Rohloff Speedhub experience?

Neil said:

I am sick of screwing around with my derailleur. I just want a bike
that I can ride without always fine tuning the derailleurs. I am
particularly finicky about missed shifts or slow shifting.

I don't have the quads to ride single speed on my trails. I have
heard reviews on the Rohloff hub a few years ago, but nothing since.
No one I know rides one. No shops in town carry them. The last
review I read was a bit luke warm about the shifting performance. I
am not a gram counter and I realize the Rohloffs are a little heavy
compared to XTR stuff, but if they work reliably and have smooth,
consistent shifting, I want some.

Any experience with these hubs?

You will be hearing from one Pete Cresswell.

Bill "Kreskin" S.

RE/

Quoted message said:

I am not a gram counter and
I realize the Rohloffs are a little heavy compared to XTR stuff, but if
they work reliably and have smooth, consistent shifting, I want some.

Here's the review I posted on MtbReview.com a couple years ago:
---------------------------------------------------------------

Pros:

- Wide shifts:
Probably a substitute for proper technique, but I can clean inclines that I
couldn't before. Hammer in to it in, say, gear 8, then jump down to 4, then to 1
as needed.

Also, on long climbs I like to alternate in and out of the saddle which, for me,
is a 3 or 4 gear shift on each change. With the der I used to do it a lot less
frequently that I really like and in the spirit of "Gee, I sure hope I don't
miss this shift and take the saddle horn up my butt (again...)".

Now I just snap those wide shifts without even thinking about it. Any time, any
place.- I'm always in the right gear, since shifting is essentially trivial;
seems like shifts take less than a fiftieth of a second.

- No more rear cog problems: no taco'd cogs, no more vines/small branches/grass
wrapped around the cog/der.

- It *seems* pretty-much bombproof. Time will tell, but I was spending more time
than I cared to adjusting my der and bending a cog wheel while riding was a
PITA.

- Greatly-reduced frequency of missed shifts. "Reduced" and not "Zero" because
there is a 'gotcha' between 7 and 8 dumps you into gear 14 if you forget and
shift under load.

It pops back into the intended gear as soon as the load comes off, but it's
nothing you want to make a habit of doing.

- Ability to shift down when stopped. I think I make more than my share of
unplanned stops and I used to have to lift up the rear wheel and rotate the
cranks to get down to a starting gear.

Also, my technique sucks and probably won't get any better and it's nice to be
able approach an object and slow way, way down before negotiating it without
worrying about getting stuck in too high a gear to get over it.

- I don't have to keep mental track of which chain ring I'm on. Sounds trivial,
but I don't have any brain cells to spare.

- Maybe not so much of a strength, but it should be mentioned somewhere that 14
speeds are enough.

My original 44-32-22 der setup took me from 18.5 to 104.

With the Rohloff on a 44 I get 19.9 to 104.9 in nice even, uniform 13.8%
increments. That's only one less gear and, since I never used 104 it's a wash
for me.

With the 38 that I've since gone over to it's 17.2 - 90.6.
I don't get spun out in 90.6 until about 25 mph - and there's no way I can hold
that speed for very long anyhow.

I left the old 32 in the middle position just because it weighs next to nothing
and, on a big bump sometimes the chain drops (you're supposed to have a
front-der-like dingus up there to keep it from doing that ....but I never go
around to getting one) the 32 catches the chain. Also allows shifting down
to a usually-ludicrous 14.something if things get really bad....

Cons:

- It costs an arm and a leg.

If my wife ever finds out I spent close to a grand on a rear wheel, she'll start
to doubt my sanity.

- This hub weighs a *lot*. It added 1.9 pounds to my already-heavy bike - same
rim/tube/tire/spoke gauge.
Anybody who says it only adds a pound must be using a really, *really* heavy
cog/hub/der/shifter setup. I was using SRAM 9.0 with twist shifters.

- The installation instructions could use a re-write. I'm no rocket scientist,
and after studying them long enough I pulled it off - but it could have been a
*lot* easier.

- It's heavy. Are you ready for an 8-pound rear wheel?

- The torque arm mounting that came with it was decidedly un-German (downright
kludgey, I'd say...). Hose clamps!

