record sprint refurbishment

in message <[email hidden]>, ccc rider

(') said:

I may be asking a few questions over the coming weeks so bear with
this beginner-bike-fixer please! Am trying to update a Raleigh Record
Sprint still with original parts but all in a dilapidated state except
the wheels which seem to be OK.

The first easy job I thought was to get some new pedals: Shimano M515.
Then it dawned on me that this bike is so old it might have, as far as
modern day parts are concerned, non-standard fittings etc.

Anyone know if I can use these pedals on the existing crank before I
waste £8 on a 2nd hand pair :-)?

I too have a Record Sprint. The model name was used for a number of
years so not all Record Sprints are the same, of course, but mine was
(I think) a 1992 model and had Weinmann brakes and Weinmann 700C
wheels, Sachs Huret deraileurs, and a Sakae chainset with a pressed
steel spider and chainrings.

So, first: yes you can definitely use your new pedals, the standard for
pedal threads has not changed in fifty years.

Quoted message said:

(If you fancy being really helpful, are there any parts I really
cannot update because of sizes etc?) Cannot find much about the bike's
parts on the internet.

If you want to fit a modern nine or ten speed rear wheel you'll have to
have the frame 'cold set' (i.e. very carefully bent) because the rear
axles are now longer. If your Record Sprint is an older one with 27"
rather than 700C wheels then fitting new wheels at all will require
some thought because you would also have to replace the brakes at the
same time, and you would need deep drop calipers which might be hard to
find.

You can fit modern deraileurs and they will work perfectly well, but if
you want them to index you will need to have the frame cold set and fit
a modern back wheel and cassette as well as modern shifters. You can
replace the chainset (and if it's anything like mine this would be a
good idea).

In any case you _should_ replace the brakes if they are Weinmann or
Raleigh branded single pivot calipers as those are awful. Mine now has
Campagnolo Centaur calipers which are hugely better, but I would not
guarantee these would fit if you have an older 27" wheel frame.

Essentially replacing the brakes is easy and worthwhile. Replacing the
chainset is easy and worthwhile. Replacing the deraileurs is easy and
may be worthwhile. Converting to a full modern transmission system with
an eight, nine or ten speed cassette and indexed shifters is going to
mean spending quite a lot of money and may not be worthwhile. Having
said that I was planning on doing just that to mine until I got a much
nicer frame for a bargain price...

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Ring of great evil
Small one casts it into flame
Bringing rise of Men ;; gonzoron

(ccc rider) said:

I may be asking a few questions over the coming weeks so bear with
this beginner-bike-fixer please! Am trying to update a Raleigh Record
Sprint still with original parts but all in a dilapidated state except
the wheels which seem to be OK.

The first easy job I thought was to get some new pedals: Shimano M515.
Then it dawned on me that this bike is so old it might have, as far as
modern day parts are concerned, non-standard fittings etc.

There's nothing particularly non-standard or odd on a Record Sprint
that it can't be upgraded with modern components. I did a fair
make-over job on one myself reasonable recently, I think Pete Biggs
runs a Record Sprint too. All bikes of similar age share the same
issues when upgrading and none of it's rocket science. If you are
unsure about anything you want to tackle, ask away.

Quoted message said:

Anyone know if I can use these pedals on the existing crank before I
waste £8 on a 2nd hand pair :-)?

The pedals will fit fine. Firstly though, do the second hand ones you
are considering buying come with good condition cleats and cleat
bolts? If not you'd be better off buying a new pair. The standard
price for those pedals (which are a good choice for general cycling
btw) is about £20. New ones come complete with cleats, if you need to
buy some separately to go with your second hand jobs then they'll cost
you most of a tenner, so there's no real saving.

Also, you might want to check that you can remove your current pedals
before buying new ones. If current pedals are the originals, and they
haven't been detached from the bike for several years then there's a
possibility they could be seized in the cranks. You can generally get
seized pedals out, but sometimes they will be stuck so fast that they
rip the thread from the crank on extraction, meaning you then need a
new chainset. Buying a new chainset for that age of bike will almost
certainly force you to upgrade other parts of the drivetrain too, so
what you thought was initially just a quick, simply and cheap set of
new pedals becomes a rather bigger job.

There's every chance your pedals will come out without too much
bother.. but best to check before hand just in case 🙂

--

"Bob"

'The people have spoken, the [censored]'

Email address is spam trapped.
To reply directly remove the beverage.

Call me Bob said:

There's nothing particularly non-standard or odd on a Record Sprint
that it can't be upgraded with modern components. I did a fair
make-over job on one myself reasonable recently, I think Pete Biggs
runs a Record Sprint too.

Nah, that's Simon's. Mine's a Royal.

- - - - - -
Regarding the brakes: If loads of drop really is required, Alhonga Deep
Drop Dual Pivot brakes are available from St John Street Cycles, and I
expect Spa Cycles.

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Call me Bob said:

There's nothing particularly non-standard or odd on a Record Sprint
that it can't be upgraded with modern components. I did a fair
make-over job on one myself reasonable recently, I think Pete Biggs
runs a Record Sprint too.

Nah, that's Simon's. Mine's a Royal.

- - - - - -
Regarding the brakes: If loads of drop really is required, Alhonga
Deep Drop Dual Pivot brakes are available from St John Street Cycles,
and I expect Spa Cycles.

If it's a 27" and he's changing to 700C deep drop definitely will be
required. Mines a 700C frame ad even so my standard drop callipers are
close to the bottom of their adjustment. The Weinnman callipers are
fairly deep drop by modern standards.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'graveyards are full of indispensable people'

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Call me Bob said:

There's nothing particularly non-standard or odd on a Record Sprint
that it can't be upgraded with modern components. I did a fair
make-over job on one myself reasonable recently, I think Pete Biggs
runs a Record Sprint too.

Nah, that's Simon's. Mine's a Royal.

- - - - - -
Regarding the brakes: If loads of drop really is required, Alhonga
Deep Drop Dual Pivot brakes are available from St John Street Cycles,
and I expect Spa Cycles.

If it's a 27" and he's changing to 700C deep drop definitely will be
required. Mines a 700C frame ad even so my standard drop callipers are
close to the bottom of their adjustment. The Weinnman callipers are
fairly deep drop by modern standards.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'graveyards are full of indispensable people'

Just as an aside if you keep the Weinnman centre-pulls ( I think that's what
you have?) you can improve the braking out of all recognition by fitting
aero levers and decent brake-blocks. Not as good as dual pivots but OK. (I
have both systems, one on the old bike, the other on the new)
HTH
Julia

Simon Brooke [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

If it's a 27" and he's changing to 700C deep drop definitely will be
required. Mines a 700C frame ad even so my standard drop callipers are
close to the bottom of their adjustment. The Weinnman callipers are
fairly deep drop by modern standards.

Ahlongha <sp?> long drop dual pivots can be recommended (75mm maximum
drop!). I'm using one on the front of the fixer and while it's not as
good as the short drop 105 ones on my Giant, it's still pretty good at
stopping the bike.

Jon

Hi Simon

Discovered some more information about the bike and learnt alot too.

The bike was bought 1986. Wheels are Weinmann 700c (hurray - a real
relief!). Hubs are labelled Maillard. Tyres say 700x25C and 28 x 15/8
x 1. Any ideas about the meaning of the latter dimensions?

Brakes: Weinmann Type 500 sidepull calipers. Levers: Weinmann. Cranks:
Sugino GT. Rear derailleur: Exage 400 Ex. Chain: Sachs with double
peens (not original). All very interesting :-) Anyway, it sounds very
much in the same mould as yours was Simon!

Taking your advice and doing some research this is what I intend to do
upgrade-wise ...

Pedals: Shimano SH515/SH520 using SH55 cleats.

Brakes: checked out your Centaurs - quite expensive new although I
notice there's some 2nd hand on ebay at the moment :-).

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16143&item=7103618578&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Was thinking more of the Shimano Tiagra price-range new. However,
would you say second-hand plus new, good, brake blocks is a decent
idea?

I'll research chainsets next once I find out how to gauge how bad the
current one is.

Going to leave the derailleur for the present moment too for similar
reasons. Once the other things have been done will then revisit.

I definitely think the cost of a new cassette etc cannot be justified!
And when I get a better bike, I'll appreciate the step up from 12
gears more :-)

Was also reading about worn wheel rims. Haven't got a clue about the
state of mine although do know they're the originals.

Am going to take the thing to Brixton Cycles for a bit of advice and a
lookover of the frame etc: the main point is to get the bike
up-and-running again although the other intention is that I want to
get to the stage where I can take the thing apart, rebuild it and
generally experiment with maintaining a road bike knowing that if I
make mistakes it's not the end of the world.

The plan is to treat myself in Spring 2005 to a nice Audax-style
bicycle and, maybe ambitiously, might even try and build it myself
once I get a custom frame!

Well, thanks for your excellent post!

ccc R

Call me Bob <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The pedals will fit fine. Firstly though, do the second hand ones you
are considering buying come with good condition cleats and cleat
bolts? If not you'd be better off buying a new pair. The standard
price for those pedals (which are a good choice for general cycling
btw) is about £20. New ones come complete with cleats, if you need to
buy some separately to go with your second hand jobs then they'll cost
you most of a tenner, so there's no real saving.

I see what you're saying: I got hold of some new cleats SH55 for £5.
The M515/M520 pedals seem to come with SH51 cleats but I thought they
might be less manageable for someone used to toeclips. I'll probably
get the pedals new as you say.

Quoted message said:

Also, you might want to check that you can remove your current pedals
before buying new ones. If current pedals are the originals, and they
haven't been detached from the bike for several years then there's a
possibility they could be seized in the cranks. You can generally get
seized pedals out, but sometimes they will be stuck so fast that they
rip the thread from the crank on extraction, meaning you then need a
new chainset. Buying a new chainset for that age of bike will almost
certainly force you to upgrade other parts of the drivetrain too, so
what you thought was initially just a quick, simply and cheap set of
new pedals becomes a rather bigger job.

There's every chance your pedals will come out without too much
bother.. but best to check before hand just in case 🙂

I'm being relatively careful and, so far and maybe for that reason,
the things won't budge at all (and have read up so I think I'm
applying torque in the right direction)!!!

I'll try again tomorrow, allowing the WD40 to set in.

Cheers

ccc R

"JBB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Call me Bob wrote:
> There's nothing particularly non-standard or odd on a Record Sprint
> that it can't be upgraded with modern components. I did a fair
> make-over job on one myself reasonable recently, I think Pete Biggs
> runs a Record Sprint too.

Nah, that's Simon's. Mine's a Royal.

- - - - - -
Regarding the brakes: If loads of drop really is required, Alhonga
Deep Drop Dual Pivot brakes are available from St John Street Cycles,
and I expect Spa Cycles.

If it's a 27" and he's changing to 700C deep drop definitely will be
required. Mines a 700C frame ad even so my standard drop callipers are
close to the bottom of their adjustment. The Weinnman callipers are
fairly deep drop by modern standards.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'graveyards are full of indispensable people'

Just as an aside if you keep the Weinnman centre-pulls ( I think that's what
you have?) you can improve the braking out of all recognition by fitting
aero levers and decent brake-blocks. Not as good as dual pivots but OK. (I
have both systems, one on the old bike, the other on the new)
HTH
Julia

Hi Julia

Depending on the consensus, I might get some 2nd hand dual-pivot ones,
a bit like Simon suggested, but with some of those KoolStop brake
blocks. Btw I guessed the brakes were side-pulls (this was judging
from a picture of the different types on the parktool website)!

Aero levers sound like a good idea - some look reasonably priced too!

Thanks for the advice!

ccc R

ccc rider said:

Depending on the consensus, I might get some 2nd hand dual-pivot ones,
a bit like Simon suggested, but with some of those KoolStop brake
blocks.

I agree that combination would be good (although Campag brake block
compound isn't bad). So would new Mirage brakes (£36) with Kool Stops, as
the caliper arms are just as good as Centaur's.

Campag calipers don't have quick releases though (to ease wheel removal),
as Campag use quick releases in the levers instead. Also, clearance for
mudguards is limited. Shimano calipers do have QRs.

~PB

ccc rider said:

The bike was bought 1986. Wheels are Weinmann 700c (hurray - a real
relief!). Hubs are labelled Maillard. Tyres say 700x25C and 28 x 15/8
x 1. Any ideas about the meaning of the latter dimensions?

It's supposed to be a rough translation of the metric tyre outer diameter
and width to inches. I've no idea why three numbers are included (width &
height should be about the same). Fortunately, you can ignore all that
nonsense. 700x25 is the useful bit.

See http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, ccc rider

(') said:

Hi Simon

Discovered some more information about the bike and learnt alot too.

