Bitza

Maurice C said:

Hi,
Maurice C here, and I'm new to cycling and this forum. I have a problem which I can't get to the bottom of: I have a 52/39 Shimao Tiagra double, with a Shimano 600 rear derailleur shifting on a Sachs-Maillard 8spd 13/22.
Problem: I can adjust the derailleur to go up the range smoothly, but not down...it will either jump one gera or over-select the gear, or I can get it to go down the range but not up with the same problem occuring in revers. I have followed about three different explanations of what to do, all to no avail. Help!!! Am I completely thick or is there a very simple explanation of compatability?

What type of shifter are you using in conjunction with the 600 RD? Tiagra (9-speed) as well as the crankset?

serenaslu said:

What type of shifter are you using in conjunction with the 600 RD? Tiagra (9-speed) as well as the crankset?

Oops! Mirage I think STI front dreailleur is a Xenon. Does that help?

Maurice C said:

Oops! Mirage I think STI front dreailleur is a Xenon. Does that help?

Clear up a little of the confusion you have...

STI stands for Shimano Total Integration. It's a technology Shimano has developed that incorporates SIS (Shimano Indexed Shifting) and brake levers into one neat package. Campagnolo has developed a similar system and called it Ergo levers. The TIAGRA and 600 are from SHIMANO, while the MIRAGE and XENON is CAMPAGNOLO.

For the drivetrain to work properly, the shifting system (levers) must be compatible with the derailleurs (front and rear). Simple rule of thumb: Keep them within one manufacturer.

Even if both systems used indexed shifting, derailleur throw distance versus length of cable moved (pulled or slacked by the lever) is different for Campy and Shimano. To complicate things further, cog spacing on an 8s cassette is different on 9s. The throw distance depends on this cog spacing.

e_guevara said:

Clear up a little of the confusion you have...

STI stands for Shimano Total Integration. It's a technology Shimano has developed that incorporates SIS (Shimano Indexed Shifting) and brake levers into one neat package. Campagnolo has developed a similar system and called it Ergo levers. The TIAGRA and 600 are from SHIMANO, while the MIRAGE and XENON is CAMPAGNOLO.

For the drivetrain to work properly, the shifting system (levers) must be compatible with the derailleurs (front and rear). Simple rule of thumb: Keep them within one manufacturer.

Even if both systems used indexed shifting, derailleur throw distance versus length of cable moved (pulled or slacked by the lever) is different for Campy and Shimano. To complicate things further, cog spacing on an 8s cassette is different on 9s. The throw distance depends on this cog spacing.

Thank you for that valuable info. Its not the only thing I'm confused about, but that of course could be attributed to my age. I'll save up my money and get full compatability set. Once again thanks to you and all the others who have taken the time to sort me out.

Maurice C said:

Thank you for that valuable info. Its not the only thing I'm confused about, but that of course could be attributed to my age. I'll save up my money and get full compatability set. Once again thanks to you and all the others who have taken the time to sort me out.

Just change your derailleurs, it would be cheaper, although Campy components are more expensive than Shimano. A Xenon rear derailluer would do just fine. Also, advise you to upgrade to a 9s cogset.

e_guevara said:

Just change your derailleurs, it would be cheaper, although Campy components are more expensive than Shimano. A Xenon rear derailluer would do just fine. Also, advise you to upgrade to a 9s cogset.

OK, that's sounds like good advise. I assume that a 9 will be available in a freewheel? as I do not have a cassette set up. But if the Xenon rear D. will allow me to use the 8 I have then I'll go for that. Thanks again for the help, getting any sensible responses here in France is a tad difficult. Not from the lanuage point of view, it's just the French don't seem to want to give out advise in case it backfires on them. Ce la Vie.

Maurice C said:

OK, that's sounds like good advise. I assume that a 9 will be available in a freewheel? as I do not have a cassette set up. But if the Xenon rear D. will allow me to use the 8 I have then I'll go for that. Thanks again for the help, getting any sensible responses here in France is a tad difficult. Not from the lanuage point of view, it's just the French don't seem to want to give out advise in case it backfires on them. Ce la Vie.

Is your Mirage Ergo Lever an 8-speed (c 1998)? I just assumed it was a current Mirage (9-speed). If it is an 8-speed, then no need to change your freewheel.

With regard to a 9s freewheel, I doubt if you could find any. Manufacturers shifted to freehubs/cassettes due to bent axles from higher speed freewheels.

e_guevara said:

Is your Mirage Ergo Lever an 8-speed (c 1998)? I just assumed it was a current Mirage (9-speed). If it is an 8-speed, then no need to change your freewheel.