Also sometime during the first hundred miles the little clevis pin that held it
all together disappeared. Wasn't a catestrophic failure because the normal
riding pressure pushes everything together.... I probably installed the c-ring
keeper wrong or something - but it seems like a weak point. Replaced it with a
marine shackle set in LocTite.

I have since discovered that there is a more elegant torque arm setup that
Rohloff calls the "SpeedBone". Uses the disk brake mount and does not
interfere with using a disk brake.

- It's heavy.

- It's noisy, especially in gears 1-7. Supposedly this mitigates with age, but
it is still an issue with me at 1,000 miles.

- It's definately less efficient in gears 1-8.

There's a web site somewhere (in German) that supposedly graphs a Rohloff
against one of the Shimanos and claims no loss in most gears and 1-2% in the
lower gears.

I would disagree with that web site's figures.

- Did I mention that it's heavy?

------------------------------------------------

Bottom Line:

This is definately not for everybody and the torque arm thing bugged me until I
got the more elegant replacement.

Having said that, I find that me and the Rohloff are a good match.

I've quickly gotten so used to getting any gear I want any time I want and never
having to stop and pull brush/branches out of my rear der that I can't imagine
going back.

It also appeals to the exhibitionist in me...

You, on the other hand, might hate the thing.

Oh yeah, I amost forgot: it's heavy.
---------------------------------------------------------------

--
PeteCresswell

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't have the quads to ride single speed on my trails. I have
heard reviews on the Rohloff hub a few years ago, but nothing since.

Any experience with these hubs?

Good appraisal of pro & cons of the Speedhub, plus other info (368 KB
pdf file):
http://www.sjscycles.com/pdfFiles/LivingWithARohloffWeb.pdf

769 KB pdf brochure for a specific Speedhub equipped bike that
addresses some of the issues Pete Cresswell mentions elsewhere
(dropout design etc):
http://www.sjscycles.com/pdfFiles/ThornRavenEnduro04Web.pdf

Pete Jones

"(Pete Cresswell)" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

RE/

Quoted message said:

I am not a gram counter and
I realize the Rohloffs are a little heavy compared to XTR stuff, but
if they work reliably and have smooth, consistent shifting, I want
some.

Here's the review I posted on MtbReview.com a couple years ago:
---------------------------------------------------------------

Pros:

- Wide shifts:
Probably a substitute for proper technique, but I can clean inclines
that I couldn't before. Hammer in to it in, say, gear 8, then jump
down to 4, then to 1 as needed.

Also, on long climbs I like to alternate in and out of the saddle
which, for me, is a 3 or 4 gear shift on each change. With the der I
used to do it a lot less frequently that I really like and in the
spirit of "Gee, I sure hope I don't miss this shift and take the
saddle horn up my butt (again...)".

Now I just snap those wide shifts without even thinking about it. Any
time, any place.- I'm always in the right gear, since shifting is
essentially trivial; seems like shifts take less than a fiftieth of a
second.

- No more rear cog problems: no taco'd cogs, no more vines/small
branches/grass wrapped around the cog/der.

- It *seems* pretty-much bombproof. Time will tell, but I was spending
more time than I cared to adjusting my der and bending a cog wheel
while riding was a PITA.

- Greatly-reduced frequency of missed shifts. "Reduced" and not "Zero"
because there is a 'gotcha' between 7 and 8 dumps you into gear 14 if
you forget and shift under load.

It pops back into the intended gear as soon as the load comes off, but
it's nothing you want to make a habit of doing.

- Ability to shift down when stopped. I think I make more than my
share of unplanned stops and I used to have to lift up the rear wheel
and rotate the cranks to get down to a starting gear.

Also, my technique sucks and probably won't get any better and it's
nice to be able approach an object and slow way, way down before
negotiating it without worrying about getting stuck in too high a gear
to get over it.

- I don't have to keep mental track of which chain ring I'm on. Sounds
trivial, but I don't have any brain cells to spare.

- Maybe not so much of a strength, but it should be mentioned
somewhere that 14 speeds are enough.

My original 44-32-22 der setup took me from 18.5 to 104.

