Fitment question

Paul Cassel said:

On another note, I do have carpal which I've treated with splints to the
best outcome w/o surgery. I can't afford the surgery (no insurance) so
I'm stuck with this. I'm guessing the numb hands are related to my
carpal syndrome. Has anybody any ideas (other than switching positions
regularly) to relieve this numbness?

TIA.

-Paul

Be sure that the saddle is not tilted forward at all. If it is tilted,
you will be constantly supporting weight on the hands. Another way to
reduce the hand pressure is to raise the bars, but if the saddle is
tilting forward you will still have the problem.

Dan Daniel said:

Paul Cassel said:

On another note, I do have carpal which I've treated with splints to the
best outcome w/o surgery. I can't afford the surgery (no insurance) so
I'm stuck with this. I'm guessing the numb hands are related to my
carpal syndrome. Has anybody any ideas (other than switching positions
regularly) to relieve this numbness?

TIA.

-Paul

Be sure that the saddle is not tilted forward at all. If it is tilted,
you will be constantly supporting weight on the hands. Another way to
reduce the hand pressure is to raise the bars, but if the saddle is
tilting forward you will still have the problem.

I'm unsure. I'll check. You think pressure on hands causes the numbness?
I figured it was the angle of my hand to wrist causing a nerve pinch.

-paul

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Be sure that the saddle is not tilted forward at all. If it is tilted,
you will be constantly supporting weight on the hands. Another way to
reduce the hand pressure is to raise the bars, but if the saddle is
tilting forward you will still have the problem.

I'm unsure. I'll check. You think pressure on hands causes the numbness?
I figured it was the angle of my hand to wrist causing a nerve pinch.

-paul

Sure, pressure on the nerve where it sits at the bottom of the palm can
cause numbness. That is why cycling gloves have the pads located where they
are located--the pads keep a channel open for the nerve when the hands grip
the bars.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/pain.html#fingers

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Be sure that the saddle is not tilted forward at all. If it is tilted,
you will be constantly supporting weight on the hands. Another way to
reduce the hand pressure is to raise the bars, but if the saddle is
tilting forward you will still have the problem.

I'm unsure. I'll check. You think pressure on hands causes the numbness?
I figured it was the angle of my hand to wrist causing a nerve pinch.

-paul

Sure, pressure on the nerve where it sits at the bottom of the palm can
cause numbness. That is why cycling gloves have the pads located where they
are located--the pads keep a channel open for the nerve when the hands grip
the bars.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/pain.html#fingers

Pat in TX

Paul Cassel said:

Dan Daniel said:

Paul Cassel said:

On another note, I do have carpal which I've treated with splints to the
best outcome w/o surgery. I can't afford the surgery (no insurance) so
I'm stuck with this. I'm guessing the numb hands are related to my
carpal syndrome. Has anybody any ideas (other than switching positions
regularly) to relieve this numbness?

TIA.

-Paul

Be sure that the saddle is not tilted forward at all. If it is tilted,
you will be constantly supporting weight on the hands. Another way to
reduce the hand pressure is to raise the bars, but if the saddle is
tilting forward you will still have the problem.

I'm unsure. I'll check. You think pressure on hands causes the numbness?

Oh, I know it can. I've had numbness that went away after tilting the
saddle back a bit. It's not the only cause but it's a good starting
point.

Quoted message said:

I figured it was the angle of my hand to wrist causing a nerve pinch.

-paul

That can be a problem, especially if you have some carpal tunnel
problems already. Have you tried rotating the brake levers to
different positions? In general, I think that people's tendency is to
have the brake levers point too far forward. I like them pointing
down, maybe 30 degrees off perpindicular to the ground? Take the
proper wrench and ride around a bit and play with the angle.

