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The truth about the LibDems aka FibDems

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UK and Europe
Published
2 October 2004
Last activity
6 October 2004
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Exposing FibDems
Posts
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  1. FibDems say they have abolished tuition fees in Scotland yet the
    reality is that Scottish students will just pay them after they
    graduate. The FibDems still continue to get driven around in
    ministerial Mondeos.

    They say the council tax is unfair, should be scrapped and then
    replaced with a system based on ability to pay. Yet when such a motion
    presented itself in the Scottish Parliament they voted against it. It
    was a FibDem Minister who tabled the counter motion.

    They had a manifesto commitment in Scotland to support schemes to
    rehabilitate young criminals like the Airborne initiative in
    Lanarkshire. Yet they voted to close Airborne along with Labour MSPs.

    In elections they stand on a policy to stop the use of GM crops. Yet
    in the Scottish Parliament they voted to allow GM crops. A FibDem
    Minister was the one who gave the go-ahead. He still continues to get
    driven around in ministerial Mondeo.

    They have a policy to reduce the number of new roads because they
    believe new road building is often unnecessary, and encourages people
    to use roads. Yet FibDem Councillors and MPs have supported numerous
    new road projects.

    FibDem MP Don Foster wrote to the Transport Minister insisting that he
    should encourage more congestion charges in cities throughout the UK.
    Yet in his constituency he is opposed to road charging.

    In Edinburgh the late Tory councillor Brian Meek exposed their
    duplicity about a proposal to close off an Edinburgh road because
    drivers used it as a shortcut. Local residents were divided about the
    proposal. The FibDems leafleted half the street supporting the
    proposal and the other half opposing it.

    In Cheadle the FibDem MP told the local paper that she fully supported
    Foundation Hospital status for Stepping Hill Hospital. Yet days before
    that she voted at Westminster against the idea of Foundation
    Hospitals.

    FibDems say they will continue to press the Government for a
    moratorium on any new or additional incinerator capacity. Yet in
    Sheffield their Councillors voted to build an incinerator to burn
    two-thirds of the city's rubbish.

    FibDems have a policy in favour of a ban on fox hunting. It is passed
    by their federal conference which is the sovereign body of the
    FibDems. So how come a number of their MPs vote against a ban?

    Why vote for the FibDems when they don't even support what they stand
    for and what people think they are voting for?

    _____________________________________________________
    _____________________________________________________

    ‘People want honesty… It should be about being straight with people,
    telling it as it is, being honest and direct, appealing to hopes and
    aspirations rather than playing upon fears and divisions' (Charles
    Kennedy, Speech to LGA Conference, 4 July 2002).

    ‘Sometimes in politics you've got to lie' (Charles Kennedy, The
    Mirror, 2 May 2002).
    _____________________________________________________

    The Liberal Democrats' own internal campaigning documents, exposed
    before the 2002 local elections and still being sold at their
    September 2003 Party Conference, urge Liberal Democrats:

    ‘Be wicked, act shamelessly, stir endlessly' (p.21)

    ‘Don't be afraid to exaggerate. For example, responses to surveys or
    petitions are always "massive". If a council is doing something badly,
    public expressions are always of "outrage".' (p.23)

    ‘Positive campaigning will NOT be enough to win control of the
    council' (p.4)

    ‘you can secure support from voters who normally vote Tory by being
    effectively anti-Labour and similarly in a Tory area secure Labour
    votes by being anti-Tory' (p.6)

    ‘You don't have to answer the question "What's in it for me if I vote
    for you?" or worse, "What will you do?" Those questions should only be
    answered by ruling groups' (p.21)

    ‘Oppose all service cuts… No cut is going to be popular and why court
    the unpopularity that goes with the responsibility of power' (p.25)

    ‘You are NOT running the council. It's NOT your problem' (p.33)

    (Source: Association of Liberal Democrat Councillors, Effective
    Opposition).
    _____________________________________________________

    An independent academic study of the 2001 general election has
    highlighted how the Liberal Democrats campaign negatively, despite
    claiming to act honestly.