With the Rohloff on a 44 I get 19.9 to 104.9 in nice even, uniform
13.8% increments. That's only one less gear and, since I never used
104 it's a wash for me.

With the 38 that I've since gone over to it's 17.2 - 90.6.
I don't get spun out in 90.6 until about 25 mph - and there's no way I
can hold that speed for very long anyhow.

I left the old 32 in the middle position just because it weighs next
to nothing and, on a big bump sometimes the chain drops (you're
supposed to have a front-der-like dingus up there to keep it from
doing that ....but I never go around to getting one) the 32 catches
the chain. Also allows shifting down to a usually-ludicrous
14.something if things get really bad....

Cons:

- It costs an arm and a leg.

If my wife ever finds out I spent close to a grand on a rear wheel,
she'll start to doubt my sanity.

- This hub weighs a *lot*. It added 1.9 pounds to my already-heavy
bike - same rim/tube/tire/spoke gauge.
Anybody who says it only adds a pound must be using a really, *really*
heavy cog/hub/der/shifter setup. I was using SRAM 9.0 with twist
shifters.

- The installation instructions could use a re-write. I'm no rocket
scientist, and after studying them long enough I pulled it off - but
it could have been a *lot* easier.

- It's heavy. Are you ready for an 8-pound rear wheel?

- The torque arm mounting that came with it was decidedly un-German
(downright kludgey, I'd say...). Hose clamps!

Also sometime during the first hundred miles the little clevis pin
that held it all together disappeared. Wasn't a catestrophic failure
because the normal riding pressure pushes everything together.... I
probably installed the c-ring keeper wrong or something - but it seems
like a weak point. Replaced it with a marine shackle set in LocTite.

I have since discovered that there is a more elegant torque arm setup
that Rohloff calls the "SpeedBone". Uses the disk brake mount and
does not interfere with using a disk brake.

- It's heavy.

- It's noisy, especially in gears 1-7. Supposedly this mitigates with
age, but it is still an issue with me at 1,000 miles.

- It's definately less efficient in gears 1-8.

There's a web site somewhere (in German) that supposedly graphs a
Rohloff against one of the Shimanos and claims no loss in most gears
and 1-2% in the lower gears.

I would disagree with that web site's figures.

- Did I mention that it's heavy?

------------------------------------------------

Bottom Line:

This is definately not for everybody and the torque arm thing bugged
me until I got the more elegant replacement.

Having said that, I find that me and the Rohloff are a good match.

I've quickly gotten so used to getting any gear I want any time I want
and never having to stop and pull brush/branches out of my rear der
that I can't imagine going back.

It also appeals to the exhibitionist in me...

You, on the other hand, might hate the thing.

Oh yeah, I amost forgot: it's heavy.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Now it's the gear 7-8 thing that bothers me the most. I really want
quick, efficient shifting. I do have good shifting technique insofar as
I don't try to make nice shifts with a traditional derailleur under load.
I don't mind that, and when my traditional derailleur is tuned and lined
up properly and when it's not too icy or too muddy, I am thrilled with
how it shifts. Unfortunately, that does not happen very often around
here.

With the Rohloff, does the 7-8 phenomenon require much more caution than
a shift with a regular derailleur. At risk of sounding very dim, could I
ask you to explain in a bit more detail exactly what happens when you try
to shift from 7-8?

Thanks in advance.

I wish I could test ride one before I drop so much cash on it.
Unfortunately, I will need to trust word of mouth, I suppose.

Quoted message said:

http://www.sjscycles.com/pdfFiles/ThornRavenEnduro04Web.pdf

I wonder how they arrive at the idea of less net weight for the Rohloff.

Neil <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:qyX6d.570015$gE.513333@pd7tw3no:

Quoted message said:

"(Pete Cresswell)" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

RE/

Quoted message said:

I am not a gram counter and
I realize the Rohloffs are a little heavy compared to XTR stuff, but
if they work reliably and have smooth, consistent shifting, I want
some.

Here's the review I posted on MtbReview.com a couple years ago:
---------------------------------------------------------------

Pros:

- Wide shifts:
Probably a substitute for proper technique, but I can clean inclines
that I couldn't before. Hammer in to it in, say, gear 8, then jump
down to 4, then to 1 as needed.