Dan Daniel said:

Paul Cassel said:

Dan Daniel said:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:50:23 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]> wrote:

>On another note, I do have carpal which I've treated with splints to the
>best outcome w/o surgery. I can't afford the surgery (no insurance) so
>I'm stuck with this. I'm guessing the numb hands are related to my
>carpal syndrome. Has anybody any ideas (other than switching positions
>regularly) to relieve this numbness?
>
>TIA.
>
>-Paul

Be sure that the saddle is not tilted forward at all. If it is tilted,
you will be constantly supporting weight on the hands. Another way to
reduce the hand pressure is to raise the bars, but if the saddle is
tilting forward you will still have the problem.

I'm unsure. I'll check. You think pressure on hands causes the numbness?

Oh, I know it can. I've had numbness that went away after tilting the
saddle back a bit. It's not the only cause but it's a good starting
point.

Quoted message said:

I figured it was the angle of my hand to wrist causing a nerve pinch.

Quoted message said:

That can be a problem, especially if you have some carpal tunnel
problems already. Have you tried rotating the brake levers to
different positions? In general, I think that people's tendency is to
have the brake levers point too far forward. I like them pointing
down, maybe 30 degrees off perpindicular to the ground? Take the
proper wrench and ride around a bit and play with the angle.

Thanks. I'll try gloves and on my bike rotating the brake levers. The
road bike has drops so the issue isn't there, but the numbness is.

-paul

Dan Daniel said:

Paul Cassel said:

Dan Daniel said:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:50:23 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]> wrote:

>On another note, I do have carpal which I've treated with splints to the
>best outcome w/o surgery. I can't afford the surgery (no insurance) so
>I'm stuck with this. I'm guessing the numb hands are related to my
>carpal syndrome. Has anybody any ideas (other than switching positions
>regularly) to relieve this numbness?
>
>TIA.
>
>-Paul

Be sure that the saddle is not tilted forward at all. If it is tilted,
you will be constantly supporting weight on the hands. Another way to
reduce the hand pressure is to raise the bars, but if the saddle is
tilting forward you will still have the problem.

I'm unsure. I'll check. You think pressure on hands causes the numbness?

Oh, I know it can. I've had numbness that went away after tilting the
saddle back a bit. It's not the only cause but it's a good starting
point.

It's definitely a factor. Didn't Badger mention not long ago that he
adjusted his saddle tilt back just a touch, and his wrist pain went
away? There's another example for you.

I'm having some fit issues with my new bike myself -- did a 30 mile ride
on Monday, and here it's Wednesday and the bases of the palms of my
hands are still tingling. My saddle is absolutely level, so that's not
the issue. I'm thinking maybe I'm just not adjusting to the more laid
out position on my sport road, after not having a road bike for 30
years, because by the book everything is adjusted where it should be.

-km

--
the black rose
proud to be owned by a yorkie
http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts

the black rose said:

It's definitely a factor. Didn't Badger mention not long ago that he
adjusted his saddle tilt back just a touch, and his wrist pain went
away? There's another example for you.

I'm having some fit issues with my new bike myself -- did a 30 mile ride
on Monday, and here it's Wednesday and the bases of the palms of my
hands are still tingling. My saddle is absolutely level, so that's not
the issue. I'm thinking maybe I'm just not adjusting to the more laid
out position on my sport road, after not having a road bike for 30
years, because by the book everything is adjusted where it should be.

-km

Yes that solved the problem mostly, but I still get some of the numbness at
times. A simple flexing of the arm, and shaking the hand out and it
decreases. I have a feeling my H/B are still too low, but have been trying
to adapt. I probably would do well to flip the stem, which would raise the
H/B another 1/2", it appears.

Are you able to ride OK without hands? That can be an indicator of the best
saddle position, imo. IOW, even though the saddle is level using a
carpenter's level, in conjunction with your anatomic sit position, it might
be tilting you one way or another.

How radical is the difference between the seat height and the handlebars?
My pet theory is that if you start with the handlebars higher than usual,
and the symptoms go away, then you can incrementally lower it in stages and
see if the problem recurs. Then you go back a click and you're there.

