammered at local races?

A guy I know rode for a D3 team that had a $100,000 budget, they
didn't pay for anything, and the money was gone by july. Another
friend rode for a very well publicized nightmare of a D3 team that

had

Quoted message said:

a 60K budget, lawsuits were filed over the team manager putting

rental

Quoted message said:

vans of the RIDERS credit cards, promising to pay them back, and

never

Quoted message said:

did, the money ran out. My friend did say it was a great experience

to

Quoted message said:

do corestates, and other big races, but it was hardly a professional
team.

Finally, my favorite story, I was riding for a very small team, and

we

Quoted message said:

had an ex Noble House "pro", who quit about 2 weeks into the season
because he wanted money and wasn't happy with a bike and kit.
He said the worse thing about Noble House falling through was he was
building a
"custom house" for $500,000 and he had to wait a year because he was
busy
training to be a pro...rough story, I really felt for him. No job,
fake cycling career, and a 500k house, he was 26. He raced for a few
more seasons on D3 teams and never got a result, ever. He was a rich
guy, which is fine, good for him, but he pretended he had a real
cycling career when his resume had like four results from races in

his

Quoted message said:

home state you've never heard of.

I believe Lieswyn when he wrote that only a handfull of riders were
making a living in the USA racing bikes, so people should start
getting real and admitting they race for fun, and pay for the

pleasure

Quoted message said:

of being pros instead of talking about all the money they earn.
Selling some tires you won at a crit on ebay is not making money.
The teams may be good stepping stones for a select few talented

riders

Quoted message said:

who move on to bigger teams, but most of those guys are paying to
race, and it's expensive, at least 25k a season to do a full

schedule.

Quoted message said:

Maybe I'm wrong and dudes on Realitybikes.com and Tokyo Joes and West
Virginia and COX/OLN and Sportsbook.com, etc. were all making money
and not spending it all season long.
Jason Wadell, care to comment, you work for a living, what do you
think
of Subway Express? Do riders on Jelly Belly make a living, or are

they

Quoted message said:

Trustifarians rolling on dubs with no visible means of support? Some
of us want to know.

And yes, I know velonews had an article about d3 teams being all
hoopty and poor, but it never got down to the the bottom of how these
guys afford to do every race, all year long, all around the country
(and hit the bermuda GP just for fun at the end of the season), year
after year.

9 rider team, 20k a rider expenses = 180K
9 rider team , 12k a year salary = 108K

288K before management expenses and support, so let's say 400-500K

for

Quoted message said:

a real pro team. So most teams with budgets under 200K don't even pay
expenses.

So all I'm saying is if mom and day are supporting you, stop acting
the euro-pro. Have fun, and I which you luck, soprojones got off west
virginia, and he's on a real team, rolling in an audi and has a

german

Quoted message said:

style metal basement room and everything, so you gotta start
somewhere.

The sound you here is me clapping. I couldn't have said it any better.
PERFECT POST! That is what I have been trying to say for years.BRAVO!
RVD

Excellent stuff Mike. Great riding with you, too.

crit pro

Dude,

Subway is a joke but, just because some people have it bad doesn't mean the
majority do. Most of these D3 teams don't spend money on management, or have
one manager and hire help, or get volunteers. This cuts down drastically on
cost.
Also, your figures are all skewed. It doesn't cost $20,000 a rider a year.
Most riders travel by car and or travel with the team for months at a time.
I would say it cost more like $4000 for travel and then most of these guys
even bigger budget teams are utilizing host housing. Not only that, in the
bigger races the promoter pay for hotels and some reimburse for some travel
expenses. Then you just have salaries and gruppo costs. Most teams get
everything but gruppos for free. So, slap around 15 gruppos at $400-500 cost
and you got another $6000-$7500. Lastly, salaries. Lots of riders are
exactly as you discribe they ride for free and make prize money these guys
are atleast making $3-4K a season in prize money. But, I would say there are
3-5 guys on small D3 teams that are taking in a living. This might not be a
Beamer, house and wife with kids living. but for a young guy just doing what
he wants to do it's not that bad. And it sure beats going to work for a
[censored] 8-5. Not only that you mentioned that most of these guys are selling
[censored] on ebay to get by but, that is just the name of the game. These guys
use there [censored] and then get new [censored] so they sell there old [censored]. Or they
don't need some wheels or tires or clothing they won so they sell it. It's
just an added perk and some extra income. The other guys on these D3 team s
aren't making [censored] but, they are trying to move up and/or doing what they
love.