With regard to a 9s freewheel, I doubt if you could find any. Manufacturers shifted to freehubs/cassettes due to bent axles from higher speed freewheels.

Now don't get too technical for me. When I tried them up and down they go for the full 9 so I'm hoping I've got it right and they are current shifters. Now its funny you should mention bent axles...mine has just the merest hint of a bend and very noticable when the wheel is spun fast, it makes the rear derailleur move fractionally. So correct me if I'm wrong, I should be looking for a Campy Cassette hub etc along with a changed rear derailleur and hopefully it will right all wrongs!! Famous last words of course.

Maurice C said:

Now don't get too technical for me. When I tried them up and down they go for the full 9 so I'm hoping I've got it right and they are current shifters. Now its funny you should mention bent axles...mine has just the merest hint of a bend and very noticable when the wheel is spun fast, it makes the rear derailleur move fractionally. So correct me if I'm wrong, I should be looking for a Campy Cassette hub etc along with a changed rear derailleur and hopefully it will right all wrongs!! Famous last words of course.

Well, that's one way to check it 🙂 Another one is by looking at the hoods. If you got 'pointy' hoods, it's a pre-1999 (8-speed), if the hoods are rounded, it's the current one (9-speed).

Bent axles happen because the axle is unsupported from the hub to the dropouts on the frame (where the freewheel is) - the wider the gap means a more bent axle. It was not much of an issue on 7s and below freewheels, as the width of the freewheel was not enough to cause the axle to flex (and bend) in most cases. As the clusters increased to 8s, it meant a wider gap. Freehubs correct this problem by putting the bearings closer to the end.

As I mentioned earlier, cog spacing on an 8s cogset is different from a 9s, with the 9s being closer to each other. Shifting would be unreliable if you stick with the 8s freewheel. *If ever* you find a 9s freewheel, it is most likely that you would end up replacing your axles over and over because of bending. Buy a Campy rear freehub along with with rear derailleur and a 9s cassette. It would give you less to worry about in the long run.

Just curious, who built up your bike anyway?

Cheers

e_guevara said:

Well, that's one way to check it 🙂 Another one is by looking at the hoods. If you got 'pointy' hoods, it's a pre-1999 (8-speed), if the hoods are rounded, it's the current one (9-speed).

Bent axles happen because the axle is unsupported from the hub to the dropouts on the frame (where the freewheel is) - the wider the gap means a more bent axle. It was not much of an issue on 7s and below freewheels, as the width of the freewheel was not enough to cause the axle to flex (and bend) in most cases. As the clusters increased to 8s, it meant a wider gap. Freehubs correct this problem by putting the bearings closer to the end.

As I mentioned earlier, cog spacing on an 8s cogset is different from a 9s, with the 9s being closer to each other. Shifting would be unreliable if you stick with the 8s freewheel. *If ever* you find a 9s freewheel, it is most likely that you would end up replacing your axles over and over because of bending. Buy a Campy rear freehub along with with rear derailleur and a 9s cassette. It would give you less to worry about in the long run.

Just curious, who built up your bike anyway?

Cheers

OK here goes, I'm not sure how much space I can use...To put you in the picture, a few years ago I was severely smashed up in a head on between two lorries, and have been pretty secondhand ever since. I had an ols dog of a bike...531 frame and too big for me. I was seen by a local sports cyclists, who very graciously sold me some of the running parts and has given me an Ally Paul Donohue frame which is the right size for me. Because I have very little if any, spare money I have had to scavenge where I could to get parts ie: s/h. This friend, for that is what he has become has helped me put together the bike, so I could get some better use out of my leg etc. Since in my younger days I was a professional GP m/c road racer, I still have a competitive instinct, which is very difficult to kerb, and now I am getting fitter by the day, I have been bitten by the bug, and ride about 250 / 300 klicks per week. My average speed is about 26kph and I have been trying to keep in the 80 / 90 cadence bracket. By the way I have only been riding bikes for the past 2.5 months...I'm 59 and the last time I rode a cycle in anger was 45 years ago.
Frame Paul Donohue Ally 48cm, Mirage 8 speed shifters, Tiagra 52 / 39(170mm) and Sachs Maillard 13 / 22 freewheel, Mavic 501 wheels and hubs, Look type pedals, 700X20 Michilin's. Apart from that I am just loving what I am doing, the help that others like yourself are prepared to give, because I don't have much in the way of to return. Plus I have burnt off at least 9lbs of body fat and my old legs are working not quite like a young'ens but they are working.

Cheers

Maurice C