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#1 flaw in hydrogen future

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rec.bicycles.soc
Published
11 October 2004
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15 October 2004
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Robert Haston
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  1. Loved the Hydrogen Economy Out of Reach Article - Thanks Jack.

    I forgot where I read it, but the following is what I see as why a "hydrogen
    future" just doesn't make sense.

    1. The most valuable form of energy is electricity. That is why we burn
    oil (an incredible raw material for manufacturing) to make electricity.

    2. Turning electricity into hydrogen (or vice-versa), wastes at least a
    fourth of this energy each way. So making electricity into hydrogen and
    back again loses nearly half the energy, not including all the losses of
    building and maintaining a hydrogen transportation system, or building and
    maintaining the vehicles, and their streets, support services, etc.

    Or you could just use the electricity to power streetcar networks. By the
    way, you could construct an urban micro rail system (think bumper cars, only
    bigger) that emulates the private auto. Base it on Europe's Stratauto
    neighborhood rental system. You punch up a screen on your cell phone and
    order up a car of choice. It pulls up to meet you at the corner, and off
    you go. You and your passengers punch in and share - being charged by the
    minute. I say by the minute instead of the mile because this provides a
    disincentive to travel during rush hours.

    This also eliminates all the energy, money and space wasted on 200 million
    cars sitting around 23 hours a day rusting.

    There are lots of answers, but they all involve using 80% less energy to
    build and maintain vehicles and get around. Translate this as less money
    for industry. The real lesson is carrying 100 kilo people around
    individually in 2,000 kilo vehicles isn't sustainable.

    As to the fact that wind power (the only truly viable alternative) is
    isolated in northern and coastal areas, it would be more efficient to build
    solar panels there and ship them south.

    --
    Robert Haston
    Satellite Beach, FL

  2. It is the most explosive gas known.
    The flame is invisible.
    To store it at a Gas station, it must be liquefied, -253 degree C.
    A small spark at a station would take out the Block in less than a second.

    "Robert Haston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Loved the Hydrogen Economy Out of Reach Article - Thanks Jack.

    I forgot where I read it, but the following is what I see as why a


    "hydrogen

    Quoted message said:

    future" just doesn't make sense.

    1. The most valuable form of energy is electricity. That is why we burn
    oil (an incredible raw material for manufacturing) to make electricity.

    2. Turning electricity into hydrogen (or vice-versa), wastes at least a
    fourth of this energy each way. So making electricity into hydrogen and
    back again loses nearly half the energy, not including all the losses of
    building and maintaining a hydrogen transportation system, or building and
    maintaining the vehicles, and their streets, support services, etc.

    Or you could just use the electricity to power streetcar networks. By the
    way, you could construct an urban micro rail system (think bumper cars,


    only

    Quoted message said:

    bigger) that emulates the private auto. Base it on Europe's Stratauto
    neighborhood rental system. You punch up a screen on your cell phone and
    order up a car of choice. It pulls up to meet you at the corner, and off
    you go. You and your passengers punch in and share - being charged by the
    minute. I say by the minute instead of the mile because this provides a
    disincentive to travel during rush hours.

    This also eliminates all the energy, money and space wasted on 200 million
    cars sitting around 23 hours a day rusting.

    There are lots of answers, but they all involve using 80% less energy to
    build and maintain vehicles and get around. Translate this as less money
    for industry. The real lesson is carrying 100 kilo people around
    individually in 2,000 kilo vehicles isn't sustainable.

    As to the fact that wind power (the only truly viable alternative) is
    isolated in northern and coastal areas, it would be more efficient to


    build

    Quoted message said:

    solar panels there and ship them south.

    --
    Robert Haston
    Satellite Beach, FL

  3. Quoted message said:

    It is the most explosive gas known.

    =v= Gasoline isn't exactly unexplosive. Hydrogen at least goes
    up, whereas gasoline vapors are heavy and spreads flames around.
    <_Jym_>

  4. "Jym Dyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It is the most explosive gas known.