    ‘What was also significant about the Liberal Democrat campaign was the
    amount of negative campaigning. The party sought to portray itself as
    one which campaigned honestly and did not use such tactics lightly.
    Nevertheless… negative tactics formed a considerable part of the
    party's campaign.

    Nearly 38 per cent of the party's press releases were negative… Only
    around 50 per cent of the party's campaign was based on politics and
    issues' (A.Geddes & J.Tonge (eds), Labour's Second Landslide – The
    British General Election 2001, University of Manchester Press,
    p.74-75).

  2. Exposing FibDems said:

    The FibDems still continue to get driven around in
    ministerial Mondeos.

    Are we supposed to feel sorry for them? ;-)

  3. In news:415fa822.0@entanet,

    Zog The Undeniable said:
    Exposing FibDems said:

    The FibDems still continue to get driven around in
    ministerial Mondeos.

    Are we supposed to feel sorry for them? ;-)

    Get them on bikes.
    (my local labour MP joins our club run about once a year. Nice bloke, shame
    about the party.)
    --

    Martin Bulmer

  4. Martin Bulmer said:

    (my local labour MP joins our club run about once a year. Nice bloke, shame
    about the party.)

    I take it he's not Eric "Larda*se" Martlew then?

  5. Politicians eh!

    Out of interest who would YOU vote for?

    The right-wing 'Labour' party (a.k.a. 'The Tony party'😉 perhaps? This
    bunch have betrayed every value the Labour party was established to
    defend and amongst other crimes have totally abandoned their supposed
    commitment to creating an integrated transport system in the UK. Their
    basic transport policy seems to be to compete with the Tory party in a
    futile attempt to satisfy to the insatiable demands of 'the motor
    voter'. For example, they have: painted speed cameras bright yellow so
    drivers know exactly where they can get away with speeding (with a
    predictable effect on the number of road killings); are now seeking to
    reduce the already derisory penalties for most speeding offences even
    further; have removed traffic policing from the list of 'core' police
    responsibilities; have refused to adopt a lower 'European' drink drive
    limit or to give the police the power to randomly test drivers for
    drink or drugs; have failed to support eminently sensible proposals to
    harmonise EU insurance law which would see a 'no fault' compensation
    scheme being set up for pedestrians and cyclists injured in crashes
    involving a motor vehicle and have even failed to remove 'bull bars'
    from our roads.

    The ‘Tony party's' basic strategy seems to be to pander to the
    selfishness of 'middle England', for example by turning a blind eye to
    the crimes of the habitual speeder and mobile phone user in his
    company BMW, whilst at the same time further ingratiating themselves
    with the 'bourgeoisie' by 'clamping down' on those petty offences that
    annoy their middle England supporters, such as begging and people
    riding on the pavement out of fear of all those 'get out of my way,
    I'm a motorist' drivers speeding down our streets.

    On top of this they have brought in policies that have seen the gap
    between the rich and poor growing even more then it did during the
    dark days of Thatcherism, have entered an illegal war for oil as
    lapdogs of the Americans, despite huge opposition, and generally have
    taken the country even further along the road of 'dog eat dog', 'Fu*ck
    you I do what I want selfishness' that is so dear to the heart of the
    British psyche.

    The Tony party have also opposed EU legislation designed to improve
    the working conditions of ordinary people in their stated desire to
    please their corporate backers and make Britain the sweatshop of
    western Europe. (Legislation which even received the support of
    European industrialist and is seen by most countries as an important
    part of helping to build a more equitable and inclusive society). Look
    at the places like France -35 hour maximum working week, 41 paid
    holidays per year, retirement at 60 on half ones final salary (within
    limits), health and education services that put ours to shame, then
    ask why, given that the UK has the 4th highest GNP of any country in
    the world, is that that the the UK does not have a similar standard of
    living, why there is more poverty in the UK than in any other country
    in western Europe, why the gap between the rich and the poor in the UK
    is one of the largest in the world and just who in the UK gains from
    maintaining this status quo. (What was it that Thatcher said about the
    EU bringing in socialism into Britain ‘by the back door'?)...