Also, on long climbs I like to alternate in and out of the saddle
which, for me, is a 3 or 4 gear shift on each change. With the der I
used to do it a lot less frequently that I really like and in the
spirit of "Gee, I sure hope I don't miss this shift and take the
saddle horn up my butt (again...)".

Now I just snap those wide shifts without even thinking about it. Any
time, any place.- I'm always in the right gear, since shifting is
essentially trivial; seems like shifts take less than a fiftieth of a
second.

- No more rear cog problems: no taco'd cogs, no more vines/small
branches/grass wrapped around the cog/der.

- It *seems* pretty-much bombproof. Time will tell, but I was
spending more time than I cared to adjusting my der and bending a cog
wheel while riding was a PITA.

- Greatly-reduced frequency of missed shifts. "Reduced" and not
"Zero" because there is a 'gotcha' between 7 and 8 dumps you into
gear 14 if you forget and shift under load.

It pops back into the intended gear as soon as the load comes off,
but it's nothing you want to make a habit of doing.

- Ability to shift down when stopped. I think I make more than my
share of unplanned stops and I used to have to lift up the rear wheel
and rotate the cranks to get down to a starting gear.

Also, my technique sucks and probably won't get any better and it's
nice to be able approach an object and slow way, way down before
negotiating it without worrying about getting stuck in too high a
gear to get over it.

- I don't have to keep mental track of which chain ring I'm on.
Sounds trivial, but I don't have any brain cells to spare.

- Maybe not so much of a strength, but it should be mentioned
somewhere that 14 speeds are enough.

My original 44-32-22 der setup took me from 18.5 to 104.

With the Rohloff on a 44 I get 19.9 to 104.9 in nice even, uniform
13.8% increments. That's only one less gear and, since I never used
104 it's a wash for me.

With the 38 that I've since gone over to it's 17.2 - 90.6.
I don't get spun out in 90.6 until about 25 mph - and there's no way
I can hold that speed for very long anyhow.

I left the old 32 in the middle position just because it weighs next
to nothing and, on a big bump sometimes the chain drops (you're
supposed to have a front-der-like dingus up there to keep it from
doing that ....but I never go around to getting one) the 32 catches
the chain. Also allows shifting down to a usually-ludicrous
14.something if things get really bad....

Cons:

- It costs an arm and a leg.

If my wife ever finds out I spent close to a grand on a rear wheel,
she'll start to doubt my sanity.

- This hub weighs a *lot*. It added 1.9 pounds to my already-heavy
bike - same rim/tube/tire/spoke gauge.
Anybody who says it only adds a pound must be using a really,
*really* heavy cog/hub/der/shifter setup. I was using SRAM 9.0 with
twist shifters.

- The installation instructions could use a re-write. I'm no rocket
scientist, and after studying them long enough I pulled it off - but
it could have been a *lot* easier.

- It's heavy. Are you ready for an 8-pound rear wheel?

- The torque arm mounting that came with it was decidedly un-German
(downright kludgey, I'd say...). Hose clamps!

Also sometime during the first hundred miles the little clevis pin
that held it all together disappeared. Wasn't a catestrophic failure
because the normal riding pressure pushes everything together.... I
probably installed the c-ring keeper wrong or something - but it
seems like a weak point. Replaced it with a marine shackle set in
LocTite.

I have since discovered that there is a more elegant torque arm setup
that Rohloff calls the "SpeedBone". Uses the disk brake mount and
does not interfere with using a disk brake.

- It's heavy.

- It's noisy, especially in gears 1-7. Supposedly this mitigates with
age, but it is still an issue with me at 1,000 miles.

- It's definately less efficient in gears 1-8.

There's a web site somewhere (in German) that supposedly graphs a
Rohloff against one of the Shimanos and claims no loss in most gears
and 1-2% in the lower gears.

I would disagree with that web site's figures.

- Did I mention that it's heavy?

------------------------------------------------

Bottom Line:

This is definately not for everybody and the torque arm thing bugged
me until I got the more elegant replacement.

Having said that, I find that me and the Rohloff are a good match.

