Red Lights

In article said:

What does most of you guys and gals think about running red lights? I do go through some and but
not others deemed more dangerous. But I do have a problem with it generally. I have ridden with
some bone heads that take risks, I will not ride with them. I think of myself as an ambassador (of
a sort) for cyclists, because what do drivers think when they see cyclists just blowing through
lights and stop signs?

It is unlawful, dangerous and bad PR as you have suggested. The only exceptions I make are when I
come to a trip light that won't recognize me and has no pedestrian walk button or when I'm going to
work at 0530 in the AM and there is NO other traffic in sight. And then I'm very careful about it.

Tom Gibb <[email hidden]

Eric Shanabrook said:

What does most of you guys and gals think about running red lights? I do go through some and but
not others deemed more dangerous. But I do have a problem with it generally. I have ridden with
some bone heads that take risks, I will not ride with them. I think of myself as an ambassador (of
a sort) for cyclists, because what do drivers think when they see cyclists just blowing through
lights and stop signs?

Stop signs, okay. Red lights, no. I always slow down for stop signs. At lights, I always come to a
stop unless I'm turning right (American).

At (4-way) stop signs, the cross traffic will at least kind-of stop, while green-light x-traffic is
going basically full speed. Too much of a risk. And then there's the PR factor.

If you blow through red lights regularly, I kind of hope you get ticketed.

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗ "Let me tell you what else I'm worried about. I'm
worried about an opponent who uses nation building and the military in the same sentence. See, our
view of the military is for the military to be properly prepared to fight and win war and therefore,
prevent war from happening in the first place." George Bush, Nov. 6, 2000

Same here, usually stop, but there are those lights that won't change for a bike, and usually
there's not a car around to trip it at 5:30 or 6 am in the morning. I treat those like stop
signs, or a "broken" light as essentially that's what it is. Leaning the bike over and exposing
the side of the wheel to the sensor sometimes helps, but you can only get so much lean with 1
foot clipped in. 🙁

TBGibb said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Eric Shanabrook"

Quoted message said:

What does most of you guys and gals think about running red lights? I do go through some and but
not others deemed more dangerous. But I do have a problem with it generally. I have ridden with
some bone heads that take risks, I will not ride with them. I think of myself as an ambassador (of
a sort) for cyclists, because what do drivers think when they see cyclists just blowing through
lights and stop signs?

It is unlawful, dangerous and bad PR as you have suggested. The only exceptions I make are when
I come to a trip light that won't recognize me and has no pedestrian walk button or when I'm
going to work at 0530 in the AM and there is NO other traffic in sight. And then I'm very
careful about it.

Tom Gibb <[email hidden]>

--
Mark Wolfe wolfenet.orgwolfenet.orgOpen ↗ gpg fingerprint = 42B6 EFEB 5414 AA18 01B7 64AC EF46 F7E6 82F6
8C71 Also note that i knew _far_ more about the people that call address mungers names like
'lusers', 'egoists' or try to make luser giraffes. -- Megahal (trained on asr), 1998-11-06

eric-<< What does most of you guys and gals think about running red lights?

Would you run a red light in a car? Why is a bicycle on a roadway any different??

<< But I do have a problem with it generally. I have ridden with some bone heads that take risks, I
will not ride with them.

When you say you run some, you are the bonehead that is taking risks.

Why intentionally [censored] some car driver off? They are peeved enough about bicycles on their
precious roadways.

<< I think of myself as an ambassador (of a sort) for cyclists, because what do drivers think when
they see cyclists just blowing through lights and stop signs?

Then you are a poor one if you run any red light.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

In article said:

At (4-way) stop signs, the cross traffic will at least kind-of stop, while green-light x-traffic is
going basically full speed.

Yes, they do "kind of stop" at a 4-way, but it's been my experience that "they" will often ignore
the bicyclist that can, at worst, only scratch their paint or (shudder) bleed on their windshield.

I am begining to really dislike 4-ways.

Tom Gibb <[email hidden]

I agree that running red lights is both bad PR and dangerous. I have a question for the group on how
you handle left hand turn lanes on a red light. I used to think that it was safer when there is a
que in the left hand lane to coast up to a position next to the front right fender of the lead car
and then wait for the light to turn green. On a few occasions, I received honks and glares from the
drivers behind the lead car as if I were cutting in line. Now I just que up in line in the middle of
the lane as if I were a car and all seems right with the world again. Do you do the same?

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

eric-<< What does most of you guys and gals think about running red

lights?

Quoted message said:

Would you run a red light in a car? Why is a bicycle on a roadway any different??

<< But I do have a problem with it generally. I have ridden with some bone heads that take risks,
I will not ride with them.

When you say you run some, you are the bonehead that is taking risks.

Why intentionally [censored] some car driver off? They are peeved enough about bicycles on their
precious roadways.