The bike was bought 1986. Wheels are Weinmann 700c (hurray - a real
relief!). Hubs are labelled Maillard. Tyres say 700x25C and 28 x 15/8
x 1. Any ideas about the meaning of the latter dimensions?

700c in American speak.

Quoted message said:

Taking your advice and doing some research this is what I intend to do
upgrade-wise ...

Pedals: Shimano SH515/SH520 using SH55 cleats.

Quoted message said:

Brakes: checked out your Centaurs - quite expensive new although I
notice there's some 2nd hand on ebay at the moment :-).

Well, I admit to being slightly a label junkie about Campag. Frankly any
reasonable quality dual pivot callipers would be a lot better than the
Weinmanns (including the cheaper model Campags, or Shimanos).

Quoted message said:

Was thinking more of the Shimano Tiagra price-range new. However,
would you say second-hand plus new, good, brake blocks is a decent
idea?

Probably fine. Make sure they're of reasonable quality and definitely go
dual pivot.

Quoted message said:

I'll research chainsets next once I find out how to gauge how bad the
current one is.

The issue with the Sugino chainset (at least my one) is flex (and
weight, of course). Being steel it hasn't worn badly and would probably
last another ten years happily. However under power I get a little
'chirrr... chirrr...' at every crank revolution because the spider is
flexing out of true and the chain is hitting the deraileur cage.

Quoted message said:

Going to leave the derailleur for the present moment too for similar
reasons. Once the other things have been done will then revisit.

I they work and aren't worn out there's not much reason to change them
(unless you're going for the whole drive train upgrade, shich is
expensive).

Quoted message said:

The plan is to treat myself in Spring 2005 to a nice Audax-style
bicycle and, maybe ambitiously, might even try and build it myself
once I get a custom frame!

Well, my plan was to completely upgrade my Record to an Audax machine.
Then I bought this:
<URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk:8180/dogfood/story?article=12> - and so
the revised plan was that the Record would be relegated to a winter
hack. But then two things have changed that. One is that I'm just not
comfortable leaving the Dolan parked outside shops and things, and the
other is I've started time trialling a bit. So the present idea is that
the Dolan will be a time trial/fast audax machine and the Record will
remain my every day runabout.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I shall continue to be an impossible person so long as those
who are now possible remain possible -- Michael Bakunin

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

ccc rider said:

Depending on the consensus, I might get some 2nd hand dual-pivot
ones, a bit like Simon suggested, but with some of those KoolStop
brake blocks.

I agree that combination would be good (although Campag brake block
compound isn't bad). So would new Mirage brakes (£36) with Kool
Stops, as the caliper arms are just as good as Centaur's.

Campag calipers don't have quick releases though (to ease wheel
removal),
as Campag use quick releases in the levers instead. Also, clearance
for
mudguards is limited. Shimano calipers do have QRs.

I'm running the Campag brakes with the original Weinmann levers. This is
OK because I use 700x20 tyres, which are no wider than the rims. If you
were running tyres any bigger than 700x23 you'd definitely have to go
either for Shimano brakes[1] or for Campag ergo levers.

[1] Or another make with the quick release at the calliper end

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

Campag calipers don't have quick releases though (to ease wheel
removal),
as Campag use quick releases in the levers instead. Also, clearance
for
mudguards is limited. Shimano calipers do have QRs.

I'm running the Campag brakes with the original Weinmann levers. This
is OK because I use 700x20 tyres, which are no wider than the rims.
If you were running tyres any bigger than 700x23 you'd definitely
have to go either for Shimano brakes[1] or for Campag ergo levers.

[1] Or another make with the quick release at the calliper end

.....if you like to get the wheel in/out rapidly, that is. If twiddling
the cable adjuster isn't enough, the other way is to let the tyre down and
squidge it through.

~PB

Quoted message said:

I'm running the Campag brakes with the original Weinmann levers. This is
OK because I use 700x20 tyres, which are no wider than the rims. If you
were running tyres any bigger than 700x23 you'd definitely have to go
either for Shimano brakes[1] or for Campag ergo levers.

[1] Or another make with the quick release at the calliper end

After bringing myself into the present from 1986 :-): Shimano brakes
have the release on them whereas Campag's have them on the levers
themselves. All ergo levers (by definition maybe) seem to have the
gear changers integrated?

So ... if I'm sticking with the original 12 speed (unless it's
completely buggered but Brixton Cycles will tell me soonish) and
down-tube shifters would you recommend any brake levers with the
release but without the gear changes (if I get the brakes you
mentioned as I can get some 2nd hand for not too-bad-a-price)?

Another small query: do you ever have mudguards with your Centaur
brakes or is the 'drop' just too small?

Tyre-wise, I'll probably plump for 700x23.

Thanks for advice so far!

ccc R

ccc rider said:

Quoted message said:

I'm running the Campag brakes with the original Weinmann levers.
This is OK because I use 700x20 tyres, which are no wider than the
rims. If you were running tyres any bigger than 700x23 you'd
definitely have to go either for Shimano brakes[1] or for Campag
ergo levers.

[1] Or another make with the quick release at the calliper end

After bringing myself into the present from 1986 :-): Shimano brakes
have the release on them whereas Campag's have them on the levers
themselves. All ergo levers (by definition maybe) seem to have the
gear changers integrated?

Yes Ergos by definition, but Campag also make brake levers without gear
shifters, that I suppose have quick releases.

But as I mentioned before, it's not strictly essential to have any quick
releases at all, anywhere, if you don't mind deflating the tyre. Even
that might not be necessary to with some 23mm tyres if the cable can be
adjusted enough. (Some "23" tyres are narrower than others!).

Quoted message said:

So ... if I'm sticking with the original 12 speed (unless it's
completely buggered but Brixton Cycles will tell me soonish) and
down-tube shifters would you recommend any brake levers with the
release but without the gear changes (if I get the brakes you
mentioned as I can get some 2nd hand for not too-bad-a-price)?

Another small query:

[to Simon]

Quoted message said:

do you ever have mudguards with your Centaur
brakes or is the 'drop' just too small?

It's not just about the drop from bolt to rim. I found the shape of
Campag caliper arms is such that there wasn't enough clearance for my
mudguards, whereas there was with Alhonga brakes that have differently
shaped arms.

I have a pair of converted Campagnolo Mirage Ergo levers (with plastic
levers, but nice plastic)--the shifting guts have been stripped out and
spacers inserted. I'll think up a price if you're interested. (I
previously advertised these with no hoods; now have some for it).

~PB email: p at biggs dot tc

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Yes Ergos by definition, but Campag also make brake levers without gear
shifters, that I suppose have quick releases.

The ones with alloy levers didn't in the past, though they may well
have changed the design since I bought mine in 1996. Record carbon
fibre brake levers are very similar in design to the Record c/f Ergo
levers, and as such probably do have a q/r.

David E. Belcher

in message <[email hidden]>, ccc rider

(') said:

Quoted message said:

I'm running the Campag brakes with the original Weinmann levers. This
is OK because I use 700x20 tyres, which are no wider than the rims.
If you were running tyres any bigger than 700x23 you'd definitely
have to go either for Shimano brakes[1] or for Campag ergo levers.

[1] Or another make with the quick release at the calliper end

After bringing myself into the present from 1986 :-): Shimano brakes
have the release on them whereas Campag's have them on the levers
themselves. All ergo levers (by definition maybe) seem to have the
gear changers integrated?

I think so, yes. There's nothing wrong with Shimano's brakes,
particularly not at the top end of the range.

Quoted message said:

So ... if I'm sticking with the original 12 speed (unless it's
completely buggered but Brixton Cycles will tell me soonish) and
down-tube shifters would you recommend any brake levers with the
release but without the gear changes (if I get the brakes you
mentioned as I can get some 2nd hand for not too-bad-a-price)?

Another small query: do you ever have mudguards with your Centaur
brakes or is the 'drop' just too small?

I don't like mudguards and currently don't have them on any of my bikes.
But on a club ride recently I saw someone else with a set of clip-on
mudguards which don't go through the brake arch and can consequently be
used on bikes with no mudguard clearance. Anyone know what these were?
They looked quite smart and were extremely functional.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Wannabe a Web designer?
<URL:http://userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/97dec/19971206.html>

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:05:05 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

() said:

I don't like mudguards and currently don't have them on any of my bikes.
But on a club ride recently I saw someone else with a set of clip-on
mudguards which don't go through the brake arch and can consequently be
used on bikes with no mudguard clearance. Anyone know what these were?
They looked quite smart and were extremely functional.

SKS Race Blades. And very nice they are too.

--
Matt K.
"Take thee this thing covered with that stuff and give it unto
that guy, that he may do things with it."