    =v= Gasoline isn't exactly unexplosive. Hydrogen at least goes
    up, whereas gasoline vapors are heavy and spreads flames around.
    <_Jym_>

    A common misperception. Hydrogen goes up when in a balloon.
    When released as a gas, it mixes instantly with air spreading outward, with
    some upward. This is very fast as the molecule is the smallest of the
    gasses. They fully tested Hydrogen as a fuel in the early 80's, and found
    that it was simply too dangerous for the general public to handle. Good for
    fuel cells on the space shuttle.

  5. tellex said:

    "Jym Dyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It is the most explosive gas known.

    =v= Gasoline isn't exactly unexplosive. Hydrogen at least goes
    up, whereas gasoline vapors are heavy and spreads flames around.
    <_Jym_>

    A common misperception. Hydrogen goes up when in a balloon.
    When released as a gas, it mixes instantly with air spreading outward, with
    some upward. This is very fast as the molecule is the smallest of the
    gasses. They fully tested Hydrogen as a fuel in the early 80's, and found
    that it was simply too dangerous for the general public to handle. Good for
    fuel cells on the space shuttle.

    Apparently some people disagree with you. See

    <http://www.hydrogenus.com/newsletter/ad32btob.htm>
    <http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/codes/>
    <http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/hysafety/hysafety.htm>
    <http://energy.inel.gov/fossil/hydrogen/pdf/h2safetyreport.pdf>

    Note that most of the above are links to government sites. BTW, one
    of these URLs claims that hydrogen is less dangerous to handle than
    propane.

    --
    My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

  6. "Bill Z." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    tellex said:

    "Jym Dyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    > It is the most explosive gas known.

    =v= Gasoline isn't exactly unexplosive. Hydrogen at least goes
    up, whereas gasoline vapors are heavy and spreads flames around.
    <_Jym_>

    A common misperception. Hydrogen goes up when in a balloon.
    When released as a gas, it mixes instantly with air spreading outward,


    with

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    some upward. This is very fast as the molecule is the smallest of the
    gasses. They fully tested Hydrogen as a fuel in the early 80's, and


    found

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that it was simply too dangerous for the general public to handle. Good


    for

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    fuel cells on the space shuttle.

    Apparently some people disagree with you. See

    <http://www.hydrogenus.com/newsletter/ad32btob.htm>
    <http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/codes/>
    <http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/hysafety/hysafety.htm>
    <http://energy.inel.gov/fossil/hydrogen/pdf/h2safetyreport.pdf>

    Note that most of the above are links to government sites. BTW, one
    of these URLs claims that hydrogen is less dangerous to handle than
    propane.

    You should read the links you posted,especially the last link, Table 1-1
    Preliminary hazards list for hydrogen, is 4 pages long. Good luck, it is a
    long way off.

  7. tellex said:

    "Bill Z." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "tellex" <[email hidden]> writes:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Apparently some people disagree with you. See

    <http://www.hydrogenus.com/newsletter/ad32btob.htm>
    <http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/codes/>
    <http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/hysafety/hysafety.htm>
    <http://energy.inel.gov/fossil/hydrogen/pdf/h2safetyreport.pdf>

    Note that most of the above are links to government sites. BTW, one
    of these URLs claims that hydrogen is less dangerous to handle than
    propane.

    You should read the links you posted,especially the last link, Table 1-1
    Preliminary hazards list for hydrogen, is 4 pages long. Good luck, it is a
    long way off.

    Try page 69, which says, "With proper precautions, hydrogen can
    be handled safely. No safety issues are forsee that would
    warrant cessation of hydrogen use as a vehicle fuel." Maybe you
    should read the damn thing before making a fool of yourself by
    speculating on other individuals' reading habits.

    --
    My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

  8. Bill Z. said:
    tellex said:

    "Bill Z." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "tellex" <[email hidden]> writes:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Apparently some people disagree with you. See

    <http://www.hydrogenus.com/newsletter/ad32btob.htm>
    <http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/codes/>
    <http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/hysafety/hysafety.htm>
    <http://energy.inel.gov/fossil/hydrogen/pdf/h2safetyreport.pdf>

    Note that most of the above are links to government sites. BTW, one
    of these URLs claims that hydrogen is less dangerous to handle than
    propane.