I've quickly gotten so used to getting any gear I want any time I
want and never having to stop and pull brush/branches out of my rear
der that I can't imagine going back.

It also appeals to the exhibitionist in me...

You, on the other hand, might hate the thing.

Oh yeah, I amost forgot: it's heavy.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Now it's the gear 7-8 thing that bothers me the most. I really want
quick, efficient shifting. I do have good shifting technique insofar
as I don't try to make nice shifts with a traditional derailleur under
load. I don't mind that, and when my traditional derailleur is tuned
and lined up properly and when it's not too icy or too muddy, I am
thrilled with how it shifts. Unfortunately, that does not happen very
often around here.

With the Rohloff, does the 7-8 phenomenon require much more caution
than a shift with a regular derailleur. At risk of sounding very dim,
could I ask you to explain in a bit more detail exactly what happens
when you try to shift from 7-8?

Thanks in advance.

I wish I could test ride one before I drop so much cash on it.
Unfortunately, I will need to trust word of mouth, I suppose.

Actually, ignore that last question, I read the pdf file and even I
understand the situation. But I do want to know if 'backing off' on the
pedals mean even more backing off than what is required with a standard
system?

On 30 Sep 2004 11:09:22 -0700, [email hidden]
(PeteCresswell) blathered:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.sjscycles.com/pdfFiles/ThornRavenEnduro04Web.pdf

I wonder how they arrive at the idea of less net weight for the Rohloff.

No torque arm, tensioner and all that ancilliary [censored], due to the
dedicated dropouts? Possibly also refers to the model on the touring
frame, without the external gearbox.

Pete Jones

Sram makes a hub like the Rohloff and also runs a rear
derailleur at the same time So no front derailleur is needed or multi
chain rings. Just one ring up front.

I MTB 2004

Quoted message said:

On 30 Sep 2004 11:09:22 -0700, [email hidden]
(PeteCresswell) blathered:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.sjscycles.com/pdfFiles/ThornRavenEnduro04Web.pdf

I wonder how they arrive at the idea of less net weight for the Rohloff.

No torque arm, tensioner and all that ancilliary [censored], due to the
dedicated dropouts? Possibly also refers to the model on the touring
frame, without the external gearbox.

And no tensioner = a shorter chain!

It all adds up...

Pete Jones

[email hidden] wrote in news:25462-415C634D-237@storefull-
3215.bay.webtv.net:

Quoted message said:

Sram makes a hub like the Rohloff and also runs a rear
derailleur at the same time So no front derailleur is needed or multi
chain rings. Just one ring up front.

I MTB 2004

As far as I can tell, though, the SRAM stuff is not for off road use. Is
that true?

If not, although it doesn't address my main complaint of the rear
derailleur, it would at least help chainline problems a bit by getting rid
of the front der.

Anyone know about SRAM hub?

RE/

Quoted message said:

But I do want to know if 'backing off' on the
pedals mean even more backing off than what is required with a standard
system?

Even with the gear 7-8 shift, I'd say there's less backing off with Rohloff than
with a der. For me, it's a non-issue. There's really no pause, just a
reduction in pressure that lasts maybe a 20th of a second.

Also, tipping the balance towards Rohloff, is the ability to shift up 3, 4, 5
gears with the flick of the wrist. I could always drop down a couple on my der
pretty fast, but could never go up more than one without a significant pause.
--
PeteCresswell

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote in news:25462-415C634D-237@storefull-
3215.bay.webtv.net:

Quoted message said:

Sram makes a hub like the Rohloff and also runs a rear
derailleur at the same time So no front derailleur is needed or multi
chain rings. Just one ring up front.

As far as I can tell, though, the SRAM stuff is not for off road use. Is
that true?

Anyone know about SRAM hub?

I can't comment on SRAM hub durability, but the spread of gears is
much lower than the Rohloff - 313% for their 7 speed hub (compared to
618% for the Speedhub). Choose your chainring carefully...

The 3x7 hub Neil refers to is a non-starter IMO - the worst of all
worlds, it doesn't address derailleur/cassette issues and you end up
with a heavy, internal geared hub into the bargain.