I think there is a big misconception with how these riders appear. Everyone
thinks that riders are trying to act all europro and snobby or cocky but,
the bottom line is the sponsors and teams are trying to make them look as
euro pro as possible by slicking them out in some sweet looking duds and a
pimp ride. If that makes a guy look like a yuppy then I don't know what you
can do. Bottom line if you talk to any of these guys even the ones that are
a little better of financially they are living frugally and just trying to
get by.

Damn this is getting to be a long response. But, those figures are more like
this:
$45000 to travel the entire team
$7500 bike expenses
$30-60K salaries or stipends
And most of these D3 budgets are over 150K so you can fill in the misc.
expenses or inflate the numbers. But, it doesn't come out to even close to
288K.

"mike schatzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

$9,000 CASH, like it's the mafia.
You pay 9k for "up to 9K or RETAIL value" of stuff, bike and equipment
is easily 5k, one month of racing is around 3K, and "up to" could mean
much less than 9k.
And you get to keep your uniform!

I guess it's cheaper than going to college, and you get to impress
people out on the local group ride, but here is the secret most pros
don't want to talk about, most d3 pros race on trust funds, or work
all winter and live like andy crater, traveling cycling hippie style,
they don't make anything, they lose money over the course of the
season. credit card debt for some, parental sponsorship for others,
thanks Mom!
Erik Saunders and some select crit riders (crit pro?) on real teams
that last more than one season may make a living wage but what about
the rest of the field? I could name some names, but I don't have to,
just look at the big pro races and look at 60th to 145th place, if
they're on a big team with a credible team leader they may be working
for a team leader and getting a split, but who is subways team leader?
Remi McManus? A good rider but I doubt he needs much team support to
get 45th place.

These guys are having fun and getting off on being a pro, which is
cool, but then they put up a front about all this "prize money" that
in reality goes to the same few riders, and the rest of the guys are
fighting over sunglass and tire primes. How much cash at early
california races, Redlands, VOS? Not much until June, and then you get
to try to win some prize money next to doped out Stefano Zanini. Good
Luck Sierra Nevada.

The little money there is left goes to Russians like Davidenko and
Italians like Frattini who come slumming in the USA when they can't
find a Euro-contract.

I was a [censored] cat 1 for a few seasons and I used to just trip out at
the dudes on d3 teams and amatuer teams that were getting dropped
every day, not contributing to any team tactics, I remember them
because I was next to them at the back all season long, and 5 years
later, I still see them in 123rd place at every big race all season
long. Can't they just get hammered at local races?

A guy I know rode for a D3 team that had a $100,000 budget, they
didn't pay for anything, and the money was gone by july. Another
friend rode for a very well publicized nightmare of a D3 team that had
a 60K budget, lawsuits were filed over the team manager putting rental
vans of the RIDERS credit cards, promising to pay them back, and never
did, the money ran out. My friend did say it was a great experience to
do corestates, and other big races, but it was hardly a professional
team.

Finally, my favorite story, I was riding for a very small team, and we
had an ex Noble House "pro", who quit about 2 weeks into the season
because he wanted money and wasn't happy with a bike and kit.
He said the worse thing about Noble House falling through was he was
building a
"custom house" for $500,000 and he had to wait a year because he was
busy
training to be a pro...rough story, I really felt for him. No job,
fake cycling career, and a 500k house, he was 26. He raced for a few
more seasons on D3 teams and never got a result, ever. He was a rich
guy, which is fine, good for him, but he pretended he had a real
cycling career when his resume had like four results from races in his
home state you've never heard of.

I believe Lieswyn when he wrote that only a handfull of riders were
making a living in the USA racing bikes, so people should start
getting real and admitting they race for fun, and pay for the pleasure
of being pros instead of talking about all the money they earn.
Selling some tires you won at a crit on ebay is not making money.
The teams may be good stepping stones for a select few talented riders
who move on to bigger teams, but most of those guys are paying to
race, and it's expensive, at least 25k a season to do a full schedule.

Maybe I'm wrong and dudes on Realitybikes.com and Tokyo Joes and West
Virginia and COX/OLN and Sportsbook.com, etc. were all making money
and not spending it all season long.
Jason Wadell, care to comment, you work for a living, what do you
think
of Subway Express? Do riders on Jelly Belly make a living, or are they
Trustifarians rolling on dubs with no visible means of support? Some
of us want to know.

And yes, I know velonews had an article about d3 teams being all
hoopty and poor, but it never got down to the the bottom of how these
guys afford to do every race, all year long, all around the country
(and hit the bermuda GP just for fun at the end of the season), year
after year.

9 rider team, 20k a rider expenses = 180K
9 rider team , 12k a year salary = 108K

288K before management expenses and support, so let's say 400-500K for
a real pro team. So most teams with budgets under 200K don't even pay
expenses.

