Newbie training question

Roman Terps said:

Been lurking here a few days....great group with very helpful answers. I
started cycling for health (53yo) about 10 weeks ago. Joined a club and
have been on 2 saturday rides (25 mi.), and I usually get an hour or so 3-4
weekdays. I really do enjoy it. What I cant figure out is the technique
for climbing while in standing position. I stand when I have to restart
from a traffic light, but getting uphill standing feels awkward and not as
stable as I think it should be. Can anyone refer me to a tutorial that will
discuss climbing styles. This on a road bike, on asphalt, not MTB.

Unless you feel better standing than sitting, don't do it. Trust your body to
know where you belong. I don't know what general level of familiarity you have
with the bike, but these are pretty squirrelly creatures until you've got a few
thousand miles under them.

HTH.

Ron

Roman Terps said:

Been lurking here a few days....great group with very helpful answers. I
started cycling for health (53yo) about 10 weeks ago. Joined a club and
have been on 2 saturday rides (25 mi.), and I usually get an hour or so 3-4
weekdays. I really do enjoy it. What I cant figure out is the technique
for climbing while in standing position. I stand when I have to restart
from a traffic light, but getting uphill standing feels awkward and not as
stable as I think it should be. Can anyone refer me to a tutorial that will
discuss climbing styles. This on a road bike, on asphalt, not MTB.
Jack

What sort of bike? Track bikes and racing bikes feel stable out of the
saddle compared to touring bikes, which are "floppy" by comparison due
to the slack head angle. It just takes a bit of getting used to.

Zog. Not a track bike or a racing bike. It is sort of a cheap cross
between MTB and a road bike. No suspension but it has knobby tires that
have a solid pattern in the center (I was told that the solid centerline on
the tire pattern indicated a combo off road, on road tread) It was an
inexpensive bike that I got at a pawn shop. I think it is maybe a Raleigh
(Oh, shut up, I already told you I was a newbie). Maybe it doesnt really
matter cause I met a very generous fellow in the club who has a Kestrel on
order and he will sell me his Specialized Sirrus Elite at a great price. I
s'pose that one will ride better sitting or standing. I just thought
something was amiss when I felt safer climbing in a sitting position and
everyone else was standing on his/her pedals.

Both of you have been very helpful. Thanks much.

Jack
"Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:414875b5.0@entanet...

Quoted message said:

Roman Terps said:

Been lurking here a few days....great group with very helpful answers.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

started cycling for health (53yo) about 10 weeks ago. Joined a club and
have been on 2 saturday rides (25 mi.), and I usually get an hour or so

3-4

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

weekdays. I really do enjoy it. What I cant figure out is the

technique

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for climbing while in standing position. I stand when I have to restart
from a traffic light, but getting uphill standing feels awkward and not

as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stable as I think it should be. Can anyone refer me to a tutorial that

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

discuss climbing styles. This on a road bike, on asphalt, not MTB.
Jack

What sort of bike? Track bikes and racing bikes feel stable out of the
saddle compared to touring bikes, which are "floppy" by comparison due
to the slack head angle. It just takes a bit of getting used to.

Roman Terps said:

Been lurking here a few days....great group with very helpful answers. I
started cycling for health (53yo) about 10 weeks ago. Joined a club and
have been on 2 saturday rides (25 mi.), and I usually get an hour or so 3-4
weekdays. I really do enjoy it. What I cant figure out is the technique
for climbing while in standing position. I stand when I have to restart
from a traffic light, but getting uphill standing feels awkward and not as
stable as I think it should be. Can anyone refer me to a tutorial that will
discuss climbing styles. This on a road bike, on asphalt, not MTB.

It is unstable, especially at very low speeds.

Take a look at a few sites google gave me (which are not
all that consistent on pedaling style...)

http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/techctr/standing.html
http://www.bicyclesource.com/you/road/road-climbing.shtml
http://www.cobr.co.uk/e-cobr_information/t_and_r_section/sections/terminilogy_technique/hill_climbing.htm

--Blair
"One for the no-[censored]-sherlock file:
'Avoiding hills will not improve
your ability to climb them.'"

Blair, good links, thanks.
When you say unstable at low speeds, I dont get it. I feel very stable when
I pedal standing up from zero velocity like from a traffic light. What
gives me the willies is climbing seated, then needing to stand to maintain
forward (though slow) velocity. Maybe the difference is that from zero
velocity I know I am always accerating and thus becoming more stable, where
in a climb I am not necessarily accelerating, and so I can feel the
instability because I am not accelerating out of that condition. Ya think?
Jack
[Snip].

Quoted message said:

It is unstable, especially at very low speeds.

Take a look at a few sites google gave me (which are not
all that consistent on pedaling style...)

http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/techctr/standing.html
http://www.bicyclesource.com/you/road/road-climbing.shtml

http://www.cobr.co.uk/e-cobr_information/t_and_r_section/sections/terminilogy_technique/hill_climbing.htm

Quoted message said:

--Blair
"One for the no-[censored]-sherlock file:
'Avoiding hills will not improve
your ability to climb them.'"

"Roman Terps" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Been lurking here a few days....great group with very helpful answers. I
started cycling for health (53yo) about 10 weeks ago. Joined a club and
have been on 2 saturday rides (25 mi.), and I usually get an hour or so 3-4
weekdays. I really do enjoy it. What I cant figure out is the technique
for climbing while in standing position. I stand when I have to restart
from a traffic light, but getting uphill standing feels awkward and not as
stable as I think it should be. Can anyone refer me to a tutorial that will
discuss climbing styles. This on a road bike, on asphalt, not MTB.
Jack

First of all, are you comfortable standing while riding on the flats?
If you've never tried, go to a parking lot or smooth grassy field
(golf courses are great ... kidding!) and try riding around without
sitting. Just experience moving your weight around on the bike. This
is easiest with a little speed since you are more stable. Then try
going up small rises.

It's not as stable as sitting, and it feels a little different, but
you'll get the hang of it. I doubt it is the quality of your bike. I
can stand and ride uphill on a BMX bike designed for a 6 yo.

Tim

"Roman Terps" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Blair, good links, thanks.
When you say unstable at low speeds, I dont get it. I feel very stable when
I pedal standing up from zero velocity like from a traffic light. What
gives me the willies is climbing seated, then needing to stand to maintain
forward (though slow) velocity.

You didn't say anything about your conditioning level, but, since you
are on pavement and relatively new to cycling, this sounds to me like
your strength and power output may be factors. If you are being
brought to a near standstill while seated, you need a lower, easier
gear until you develop the strength to force a higher gear as you
stand up. If you are in a sufficiently low gear to start with, when
you stand to pedal you will probably accelerate some and may need to
shift into a higher gear if you don't feel comfortable with the higher
rpm you are going to get. Conversely, if you are almost at a stop
while seated and you can't increase your cadence when you stand,
you're going to have a hard time not falling over.

But, again, if you are almost stopped because of the grade, you are
going to need to put out some power to get out of the saddle, and you
may not have the power available. The whole point of standing is to be
able to apply more power, if less efficiently. You need to find a gear
for each climb where you are still able to accelerate when you stand.
After that you can work on the finer points of technique.

JP

Roman Terps said:

Blair, good links, thanks.
When you say unstable at low speeds, I dont get it. I feel very stable when
I pedal standing up from zero velocity like from a traffic light.

Try it on an 8% grade.

Quoted message said:

What
gives me the willies is climbing seated, then needing to stand to maintain
forward (though slow) velocity.

Yes, seated will be even less stable at low speed on a hill.

Quoted message said:

Maybe the difference is that from zero
velocity I know I am always accerating and thus becoming more stable, where
in a climb I am not necessarily accelerating, and so I can feel the
instability because I am not accelerating out of that condition. Ya think?

I think the instability comes from the extra torques you put
on the frame from the extra force it takes to maintain any
given speed on a hill.

There's more side-to-side motion. If you haven't trained
yourself by riding on hills (most kids who ride a lot for
fun and transportation learn it naturally) it's a whole
new skill compared with riding on the flats.

One of the reasons I almost never ride my mountain bike
is because I didn't grow up with those things and it feels
very strange and unstable to be riding on rapidly varying
grades over very bumpy surfaces on a bike with a totally
unfamiliar geometry.

Just ride more. You'll get used to it.

--Blair
"Said the saddle to my ass..."

JP, I think you make good points. I need to deliver more power sooner. By
the time I have to stand it is about too late and I have gotten "behind the
power curve" I find that I have been shifting for my comfortable cadence.
I notice that my cadence is frequently a bit slower than most others in my
group. I guess I need to think about upping the cadence in the hills and be
more prepared to downshift to apply standing power. Thanks for your input,
it has given me plenty to work with on my next club ride this weekend.
Jack
"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Roman Terps" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Blair, good links, thanks.
When you say unstable at low speeds, I dont get it. I feel very stable

when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I pedal standing up from zero velocity like from a traffic light. What
gives me the willies is climbing seated, then needing to stand to

maintain

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

forward (though slow) velocity.

You didn't say anything about your conditioning level, but, since you
are on pavement and relatively new to cycling, this sounds to me like
your strength and power output may be factors. If you are being
brought to a near standstill while seated, you need a lower, easier
gear until you develop the strength to force a higher gear as you
stand up. If you are in a sufficiently low gear to start with, when
you stand to pedal you will probably accelerate some and may need to
shift into a higher gear if you don't feel comfortable with the higher
rpm you are going to get. Conversely, if you are almost at a stop
while seated and you can't increase your cadence when you stand,
you're going to have a hard time not falling over.

But, again, if you are almost stopped because of the grade, you are
going to need to put out some power to get out of the saddle, and you
may not have the power available. The whole point of standing is to be
able to apply more power, if less efficiently. You need to find a gear
for each climb where you are still able to accelerate when you stand.
After that you can work on the finer points of technique.

JP

"Blair P. Houghton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Roman Terps said:

Blair, good links, thanks.
When you say unstable at low speeds, I dont get it. I feel very stable

when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I pedal standing up from zero velocity like from a traffic light.

Try it on an 8% grade.

Blair, I'm a newbie. I don't know what an 8% grade looks like, use
adjectives.....I'm not digital yet.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What
gives me the willies is climbing seated, then needing to stand to

maintain

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

forward (though slow) velocity.

Yes, seated will be even less stable at low speed on a hill.

Quoted message said:

Maybe the difference is that from zero
velocity I know I am always accerating and thus becoming more stable,

where

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in a climb I am not necessarily accelerating, and so I can feel the
instability because I am not accelerating out of that condition. Ya

think?

Quoted message said:

I think the instability comes from the extra torques you put
on the frame from the extra force it takes to maintain any
given speed on a hill.

There's more side-to-side motion. If you haven't trained
yourself by riding on hills (most kids who ride a lot for
fun and transportation learn it naturally) it's a whole
new skill compared with riding on the flats.

I did quite a bit of this as a kid, but it was on the flats. My original
question was in reference to learning the skill of the standing climb.

Quoted message said:

One of the reasons I almost never ride my mountain bike
is because I didn't grow up with those things and it feels
very strange and unstable to be riding on rapidly varying
grades over very bumpy surfaces on a bike with a totally
unfamiliar geometry.

Just ride more. You'll get used to it.

--Blair
"Said the saddle to my ass..."

"Tim Howe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Roman Terps" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Been lurking here a few days....great group with very helpful answers.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

started cycling for health (53yo) about 10 weeks ago. Joined a club and
have been on 2 saturday rides (25 mi.), and I usually get an hour or so

3-4

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

weekdays. I really do enjoy it. What I cant figure out is the

technique

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for climbing while in standing position. I stand when I have to restart
from a traffic light, but getting uphill standing feels awkward and not

as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stable as I think it should be. Can anyone refer me to a tutorial that

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

discuss climbing styles. This on a road bike, on asphalt, not MTB.
Jack

First of all, are you comfortable standing while riding on the flats?
If you've never tried, go to a parking lot or smooth grassy field
(golf courses are great ... kidding!) and try riding around without
sitting. Just experience moving your weight around on the bike. This
is easiest with a little speed since you are more stable. Then try
going up small rises.

It's not as stable as sitting, and it feels a little different, but
you'll get the hang of it. I doubt it is the quality of your bike. I
can stand and ride uphill on a BMX bike designed for a 6 yo.

Tim

Thanks Tim.
As to your question: I LOVE standing in the flats. The faster the better.
When coasting I like to stand and goof off (free kinetic energy!) by
swerving and slaloming etc. In a long ride, periodically I will stand and
wiggle the bike and settle down gently on the seat to do the bike version of
the athletic scratch to the jewels. If I don't do this they begin to really
burn, but that is another thread. The point is that I find the bike MORE
controllable in a stand than sitting on the saddle. But, all of this is at
speed. My problem is in the climb and I think Blair identified my problem
very well. I suspected that it really had nothng to do with the make/model
of the bike, nice to see your comment on that.
Jack

"Roman Terps" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I guess I need to think about upping the cadence in the hills and be
more prepared to downshift to apply standing power.

Try to downshift earlier so that when you go to stand your cadence
could actually increase. A lot of people when they are climbing out of
the saddle upshift a gear or two to offset the tendency to increase
cadence when they stand, or because they like a slower cadence when
out of the saddle. I think that if you feel the need to downshift when
you get out of the saddle you probably are already in too high a gear.

JP

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Roman Terps" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I guess I need to think about upping the cadence in the hills and be
more prepared to downshift to apply standing power.

Try to downshift earlier so that when you go to stand your cadence
could actually increase. A lot of people when they are climbing out of
the saddle upshift a gear or two to offset the tendency to increase
cadence when they stand, or because they like a slower cadence when
out of the saddle. I think that if you feel the need to downshift when
you get out of the saddle you probably are already in too high a gear.

JP

All of what you have been saying proved out this morning on my club ride.
I'll be in the pollywog group for quite a while to come. There were some
inclines and they were really no problem, but there was one extended rise
that was steeper than the others and longer too. I was riding next to one
of the club coaches, I asked him to ride nearby and coach me up the hill.
Most of the trouble I get myself into stems from the fact that I am
comfortable with a slower candence than most folks. Coach sais to downshift
to raise the candence so each revolution takes less total energy which will
allow me to maintain uphill speed. Coach sais as soon as I am
decellerating, downshift again and again until I can maintain uphill speed
(within reason). He suggested practicing standing pedaling on the flats
until I can better select gears and become more fit. It is working out
pretty well this way.

On my first club ride I finished with 3 riders behind me in a field of about
15. Second ride I finished alone cause I failed to follow the trip slip.
Today I stayed with the pack (a group of 6 of the 10 that started together)
and about 3 miles from the finish (on a 25 mi ride) I became frustrated with
the pace and all the small talk and felt the need to put more work into it
and I left them to their chit chat and pulled away to the finish. I was 4th
to finish in a group of about 10. Was that a rude thing to do? Is it OK to
leave the others behind so I can work at my own pace?
Jack