GT are playing with Shimano 8 speed geared hub projects:
http://www.bikemagic.com/news/images/gt_gbox05_big.jpg

However, at the moment, I think the Rohloff is the only realistic
option for anything other than leisure cycling. I've been watching
developments on the geared hub front with interest for some time -
can't understand why Shimano haven't put more effort into developing a
better system, to be honest.

I'm buying a Thorn Tour - the right bike at the right price finally
came along. If I was in the market for a new MTB I'd be very tempted
by the Thorn Enduro, or one of the similar Nicolai designs. I don't
think I'd want to bodge a Rohloff hub onto a frame that hadn't been
designed around it - too much of a dog's breakfast in design terms if
you ask me.

Pete Jones

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyone know about SRAM hub?

GT are playing with Shimano 8 speed geared hub projects:
http://www.bikemagic.com/news/images/gt_gbox05_big.jpg

More variations on a theme -
http://www.singletrackworld.com/mod/submit/images/1446-6.jpg
http://www.singletrackworld.com/mod/submit/images/1446-23.jpg
http://www.singletrackworld.com/mod/submit/images/1446-24.jpg

Pete Jones

On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:43:40 +0000 (UTC), Pete Jones
<[email hidden]> blathered:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyone know about SRAM hub?

GT are playing with Shimano 8 speed geared hub projects:
http://www.bikemagic.com/news/images/gt_gbox05_big.jpg

more info -
http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4698

Pete Jones

Neil <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Anyone know about SRAM hub?

There was a fella posting on mtbr about a year ago that he was using
the SRAM Dual Drive hub with a single cog for a three-speed
drivetrain, a faux singlespeed if you will. I haven't heard any
updates since the mtbr message boards switched formats, and it'd be
difficult to locate the old post in their archives.

No question, though, that the SRAM hub isn't as well sealed nor
lubricated as the Speedhub is. And if the SRAM Dual Drive shifts as
poorly as the SRAM Spectro 7-speed hub on my wife's cruiser, you
likely wouldn't be a happy camper.

AFAIK, Rohloff's 7-8 hiccup is only something for uninitiated Speedhub
users to comment / complain about. Once you get some time in on a
broken-in, smooth-shifting unit, both the rider and the hub "mesh" and
this problem *rarely* arises. If/when it does, an astute rider will
recognize the change in resistance immediately and "burp" the pedals,
instantly dropping the hub into the proper gear. Annoyance? Yes.
Problem? Nothing worth complaining about.

RE/

Quoted message said:

I don't
think I'd want to bodge a Rohloff hub onto a frame that hadn't been
designed around it - too much of a dog's breakfast in design terms if
you ask me.

I've done it on three FS' and a hardtail. Didn't enounter any problems at all.
The twin shift cables, I just ran cable housing all the way. If that accrues
"bodge" points, I'd also have to subtract about twice as many for getting rid of
the whole front der system and two chainwheels... Only caveat I'd offer is to
get Rohloff's "SpeedBone" so you can do away with the torque arm.
--
PeteCresswell

On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 23:03:09 GMT, "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email hidden]>
blathered:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't
think I'd want to bodge a Rohloff hub onto a frame that hadn't been
designed around it - too much of a dog's breakfast in design terms if
you ask me.

I've done it on three FS' and a hardtail. Didn't enounter any problems at all.
The twin shift cables, I just ran cable housing all the way. If that accrues
"bodge" points, I'd also have to subtract about twice as many for getting rid of
the whole front der system and two chainwheels... Only caveat I'd offer is to
get Rohloff's "SpeedBone" so you can do away with the torque arm.

Oh, I know it's do-able - just an aesthetic thing on my part. Like SS,
I would want a hub geared bike to be free of clutter like tensioners &
torque arms.

Pete Jones

RE/

Quoted message said:

just an aesthetic thing on my part. Like SS,
I would want a hub geared bike to be free of clutter like tensioners &
torque arms.

I think I know what you mean. The tensioner on my current FS *really* bugs me.
--
PeteCresswell

On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 11:42:21 GMT, "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email hidden]>
blathered:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just an aesthetic thing on my part.

I think I know what you mean.

But hey, I still wear lycra and run bar-ends on riser bars, so what do
I know?

Pete Jones