So all I'm saying is if mom and day are supporting you, stop acting
the euro-pro. Have fun, and I which you luck, soprojones got off west
virginia, and he's on a real team, rolling in an audi and has a german
style metal basement room and everything, so you gotta start
somewhere.

pedalchick said:

Wow. Our budget is all of $10k plus whatever product we get. How
exactly do you talk a company out of $100 grand? I'm having a hard
time getting $5k out of anyone.
Shhheeeeiiiit. With $500k I could, dare I say, take over the world???

You could buy a [censored] 3-bedroom with a small yard in Santa Rosa. It
would be your own world.

g-spot <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

pedalchick said:

Wow. Our budget is all of $10k plus whatever product we get. How
exactly do you talk a company out of $100 grand? I'm having a hard
time getting $5k out of anyone.
Shhheeeeiiiit. With $500k I could, dare I say, take over the world???

You could buy a [censored] 3-bedroom with a small yard in Santa Rosa. It
would be your own world.

Or a 15-year old, 3-BR condo in San Rafael with zero yard.

In article <[email hidden]>, Papai

Digital said:

g-spot <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

pedalchick said:

Wow. Our budget is all of $10k plus whatever product we get. How
exactly do you talk a company out of $100 grand? I'm having a hard
time getting $5k out of anyone.
Shhheeeeiiiit. With $500k I could, dare I say, take over the world???

You could buy a [censored] 3-bedroom with a small yard in Santa Rosa. It
would be your own world.

Or a 15-year old, 3-BR condo in San Rafael with zero yard.

Y'all need to go about 2 hours east for more reasonable alternatives.

Last Friday we broke ground on our new house.

-WG

in the two-nine you could become the emperor of a few big slummy apartment
rows... and generate a positive cashflow!... when you get that money call me...

I'm doing my second hard race of the day in a "pro" 1,2 3 field and I'm
hanging near the back dying in the crosswinds and there's a HealthNet guy
back there with me and not looking much better than I am. I'm thinking,
you're a pro, what are you doing back here with me?!

Now I know.

-WG

warren <warren@[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article dcing.google.com said:

g-spot <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

pedalchick wrote:
>
> Wow. Our budget is all of $10k plus whatever product we get. How
> exactly do you talk a company out of $100 grand? I'm having a hard
> time getting $5k out of anyone.
> Shhheeeeiiiit. With $500k I could, dare I say, take over the world???

You could buy a [censored] 3-bedroom with a small yard in Santa Rosa. It
would be your own world.

Or a 15-year old, 3-BR condo in San Rafael with zero yard.

Y'all need to go about 2 hours east for more reasonable alternatives.
Last Friday we broke ground on our new house.

I start melting when the temperature rises above 80F.
Good luck on the brand new home WG!

-KP

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Shhheeeeiiiit. With $500k I could, dare I say, take over the

world???

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You could buy a [censored] 3-bedroom with a small yard in Santa Rosa. It
would be your own world.

Or a 15-year old, 3-BR condo in San Rafael with zero yard.

Y'all need to go about 2 hours east for more reasonable alternatives.

Is that 2 hours by jet?

http://www.channeloklahoma.com/sports/3832004/detail.html

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

http://www.channeloklahoma.com/sports/3832004/detail.html

That's about 9.7 square miles of property.

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Carl Sundquist" <carlse in message

Quoted message said:

http://www.channeloklahoma.com/sports/3832004/detail.html

That's about 9.7 square miles of property.

"... The [6000+ acre] property also has a 24-by-84 foot quail-raising
facility with a 30-by-100 foot fly pen.

Bone said the centerpiece of the property is a four-bedroom ranch
house with two bathrooms, a fireplace and a large front porch.

The ranch also has a two-bedroom hunter's lodge, a bunkhouse and
numerous barns and outbuildings."

Note to RBR -- a barn there is reserved for Magilla and Crit Pro!

LOL, Ken

In article <[email hidden]>,

g-spot said:

pedalchick said:

Wow. Our budget is all of $10k plus whatever product we get. How
exactly do you talk a company out of $100 grand? I'm having a hard
time getting $5k out of anyone.
Shhheeeeiiiit. With $500k I could, dare I say, take over the world???

You could buy a [censored] 3-bedroom with a small yard in Santa Rosa. It
would be your own world.

But you could do better up the road in Petaluma.

--
tanx,
Howard

"It looks like the squirrel's been showing everybody
where he keeps his nuts."

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Why is this so bad? Really, there are guys riding for teams who don't
pay anything, maybe even get a little something and suck! When one
considers how much it costs to race solo and with no support just
trying to scrape by why not just pay the cash and get the support. If
you suck, hey its your buck, but maybe you're pretty good and just
needed some support...

Again, its your buck.

CH