    How about the far-right Tory party? Jesus! This lot are even worse
    than the Tony Party but at least are (fairly) honest about their
    intentions to screw the poor and give 'the Great British motorist'
    (Copyright the AA) the 'freedom' to drive however and wherever they
    please, regardless of the impact this might have on others. In their
    hierarchical/authoritarian dreams the rights of the less powerful and
    minorities mean nothing.

    This lot also have a rather worrying stench of 'libertarianism' about
    them.* Witness Michael Howard's claim that speed cameras, which after
    all only catch those flouting the law of the land, save lives and help
    to teach motorist the important lesson that they cannot driver however
    they please on the public road, were an example of 'Big Government'
    interfering with peoples lives. This from ‘The party of law and order'
    and zero-tolerance policing!

    * Of course, ‘libertarianism' actually means dismantling all those
    laws that are intended to protect the weak and powerless, so that
    society is governed only by the laws of ‘the market', making the power
    of the already powerful absolute. It is no mistake that the only laws
    that the ‘libertarians' of the far right wish to preserve are those
    relating to the preservation of the ‘rights' of property and
    capital...

    How about the UKIP, so far to the right that if they ever came to
    power it would simply prove George Orwell's prediction that if
    socialism did not come about in the UK Britain would inevitably
    descend into a slimy Anglicised form of fascism, only with cultured
    policemen instead of Nazi gorillas with rubber truncheons?

    Come on if you are so ‘upset' by ‘negative' campaigning, stop doing
    the same and try to put a positive case for which ever of the UK's
    unsavoury selection of right-wing and even further to the right
    parties suits your tastes.

    Given the policies and strategies you quote the Lib Dems seem to be
    offering nothing more or less than ‘a little more of the same'...

  6. Zog The Undeniable said:
    Quoted message said:

    The FibDems still continue to get driven around in
    ministerial Mondeos.

    Quoted message said:

    Are we supposed to feel sorry for them? ;-)

    Not this week, they are pretty chirpy after Hartlepool. This week
    we're supposed to feel sorry for the Monster Raving Tory Party :-)

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

  7. On 3 Oct 2004 06:31:58 -0700, [email hidden] (Howard)

    Quoted message said:

    Politicians eh!

    Out of interest who would YOU vote for?

    The right-wing 'Labour' party (a.k.a. 'The Tony party'😉 perhaps? This
    bunch have betrayed every value the Labour party was established to
    defend and amongst other crimes have totally abandoned their supposed
    commitment to creating an integrated transport system in the UK. Their
    basic transport policy seems to be to compete with the Tory party in a
    futile attempt to satisfy to the insatiable demands of 'the motor
    voter'.

    Sadly true now but remember the Tories have not always been so one
    sided on transport issues. It was, after all, a Conservative
    government that brought us the National Cycling Strategy and the Fuel
    Duty Escalator and an end to predict and provide road building.

    So it is doubly depressing to see Labour bin all these improvements
    and then have both parties competing to be the most car-friendly.

    snip

    Quoted message said:

    On top of this they have brought in policies that have seen the gap
    between the rich and poor growing even more then it did during the
    dark days of Thatcherism, have entered an illegal war for oil as
    lapdogs of the Americans, despite huge opposition, and generally have
    taken the country even further along the road of 'dog eat dog', 'Fu*ck
    you I do what I want selfishness' that is so dear to the heart of the
    British psyche.