    You should read the links you posted,especially the last link, Table 1-1
    Preliminary hazards list for hydrogen, is 4 pages long. Good luck, it is a
    long way off.

    Try page 69, which says, "With proper precautions, hydrogen can
    be handled safely. No safety issues are forsee that would
    warrant cessation of hydrogen use as a vehicle fuel." Maybe you
    should read the damn thing before making a fool of yourself by
    speculating on other individuals' reading habits.

    No kidding, NASA has been using this as a vehicular fuel for decades and
    they've had only a few accidents.

    I'm sure this can be made foolproof to the degree that even teens
    couldn't screw it up, if they put their best effort into it.

    Jack Dingler

  9. "Jack Dingler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news😄M3bd.249418$3l3.23020@attbi_s03...

    Quoted message said:

    No kidding, NASA has been using this as a vehicular fuel for decades and
    they've had only a few accidents.

    And I have seen three of them WOW! We clear the launch zones via helicopter
    and hold a couple of miles off the pads.

    Actually, the solid fuels are far more impressive - imagine minivan - sized
    chunks falling 1500 feet or so, and exploding upon impact. Liquid hydrogen
    sucks up lots of energy when it evaporates. Its great for cooling nozzles,
    but really dampens the show.

    The real bummer is when they don't blow up until they are way up and have
    dropped their boosters. Two billion bucks gone and no light show -
    doublefuck!

    Robert Haston

  10. Diesel is the fuel of the future. It can be made from vegetable oils (biodiesel) or from the newly developed "bio-digester" which can turn almost anything into oil, oil suitable as diesel fuel after treating.

    You get far more energy out than you put in with diesel. Not so with hydrogen, alcohol or methane.

  11. Weisse Luft said:

    Diesel is the fuel of the future. It can be made from vegetable oils
    (biodiesel) or from the newly developed "bio-digester" which can turn
    almost anything into oil, oil suitable as diesel fuel after treating.

    You get far more energy out than you put in with diesel. Not so with
    hydrogen, alcohol or methane.

    I have high hopes for biodiesel too. I hope that it can at least keep
    mechanized farming intact to some degree.

    But even that level of usage will require a reduction in population as
    an excess biodiesel will mean cutting the food supply.

    We've spent 40 years in the US, paving our best farmland and building
    suburbs on it. And we've used salt fertilizers to destroy the topsoil.
    This situation is going to take a century or so to reverse. But at least
    times will be exciting.

    Jack Dingler

  12. Weisse Luft <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:


    Diesel is the fuel of the future. It can be made from vegetable oils
    (biodiesel) or from the newly developed "bio-digester" which can turn
    almost anything into oil, oil suitable as diesel fuel after treating.

    You get far more energy out than you put in with diesel. Not so with
    hydrogen, alcohol or methane.

    I agree. I think my next vehicle is going to have a turbo diesel. They
    get tremendous mileage and with a turbo, have plenty of power. A lot of
    people have set up biodiesel stills and get their fuel for free (waste
    cooking oil from restaurants). All the auto companies have to do is focus
    on getting auto diesels cleaner burning and quieter (I sure do hate those
    Dodge trucks with the noisy, clattering engines) and maybe more reliable
    (remember that old Oldsmobile engine that was basically a converted
    gasoline engine? - they didn't last too long).

    --
    Mike DeMicco <[email hidden]>

  13. Mike DeMicco said:

    I agree. I think my next vehicle is going to have a turbo diesel. They
    get tremendous mileage and with a turbo, have plenty of power. A lot of
    people have set up biodiesel stills and get their fuel for free (waste
    cooking oil from restaurants).

    If by "free", you mean $0.50-0.80 per gallon depending on the price of
    methanol and the cost of your heat source, I agree with you. The materials
    needed to make the methoxide catalyst aren't as cheap as used cooking oil.

    For a look at biodiesel from the viewpoint of the activist homebrewers:
    http://www.journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

    There's no inherent durability problem with diesels, my 1979 Mercedes has
    about 300,000mi on it and the engine's in much better shape than the rest
    of the car. GM did indeed market some defective diesels when gas prices
    were pushing above $1US per gallon for the first time.

    Mitch.

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