<< I think of myself as an ambassador (of a sort) for cyclists, because

what do

Quoted message said:

drivers think when they see cyclists just blowing through lights and stop signs?

Then you are a poor one if you run any red light.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

TBGibb said:

Yes, they do "kind of stop" at a 4-way, but it's been my experience that

"they"

Quoted message said:

will often ignore the bicyclist that can, at worst, only scratch their

paint or

Quoted message said:

(shudder) bleed on their windshield.

I am begining to really dislike 4-ways.

I agree. You also have to watch for other cyclists (who may not be as visible or audible as a car)
blasting through the 4-way.

Art Harris

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Would you run a red light in a car? Why is a bicycle on a roadway any different??

I strongly agree, although I seem to be in the minority in my area. It blows my mind to see
"serious" cyclists on club rides routinely blowing through red lights. Terrible PR for cycling.

Art Harris

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I agree that running red lights is both bad PR and dangerous. I have a question for the group on
how you handle left hand turn lanes on a red light. I used to think that it was safer when there
is a que in the left hand lane to coast up to a position next to the front right fender of the
lead car and then wait for the light to turn green. On a few occasions, I received honks and
glares from the drivers behind the lead car as if I were cutting in line. Now I just que up in
line in the middle of the lane as if I were a car and all seems right with the world again. Do you
do the same?

At lower speeds, I take up my spot in the centre of the lane, in the traffic, as though I was
driving. When the traffic speed picks up so that I begin to slow the flow, I move over to the
shoulder if the shoulder is wide enough for cars to pass me safely. If not, I move to a different
route so I can avoid holding up traffic . . . unless there is no alternate route, in which case I
take up my spot in the centre of the lane.

Rick

--------------070007020801070306080004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JimP:

I queue up behind the car that was last in line when I arrived. Why? Because I will be no slower
through the light than anyone else and therefore I fit with the traffic flow. If you pull up next to
him you run a couple risks. 1) He will decide at the last second he really wants to go straight and
now you are in his way; 2) He will cut you off if you go through the corner together; 3) The guy
behind him will be POed because you are now in his way and he was there first and rightfully has the
right of way before you. I'm sure there are other possible outcomes but these are what currently are
on the mind.

If you "ride like you drive" while on your bike I believe you will receive more respect on the road
from other drivers.

MOO, Matt

JimP said:

I agree that running red lights is both bad PR and dangerous. I have a question for the group on
how you handle left hand turn lanes on a red light. I used to think that it was safer when there is
a que in the left hand lane to coast up to a position next to the front right fender of the lead
car and then wait for the light to turn green. On a few occasions, I received honks and glares from
the drivers behind the lead car as if I were cutting in line. Now I just que up in line in the
middle of the lane as if I were a car and all seems right with the world again. Do you do the same?

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

eric-<< What does most of you guys and gals think about running red

lights?

Quoted message said:

Would you run a red light in a car? Why is a bicycle on a roadway any different??

<< But I do have a problem with it generally. I have ridden with some bone heads that take risks,
I will not ride with them.

When you say you run some, you are the bonehead that is taking risks.

Why intentionally [censored] some car driver off? They are peeved enough about bicycles on their
precious roadways.

<< I think of myself as an ambassador (of a sort) for cyclists, because

what do

Quoted message said:

drivers think when they see cyclists just blowing through lights and stop signs?

Then you are a poor one if you run any red light.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

--------------070007020801070306080004 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta
http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"> <title></title> </head> <body>
JimP:<br> <br> I queue up behind the car that was last in line when I arrived. Why?
Because I will be no slower through the light than anyone else and therefore I fit with the
traffic flow. If you pull up next to him you run a couple risks. 1) He will decide at
the last second he really wants to go straight and now you are in his way; 2) He will cut you
off if you go through the corner together; 3) The guy behind him will be POed because
you are now in his way and he was there first and rightfully has the right of way before you.
I'm sure there are other possible outcomes but these are what currently are on the mind.<br>
<br> If you "ride like you drive" while on your bike I believe you will receive more respect on the
road from other drivers. <br> <br> MOO,<br> Matt<br> <br> JimP wrote:<br> <blockquote
type="cite" cite="[email hidden]"> <pre wrap="">I agree that running red lights is
both bad PR and dangerous. I have a question for the group on how you handle left hand turn lanes on
a red light. I used to think that it was safer when there is a que in the left hand lane to coast up
to a position next to the front right fender of the lead car and then wait for the light to turn
green. On a few occasions, I received honks and glares from the drivers behind the lead car as if I
were cutting in line. Now I just que up in line in the middle of the lane as if I were a car and all
seems right with the world again. Do you do the same?

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href=""][email hidden]"><[email hidden]></a> wrote in message <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href=""]news:[email hidden]">news:2003051-
[email hidden]</a>... </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre
wrap="">eric-<< What does most of you guys and gals think about running red </pre>
</blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->lights? </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Would you run
a red light in a car? Why is a bicycle on a roadway any different??

<< But I do have a problem with it generally. I have ridden with some bone heads that take
risks, I will not ride with them.

When you say you run some, you are the bonehead that is taking risks.

Why intentionally [censored] some car driver off? They are peeved enough about bicycles on their
precious roadways.

<< I think of myself as an ambassador (of a sort) for cyclists, because </pre> </blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->what do </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">drivers think when they see
cyclists just blowing through lights and stop signs?

Then you are a poor one if you run any red light.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗">vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗</a> "Ruote convenzionali costruite
eccezionalmente bene" </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->

</pre> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html>

--------------070007020801070306080004--

JimP said:

Now I just que up in line in the middle of the lane as if I were a car and all seems right with
the world again. Do you do the same?

Yep. In a left turn lane I just take my place in line behind other vehicles, typically in the middle
of the lane.

RFM
--
To reply, translate domain from l33+ 2p33|< to alpha. 4=a 0=o 3=e +=t

TBGibb said:

In article said:

At (4-way) stop signs, the cross traffic will at least kind-of stop, while green-light x-traffic
is going basically full speed.

I am begining to really dislike 4-ways.

Here we do not have them. Instead we tend to have mini-roundabouts, which are another bad solution
to the problem.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

"JimP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I agree that running red lights is both bad PR and dangerous. I have a question for the group on
how you handle left hand turn lanes on a red light. I used to think that it was safer when there
is a que in the

left

Quoted message said:

hand lane to coast up to a position next to the front right fender of

the

Quoted message said:

lead car and then wait for the light to turn green. On a few

occasions, I

Quoted message said:

received honks and glares from the drivers behind the lead car as if I

were

Quoted message said:

cutting in line. Now I just que up in line in the middle of the lane

as if I

Quoted message said:

were a car and all seems right with the world again. Do you do the

same?

I take a busy left turn home everyday through a typical four-way intersection that I approach in one
of three ways. If I approach the intersection on a green light, that means that I have missed the
left-turn signal, so I continue half-way through the intersection, stop and line up with the cross
traffic (there is a bike lane, so I get in
it). I will then get to go on the next light. If I approach the intersection on a red light, that
means then next light will be the left turn, so I either get behind the last car in line if the
line is not too long, or I go along the right side all the way to the front of the turn lane. I
am not going to wait two or more cycles to get through the goddamn light. Sorry. BTW, just
getting across two lanes of traffic to the turn lane is often dicey.

It is technically illegal under the UVC to pass on the right, so getting to the front is illegal in
most states -- but it is not unreasonable from a safety standpoint because I am faster off the line
than cars and usually get through the intersection before the lead-car driver wakes up, puts down
his cell-phone and starts moving. The traffic on the other side of this particular turn lane also
stacks up, and if I stay out of the line of traffic, that is one more car that can make it through
the intersection. People will honk no matter what you do, and probably will honk more if you get
squarely infront of them in the lane, even if you are going the speed of creeping traffic. Most cops
tell me to stay out of traffic, even if it means passing on the right -- and the enforcement policy
in this city is to NOT cite for passing on the right. -- Jay Beattie.

(TBGibb) said:

It is unlawful, dangerous and bad PR as you have suggested. The only exceptions I make are when I
come to a trip light that won't recognize me ...

I'm surprised that the CPSC hasn't outlawed carbon bikes. My trek 2300 carbon / aluminum bike is
almost never recognized by the trip sensors in the roads. its imho too dangerous to leave the road
just to hit a pedestrian crosswalk button. Luckily, when this problem occurs there are generally no
cars nearby and so its safer to run the light than it normally would be.

- Don

"Eric Shanabrook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

What does most of you guys and gals think about running red lights? I do go through some and but
not others deemed more dangerous. But I do have a problem with it generally. I have ridden with
some bone heads that take risks, I will not ride with them. I think of myself as an ambassador (of
a sort) for cyclists, because what do drivers think when they see cyclists just blowing through
lights and stop signs?

I am a 30+ish year old "renegade" bicycle messenger in Houston. Perhaps the fastest since I am one
of the few that don't wait at lights. There is one bike police officer in particular that may
eventually catch me and give me a ticket (not in the last year anyway). If he is reading, I would
like to tell him that I can only sustain hard efforts for around 10-15 blocks as my heart has
arrhythmia (I wouldn't want him to give up). Granted he may be doing more important things, and I
respect him for that.