-B

the black rose said:

It's definitely a factor. Didn't Badger mention not long ago that he
adjusted his saddle tilt back just a touch, and his wrist pain went
away? There's another example for you.

I'm having some fit issues with my new bike myself -- did a 30 mile ride
on Monday, and here it's Wednesday and the bases of the palms of my
hands are still tingling.

I can't speak to fitment, but I know that having tingling for that long
must be quite damaging in the long run if that continues. This carpal,
which started for me with just such tingling (not from bikes) is
terrible. I sometimes drop things just because I lose my grip sensiblity.

I strongly suggest you take such long term tingling / numbness seriously
and address it. I wouldn't wish this carpal condition on anybody (well,
few folks maybe).

-paul

Badger_South said:

the black rose said:

--snip--
I'm having some fit issues with my new bike myself -- did a 30 mile ride
on Monday, and here it's Wednesday and the bases of the palms of my
hands are still tingling. My saddle is absolutely level, so that's not
the issue. I'm thinking maybe I'm just not adjusting to the more laid
out position on my sport road, after not having a road bike for 30
years, because by the book everything is adjusted where it should be.

-km

--snip--

Are you able to ride OK without hands? That can be an indicator of the best
saddle position, imo. IOW, even though the saddle is level using a
carpenter's level, in conjunction with your anatomic sit position, it might
be tilting you one way or another.

Hmm, I have no idea how to evaluate that. As a female, I am *highly*
reluctant to tilt the saddle nose up. The idea makes me cringe. I
noodled around with the fore-aft position of the saddle and ended up
inadvertantly tilting it down and got more pressure on my hands. LBS
leveled it back for me (before the 30 mile ride -- which, by the way, is
my longest ride so far this summer since getting on the bike again).

And nope, I can't ride without hands, never been able to. I wish I
could, but at my age, I have no idea how to learn.

Quoted message said:

How radical is the difference between the seat height and the handlebars?

It's not. They're close to level with each other, and I'm positive the
difference is less than an inch. I should go out and look, really, but
there's a whole lot of heavy rain falling between my cozy house and my
detached garage right now. (Remnants of Frances dripping on us -- as if
we need even MORE rain than we've already gotten this summer, argh.)

I know that raising the stem will usually bring the handlebar a bit
closer to the saddle, depending on the head tube angle. My bike has one
of those ding-dangled adjustable stems (already adjusted all the way up
and back), so I have NO clue how to adjust it further.

Eh, okay, I waded out there. The top of the handlebar is 1 cm higher
than the top of the saddle. I took a look at the stem and decided I
still don't have a clue how to make further adjustments. I'll have to
ask the guys at the bike shop.

Quoted message said:

My pet theory is that if you start with the handlebars higher than usual,
and the symptoms go away, then you can incrementally lower it in stages and
see if the problem recurs. Then you go back a click and you're there.

I may have to switch to a more standard stem to test that theory, which
is probably worth pursuing. It would have the side effect of making my
bike a bit lighter, too, since the adjustable stem is a good bit heavier
than the stem Cannondale puts on its other road bikes.

-km

--
the black rose
proud to be owned by a yorkie
http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts

Quoted message said:

How radical is the difference between the seat height and the handlebars?
My pet theory is that if you start with the handlebars higher than usual,
and the symptoms go away, then you can incrementally lower it in stages and
see if the problem recurs. Then you go back a click and you're there.

-Ba

A couple of other ideas.
I ride with really low handle bars compared to the seat. I am very
flexible in the lower back and find this position to be comfortable
and aerodynamic as well. And I don't have a problem with numb hands.
So, I think there are a couple of other variables to look at.
First, are you able to ride with a slight flex at the elbow? The flex
is in effect a shock absorber. Most of the folks that I have seen ride
who complain of hand problems apper to me to have locked elbows. I
believe that this causes lots of unnecessary stress in the entire
upper body.
Second, and this is a bit hard to improve in the short run, what is
your core strength? Even though I ride in a very low position I have
good core strength and in fact am not just letting all my upper body
wieght just lay on my hands. Especially on rough road sections, bumps,
etc I am holding lots of the weight by my core muscles and not having
all that add to the shock on the hands/arms.