    I'm very glad to say that I have a far higher opinion of my fellow
    countrymen and women than that. If you like the idea of democracy, you
    have to, I suppose.

    snip

    Quoted message said:

    How about the far-right Tory party? Jesus! This lot are even worse
    than the Tony Party but at least are (fairly) honest about their
    intentions to screw the poor and give 'the Great British motorist'
    (Copyright the AA) the 'freedom' to drive however and wherever they
    please, regardless of the impact this might have on others. In their
    hierarchical/authoritarian dreams the rights of the less powerful and
    minorities mean nothing.

    Crumbs.

    Quoted message said:

    This lot also have a rather worrying stench of 'libertarianism' about
    them.* Witness Michael Howard's claim that speed cameras, which after
    all only catch those flouting the law of the land, save lives and help
    to teach motorist the important lesson that they cannot driver however
    they please on the public road, were an example of 'Big Government'
    interfering with peoples lives. This from ‘The party of law and order'
    and zero-tolerance policing!

    Quite. Couldn't agree more.

    Quoted message said:

    * Of course, ‘libertarianism' actually means dismantling all those
    laws that are intended to protect the weak and powerless, so that
    society is governed only by the laws of ‘the market', making the power
    of the already powerful absolute. It is no mistake that the only laws
    that the ‘libertarians' of the far right wish to preserve are those
    relating to the preservation of the ‘rights' of property and
    capital...

    If you base your definition of libertarianism on some of more batty
    techno libertarians on the net, this would probably appear to be true.
    It's not really like that though, is it? Except in the far reaches of
    the internet, libertarian economics is fully cognisant of the need to
    correct for the market's failure to address externalities.

    It's why road charging and environmental levies on motoring *ought* to
    be Tory policies before anyone else's.

    Quoted message said:

    How about the UKIP, so far to the right that if they ever came to
    power it would simply prove George Orwell's prediction that if
    socialism did not come about in the UK Britain would inevitably
    descend into a slimy Anglicised form of fascism, only with cultured
    policemen instead of Nazi gorillas with rubber truncheons?

    We're not far off that even without some mythical fascists, though.
    The idea of a fair and unbiased legal system has pretty much been
    chucked out of the window with bits of legislation such as the
    terrorism act, tinkering with jury trials, unquestioned extradition to
    the US etc.

    So, Howard, answer youre own question; who do you vote for? Are you an
    activist working to see that the party of your choice is able to offer
    an alternative?

  8. Not Responding said:

    So it is doubly depressing to see Labour bin all these improvements
    and then have both parties competing to be the most car-friendly.

    I know I've posted this before, but there are more than 3 million
    additional cars clogging UK roads since 1997. The main factor is
    probably the collapse in secondhand car prices following the "ripoff
    Britain" campaign to reduce new car prices - with the price of a good
    runner at a couple of hundred quid, *anyone* can afford to buy a car
    now, if not to insure it - but it's still a horrifying figure.

  9. In news:415fbd0a.0@entanet,

    Zog The Undeniable said:
    Martin Bulmer said:

    (my local labour MP joins our club run about once a year. Nice
    bloke, shame about the party.)

    I take it he's not Eric "Larda*se" Martlew then?

    David Taylor, North West Leicestershire. He works like a trojan, attends
    anything and everything, and not just for the publicity. When he was a
    councillor, he assisted every worthy cause in the area, without making
    political points, he helped my wife to get money and sheds for our local
    playgroup, and is an all round good egg.
    Shame he's on Tony's side.
    --

    Martin Bulmer

  10. "Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:41603fc2.0@entanet...

    Quoted message said:
    Not Responding said:

    So it is doubly depressing to see Labour bin all these improvements
    and then have both parties competing to be the most car-friendly.

    I know I've posted this before, but there are more than 3 million
    additional cars clogging UK roads since 1997. The main factor is probably
    the collapse in secondhand car prices following the "ripoff Britain"
    campaign to reduce new car prices - with the price of a good runner at a
    couple of hundred quid, *anyone* can afford to buy a car now, if not to
    insure it - but it's still a horrifying figure.