Most of the downtown grid in Houston is one-way streets. The best method for going thru a light
without losing all your speed is to turn in the direction of traffic at the crosswalk so you get a
full view of the oncoming traffic. If the road is clear or you see a good gap, bank the bicycle 90
degrees to the other side quick and cross the street. Needless to say, you'll also be looking at
road surfaces while you do this. If it is raining, your traction is screwed so you'll have to move
like a granny (no offense to the grannies out there that could kick my ass in a road race... my
heart goes out to you in admiration 🙂

I like the thrill. If I die, I will have died doing something I love, and that is good enough for
me. Worst thing that could happen is that I live handicapped, a burden to society and unable to do
my job. Hmmm... in that case, I guess I'll have to work on my computer skills.

--------------040606090204070809030604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dave:

I call these "Traffic Pimples"!

MOO, Matt

David Damerell said:

TBGibb said:

In article said:

At (4-way) stop signs, the cross traffic will at least kind-of stop, while green-light x-traffic
is going basically full speed.

I am begining to really dislike 4-ways.

Here we do not have them. Instead we tend to have mini-roundabouts, which are another bad solution
to the problem.

--------------040606090204070809030604 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta
http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"> <title></title> </head> <body>
Dave:<br> <br> I call these "Traffic Pimples"!<br> <br> MOO,<br> Matt<br> <br> David Damerell
wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite" cite="[email hidden]"> <pre
wrap="">TBGibb <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href=""][email hidden]"><[email hidden]></a> wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre
wrap="">In article <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href=""][email hidden]"><[email hidden]></a>, Raptor <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=""][email hidden]"><[email hidden]></a> writes: </pre>
<blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">At (4-way) stop signs, the cross traffic will at least kind-of
stop, while green-light x-traffic is going basically full speed. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">I
am begining to really dislike 4-ways. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> Here we do not have
them. Instead we tend to have mini-roundabouts, which are another bad solution to the problem.
</pre> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html>

--------------040606090204070809030604--

David Damerell said:

TBGibb said:

In article said:

At (4-way) stop signs, the cross traffic will at least kind-of stop, while green-light x-traffic
is going basically full speed.

I am begining to really dislike 4-ways.

Here we do not have them. Instead we tend to have mini-roundabouts, which are another bad solution
to the problem.

I personally much prefer a roundabout to a 4 way stop sign, especially on a bike or motorcycle.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

eric-<< What does most of you guys and gals think about running red

lights?

Quoted message said:

Would you run a red light in a car? Why is a bicycle on a roadway any different??

<< But I do have a problem with it generally. I have ridden with some bone heads that take risks,
I will not ride with them.

When you say you run some, you are the bonehead that is taking risks.

Why intentionally [censored] some car driver off? They are peeved enough about bicycles on their
precious roadways.

<< I think of myself as an ambassador (of a sort) for cyclists, because

what do

Quoted message said:

drivers think when they see cyclists just blowing through lights and stop signs?

Then you are a poor one if you run any red light.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Peter your are absolutely right!

It is just that I have seen so much red light running, that I wanted to bounce it off the bicycling
community here. And yes...I have transgressed, forgive me.

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... [cut]

Quoted message said:

I take a busy left turn home everyday through a typical four-way intersection that I approach in
one of three ways. If I approach the intersection on a green light, that means that I have missed
the left-turn signal, so I continue half-way through the intersection, stop and line up with the
cross traffic (there is a bike lane, so I get in
it). I will then get to go on the next light. If I approach the intersection on a red light, that
means then next light will be the left turn, so I either get behind the last car in line if the
line is not too long, or I go along the right side all the way to the front of the turn lane. I
am not going to wait two or more cycles to get through the goddamn light. Sorry. BTW, just
getting across two lanes of traffic to the turn lane is often dicey.

It is technically illegal under the UVC to pass on the right, so getting to the front is illegal
in most states -- but it is not unreasonable from a safety standpoint because I am faster off the
line than cars and usually get through the intersection before the lead-car driver wakes up, puts
down his cell-phone and starts moving. The traffic on the other side of this particular turn lane
also stacks up, and if I stay out of the line of traffic, that is one more car that can make it
through the intersection. People will honk no matter what you do, and probably will honk more if
you get squarely infront of them in the lane, even if you are going the speed of creeping traffic.
Most cops tell me to stay out of traffic, even if it means passing on the right -- and the
enforcement policy in this city is to NOT cite for passing on the right. -- Jay Beattie.

I just assume I am invisible in traffic and ignore honking (unless I sense a driver ready to hit me
on purpose... I imagine that happens a lot in NYC). To the contrary of what I just said, I do make
myself as visible in traffic as I can. In downtown streets where (most) traffic doesn't go over
35-45mph on the one-way streets (gee... I don't even remember what the speed limit is hahahaha), I
ride in one of the center lanes. I find the center lanes to be safer than the outer lanes. I also
don't assume I am invisible when I look at a driver and find they are looking at me... then, for
example, I'll change into the lane in front of them for an upcoming turn, or for a vehicle that
provides a good draft.