I'm not arguing against proper bike fit, and if a change in saddle
position or another simple change fixes the problem you are all set.
But I find that often sports injuries are related to deficiencies in
overall fitness/strength.

the black rose said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

--snip--
I'm having some fit issues with my new bike myself -- did a 30 mile ride
on Monday, and here it's Wednesday and the bases of the palms of my
hands are still tingling. My saddle is absolutely level, so that's not
the issue. I'm thinking maybe I'm just not adjusting to the more laid
out position on my sport road, after not having a road bike for 30
years, because by the book everything is adjusted where it should be.

-km

Quoted message said:

Hi, not long after I got my LeMond, I did a longer ride than I was
used to. I had numbing problems, that took a long time to go away. I
found that besides the saddle angle and bar height, that it was how I
was resting my hands on the bars. I ride on the hoods a lot and what I
was doing, was putting all my weight on the heels of my hands.
Obviously, now anyway, that is a bad thing to do. I try to grip the
hoods from the sides, keeping my palms off the bars, as much as
possible. It is not perfect, but it helps.
I'm still experimenting with gloves too. I'm finding that light
padding like the Pearl Izumi White Lines are better than those with
thick padding. I tried the Ironman Elites and returned them after one
ride. It didn't hurt the arguement for return, when a seam split,
during that first ride.
I am now also using Specialized Bar Phat which has gel pads under the
tape. That may be why lightly padded gloves are working better, for
me.

Life is Good!
Jeff

Wed, 08 Sep 2004 23:25:29 -0500,
<[email hidden]>, Jeff Starr

Quoted message said:

I am now also using Specialized Bar Phat which has gel pads under the
tape. That may be why lightly padded gloves are working better, for
me.

The larger diameter of the bar is probably as significant as whether
it's taped with foam or gel.
Seams inside the gloves deserve attention when looking for comfortable
gloves.
--
zk

Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:37:36 GMT,
<[email hidden]>,

the black rose said:

And nope, I can't ride without hands, never been able to. I wish I
could, but at my age, I have no idea how to learn.

Steer with your root chakra.
--
zk

Wed, 08 Sep 2004 18:03:24 GMT,
<[email hidden]>, the black rose

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking maybe I'm just not adjusting to the more laid
out position on my sport road, after not having a road bike for 30
years, because by the book everything is adjusted where it should be.

Cold weather accentuates the problem.
There is a period of adjustment. Your hands will "harden" somewhat as
you ride more. Numbness in the ring finger and pinky are bad signs.

My hands suffered permanent nerve damage during my hiatus. For the
first six months after I returned to cycling they caused me more
discomfort than they do now.

.. . . well, except for the lingering effects of a sprained right wrist
and thumb 9 weeks ago.
--
zk

Zoot Katz said:

Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:37:36 GMT,
<[email hidden]>,

the black rose said:

And nope, I can't ride without hands, never been able to. I wish I
could, but at my age, I have no idea how to learn.

Steer with your root chakra.

Uh huh. *nods sagely*

*whisper* Whaddidhesay?

-km

--
Only cowards fight kids.
the black rose
proud to be owned by a yorkie
http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts

Thu, 09 Sep 2004 16:58:18 GMT,
<[email hidden]>, the black rose

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And nope, I can't ride without hands, never been able to. I wish I
could, but at my age, I have no idea how to learn.

Steer with your root chakra.

Uh huh. *nods sagely*

*whisper* Whaddidhesay?