    Dont you mean there are more than 3 million additional licensed cars? Many
    of them wont actually be driven at the same time. I heard someone being
    criticised the other day for having 4 cars, (a single person) as if he
    personally caused 4 times more congestion and emissions as a person with one
    car*. Whereas his cars (small sports cars) probably contribute less than
    many households who have a large 4 wheel drive and use it frequently.

    --
    Tumbleweed
    *obviously there is the resource cost of making the cars, but from a POV of
    'clgging up the roads' there is no extra contribution.

    email replies not necessary but to contact use;
    tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

  11. In message <[email hidden]>, Howard
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    Politicians eh!


    (Lot's of outdated state-socialist drivel snipped.)

    Quoted message said:


    This lot also have a rather worrying stench of 'libertarianism' about
    them.* Witness Michael Howard's claim that speed cameras, which after
    all only catch those flouting the law of the land, save lives and help
    to teach motorist the important lesson that they cannot driver however
    they please on the public road, were an example of 'Big Government'
    interfering with peoples lives. This from ‘The party of law and order'
    and zero-tolerance policing!

    * Of course, ‘libertarianism' actually means dismantling all those
    laws that are intended to protect the weak and powerless, so that
    society is governed only by the laws of ‘the market', making the power
    of the already powerful absolute. It is no mistake that the only laws
    that the ‘libertarians' of the far right wish to preserve are those
    relating to the preservation of the ‘rights' of property and
    capital...

    This '19th century' liberalism, (aka libertarianism) is OK by me. I'm
    neither poor enough, nor paradoxically rich enough to have benefited
    from the labour government. I just want to get the state of my back.

    You always hear about politicians pandering to the uneducated demagogues
    when bringing in more and more laws to adversely affect the individual's
    liberty. When will a party stand up and say that they want to get rid
    of large swathes of repressive laws?
    --
    Chris Morriss

  12. "Chris Morriss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:


    You always hear about politicians pandering to the uneducated demagogues
    when bringing in more and more laws to adversely affect the individual's
    liberty. When will a party stand up and say that they want to get rid of
    large swathes of repressive laws?

    All the time. Then they introduce more.

    --
    Tumbleweed

    email replies not necessary but to contact use;
    tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

  13. [follow-ups set to news:uk.local.derbyshire]
    While the city slept, Chris Morriss ([email hidden]) feverishly
    typed...

    Quoted message said:

    I just want to get the state of my back.

    Well, unless we can see your back, we can't really tell you. Have you
    considered asking a chiropractor? ;-)

    Cheers,
    Nige

    --
    Nigel Moss
    http://www.nigenet.org.uk
    Mail address not valid. [email hidden], take the DOG. out!
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is very, very busy!

  14. Quoted message said:

    the Tories have not always been so one
    sided on transport issues. It was, after all, a Conservative
    government that brought us the National Cycling Strategy and the Fuel
    Duty Escalator and an end to predict and provide road building.

    Really?

    The NCS has proved to be little more than an ineffectual piece of
    paper.

    Who was it who spitefully privatised the national rail system just
    before losing power?

    Who originally planned to bury half of the country under tarmac as
    part of its so-called 'Road for prosperity' program?

    Who stated that their vision was to see Britain become 'the great
    car-owning democracy?' and claimed that 'anyone over the age of 30 who
    is still using public transport can consider themselves to be a
    failure?

  15. " [Not Responding] " <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    On 3 Oct 2004 06:31:58 -0700, [email hidden] (Howard)

    Quoted message said:

    Politicians eh!

    Out of interest who would YOU vote for?

    The right-wing 'Labour' party (a.k.a. 'The Tony party'😉 perhaps? This
    bunch have betrayed every value the Labour party was established to
    defend and amongst other crimes have totally abandoned their supposed
    commitment to creating an integrated transport system in the UK. Their
    basic transport policy seems to be to compete with the Tory party in a
    futile attempt to satisfy to the insatiable demands of 'the motor
    voter'.

    Sadly true now but remember the Tories have not always been so one
    sided on transport issues. It was, after all, a Conservative
    government that brought us the National Cycling Strategy and the Fuel
    Duty Escalator and an end to predict and provide road building.

    So it is doubly depressing to see Labour bin all these improvements
    and then have both parties competing to be the most car-friendly.

    Interesting note for you. A few years ago they announced their own
    budget proposals and tried to appeal all round by calling a "green"
    budget but appealing to car owners by saying they would abolish road
    tax. They said they would replace it with an increase on fuel tax.

    This at the same time as they were conning voters by running local
    petitions against high fuel tax. When it was pointed out to them in
    the Commons they quitely dropped the policy.

    That's the FibDems for you. Trying to fool all the people all the time
    because they think people don't look into these things.

  16. On 4 Oct 2004 18:41:42 -0700, [email hidden] (Exposing
    FibDems) wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    That's the FibDems for you. Trying to fool all the people all the time
    because they think people don't look into these things.

    Whereas the Monster Raving Tory Party do it because they are so
    arrogant they think people will forgive them anyway, and Blue Labour
    do it because experience has told them they will probably get away
    with it.

    This week we have been treated to the MRTP saying they want to remove
    unfair taxes, when they are on record as having introduced a tax so
    unfair it caused rioting on the streets. Michael Howard has been
    repeating his "prison works" mantra although when he was home
    secretary the record prison population didn't seem to reduce crime
    levels in any meaningful way, asking us to trust him when in his most
    famous TV appearance he flatly refused to give a straight answer to a
    straight question, going all-out against immigrants when he is of
    immigrant stock himself, preaching zero tolerance for petty crime but
    zero enforcement for motoring offences, and of course the perennial
    Tory "bribe them with their own money" scam.

    And St Tony is no better, having taken us to war on a pretext among
    other things.

    So, I generally vote for whichever party has the best chance of
    winning in my constituency and has, on their manifesto, reform of the
    electoral system.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

  17. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    So, I generally vote for whichever party has the best chance of
    winning in my constituency and has, on their manifesto, reform of the
    electoral system.

    Yes but they even voted against that in the Scottish Parliamentn so
    they could stay in power.

  18. [email hidden] (Howard) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Politicians eh!

    Out of interest who would YOU vote for?

    The right-wing 'Labour' party (a.k.a. 'The Tony party'😉 perhaps?

    If they upset you so much it must upset you that the LibDems are in
    alliance with that right-wing 'Labour' party in Scotland. So it's vote
    LibDem get right-wing 'Labour' party.

    Quoted message said:

    Given the policies and strategies you quote the Lib Dems seem to be
    offering nothing more or less than ?a little more of the same'...

    Yes. It's called bare faced lying.

  19. Exposing FibDems6/10/04 12:54 AM

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (Howard) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Politicians eh!

    Out of interest who would YOU vote for?

    The right-wing 'Labour' party (a.k.a. 'The Tony party'😉 perhaps?

    If they upset you so much it must upset you that the LibDems are in
    alliance with that right-wing 'Labour' party in Scotland. So it's vote
    LibDem get right-wing 'Labour' party.

    Quoted message said:

    Given the policies and strategies you quote the Lib Dems seem to be
    offering nothing more or less than ?a little more of the same'...

    Yes. It's called bare faced lying.

    Is this what the Tory party have been reduced to now, Spartacus?...

    Scrabbling about cross-posting lying obfuscating [censored] in Usenet with
    half-baked scandal-mongering tactics about other parties. Yet have not a
    single decent policy of their own to offer.

    How 2nd rate, tawdry, down market and f**kin' sad can one possibly get? And
    you think we're all getting apathetic about politics... ? Are they paying
    you well? I hope so.

    CR

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