That's left coast lotusland jargon referring to an area approximating
your center of gravity. Kundalini yoga says it's:

The Muladhara, First or Root Chakra, is located at the base of the
spine, at the perineum. The name means support, or foundation.

It is associated, in the body with the large intestine, feet and legs,
with the element earth, and with the colors red and maroon.

Human Challenge and Gift - to feel safe and secure in the physical
plane, to manifest to meet our basic needs.

Soul Desire - to feel nurtured and nourished, to experience belonging
to the whole.

Primal Relationship - with physical reality, the Earth, natural
forces, body, feeling sensations.

http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/chakra1.html
--
zk

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thu, 09 Sep 2004 16:58:18 GMT,
<[email hidden]>, the black rose

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>And nope, I can't ride without hands, never been able to. I wish I
>could, but at my age, I have no idea how to learn.

Steer with your root chakra.

Uh huh. *nods sagely*

*whisper* Whaddidhesay?

That's left coast lotusland jargon referring to an area approximating
your center of gravity. Kundalini yoga says it's:

The Muladhara, First or Root Chakra, is located at the base of the
spine, at the perineum. The name means support, or foundation.

It is associated, in the body with the large intestine, feet and legs,
with the element earth, and with the colors red and maroon.

Human Challenge and Gift - to feel safe and secure in the physical
plane, to manifest to meet our basic needs.

Soul Desire - to feel nurtured and nourished, to experience belonging
to the whole.

Primal Relationship - with physical reality, the Earth, natural
forces, body, feeling sensations.

It corresponds to Malkut, "Kingdom", the bottom-most sefirah on the Tree of
Life, located in the same part of the body. It is the channel for the
energies of the other sefirot -- it transmits them into the physical world.
Like the root chakra, the sefirah of Malkut corresponds to the base of the
spine, the feet and the legs, and with the chanted vowel "oo". It also has
do with physical reality and the earth. Etc.

The Tree of Life clearly has a relationship to the Chakra system, as you can
easily correspond the seven levels of the ten sefirot to the seven chakras.
However, I don't know which one preceded which, and anything about their
mutual history and development.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
please substitute yahoo for mousepotato to reply
Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

Claire Petersky said:

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thu, 09 Sep 2004 16:58:18 GMT,
<[email hidden]>, the black rose

Quoted message said:

>>And nope, I can't ride without hands, never been able to. I wish I
>>could, but at my age, I have no idea how to learn.
>
>Steer with your root chakra.

Uh huh. *nods sagely*

*whisper* Whaddidhesay?

That's left coast lotusland jargon referring to an area approximating
your center of gravity. Kundalini yoga says it's:

The Muladhara, First or Root Chakra, is located at the base of the
spine, at the perineum. The name means support, or foundation.

It is associated, in the body with the large intestine, feet and legs,
with the element earth, and with the colors red and maroon.

Human Challenge and Gift - to feel safe and secure in the physical
plane, to manifest to meet our basic needs.

Soul Desire - to feel nurtured and nourished, to experience belonging
to the whole.

Primal Relationship - with physical reality, the Earth, natural
forces, body, feeling sensations.

It corresponds to Malkut, "Kingdom", the bottom-most sefirah on the Tree of
Life, located in the same part of the body. It is the channel for the
energies of the other sefirot -- it transmits them into the physical world.
Like the root chakra, the sefirah of Malkut corresponds to the base of the
spine, the feet and the legs, and with the chanted vowel "oo". It also has
do with physical reality and the earth. Etc.

The Tree of Life clearly has a relationship to the Chakra system, as you can
easily correspond the seven levels of the ten sefirot to the seven chakras.
However, I don't know which one preceded which, and anything about their
mutual history and development.

Okay, now I wish I hadn't asked. *shudder* All that eastern mystical
stuff has always given me the screaming heebie-jeebies, sorry.

-km

--
Only cowards fight kids -- unidentified Moscow protestor
the black rose
proud to be owned by a yorkie
http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts