Wheel Building ?

BikeyGuy said:

I'm going to build my own wheels this winter. (First timer)
There are 2 books on wheel building that the online people typically carry.
1. The Bicycle Wheel
2. The Art of Wheel building.
Has anyone read either of these books. Do you have a preference of one book over the other.
Your inputs would be appreciated.
Thanks.

"the Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt is your best choice.
I have built over 700 wheels and worked on many more than that for repair, truing, rim replacement, centering, tension balancing, etc. All of what you need is in there.

Thanks daveornee for the info. Safe cycling.

daveornee said:

"the Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt is your best choice.
I have built over 700 wheels and worked on many more than that for repair, truing, rim replacement, centering, tension balancing, etc. All of what you need is in there.

Dave,

I have had three spokes break on a newly built wheel Mavic Open Pro 32 (rear) inside of a two week period. I noticed that the spokes are 14 gage on the left side, 15 gage on the right (drive) side. It appears to my untrained eye that the lacing pattern is 2 cross. I could be mistaken on that but I only see it crossinfg 2 s, hence my conclusion. Is this normal? I am a heavy rider, and with my history of broken spokes I want the strongest wheel (within my meager budget) that I can get, what do you suggest?

Breliswell said:

Dave,

I have had three spokes break on a newly built wheel Mavic Open Pro 32 (rear) inside of a two week period. I noticed that the spokes are 14 gage on the left side, 15 gage on the right (drive) side. It appears to my untrained eye that the lacing pattern is 2 cross. I could be mistaken on that but I only see it crossinfg 2 s, hence my conclusion. Is this normal? I am a heavy rider, and with my history of broken spokes I want the strongest wheel (within my meager budget) that I can get, what do you suggest?

I would bring it back to the wheel builder and ask him/her to resolve the problem(s).
You might want to read "the Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt yourself. If you don't want to purhcase it, it is often available through your library system.
It isn't normal to break spokes in such a short period of time.
Quality of the build is the first issue, followed by quality of the components used. Stress Relieving, Spoke Alignment, Proper tensioning, and Tension Balancing are all required. It may be that a junior wheel builder at the shop built the wheel and didn't care for the required steps. However, there are more than a few shops where their best isn't good enough.

How heavy are you?

DT Double Butted spokes 14/15 Competition model provide good strength, and very good durability. Three cross lacing on both sides is what I suggest.
Tension on the right side should be 100 kgf on all spokes, with a very small variation amongst all spokes... 5% is great, but 10% variation is acceptable... especially by the rim joint.

daveornee said:

I would bring it back to the wheel builder and ask him/her to resolve the problem(s).
You might want to read "the Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt yourself. If you don't want to purhcase it, it is often available through your library system.
It isn't normal to break spokes in such a short period of time.
Quality of the build is the first issue, followed by quality of the components used. Stress Relieving, Spoke Alignment, Proper tensioning, and Tension Balancing are all required. It may be that a junior wheel builder at the shop built the wheel and didn't care for the required steps. However, there are more than a few shops where their best isn't good enough.

How heavy are you?

DT Double Butted spokes 14/15 Competition model provide good strength, and very good durability. Three cross lacing on both sides is what I suggest.
Tension on the right side should be 100 kgf on all spokes, with a very small variation amongst all spokes... 5% is great, but 10% variation is acceptable... especially by the rim joint.

Great info, but can you explain more about spoke tension? Is 100 kgf always the correct tension for drive-side spokes, or does that vary by the gauge and lacing pattern? And what about the variation % you mention? Is this an "industry standard", and does getting the tension even closer help?

EG, I've got Velomax wheels now. They promote their even spoke tension, and the fact that they analyze and record the tension on every spoke.
Do they use the same 100 kgf on the drive side? And should their spokes show less than 5-10% variation? Thanks.

dhk said:

Great info, but can you explain more about spoke tension? Is 100 kgf always the correct tension for drive-side spokes, or does that vary by the gauge and lacing pattern? And what about the variation % you mention? Is this an "industry standard", and does getting the tension even closer help?

EG, I've got Velomax wheels now. They promote their even spoke tension, and the fact that they analyze and record the tension on every spoke.
Do they use the same 100 kgf on the drive side? And should their spokes show less than 5-10% variation? Thanks.

100 kgf is correct for right side rear of Mavic OpenPro rim.
Most rims have a stated amount from the manufacturer for tension.
Barnett's is one of the 2 Bicycle Mechanic schools, the other being UBI. Barnett's states that 5% is the goal, with 10% being accpetable. Gauge and pattern are independent of the tension as the force at the rim isn't dependent on spoke gauge or pattern. The reading on the tension meter will need to be converted to actual tension because as the spoke cross section becomes thinner the amount of deflection increases for the same force.
If you could accurately measure and resolve better than 5% variation, it couldn't hurt, but I think for practical matters, it wouldn't make much difference.
Yes, Velomax wheels should have less than 5 - 10% variation amongst the spokes on the right side, and amongst the spokes on the left rear (they will be different depending on the dish).

Front spokes should all have the same tension, and with Mavic Open Pro 100 kgf, unless the wheel is dished for disc brakes.

There is some good information on measuring spoke tension, recording results, and converting device readings to actual tension on the Park Tool Repair site at URL:

<http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/tm_1.shtml>

David: Thanks, the parktool page provided great info. I have some more questions though, if you have the time to answer:

Does a wheel built with a "stronger" rim and higher spoke tension generally have a longer life? Do you consider the alloweable spoke tension range of a rim to be an important quality characteristic? The table of rim tension values is interesting, but OPs and my old MA-3 rims aren't listed. I notice the tension specs had the Ksyriums higher than some of the other Mavic rims....is that an indicator of durability of a properly-finished wheelset?

The front wheels are spec'd for lower tension. Understand that they don't have dish, or need to withstand the drive loads of the rear. Does the lower tension in general allow for a better ride/roadholding?

dhk said:

David: Thanks, the parktool page provided great info. I have some more questions though, if you have the time to answer:

Does a wheel built with a "stronger" rim and higher spoke tension generally have a longer life? Do you consider the alloweable spoke tension range of a rim to be an important quality characteristic? The table of rim tension values is interesting, but OPs and my old MA-3 rims aren't listed. I notice the tension specs had the Ksyriums higher than some of the other Mavic rims....is that an indicator of durability of a properly-finished wheelset?

The front wheels are spec'd for lower tension. Understand that they don't have dish, or need to withstand the drive loads of the rear. Does the lower tension in general allow for a better ride/roadholding?

Yes, generally, a stronger rim contributes to longer life.
Higher spoke tension doesn't generally ledad to longer wheel life. There is an optimum tension for each rim. There is a range over which the spokes can operate and not go slack, mostly dependent on the rider's weight and riding conditions. Heavier riders are generally harder on all bicycle components.

Durability is not dependent on spoke tension alone. The number and type of spokes, as well as spoke pattern, rim structures, hub, and build quality all contribute to the durability of a wheel.

Lower tension doesn't help the front wheel provide a better ride or roadholding. A wheel whose spokes become slack while riding is a weak wheel, because slack spokes cannot support the rim. This can be avoided to a large extent by building wheels with tighter spokes. Most front wheels are stiffer than similar rear wheels. Structurally this is because front hub flanges are typically wider than rear hub flanges. Rear hub flange spacing is constrained by industry standard dimensions, such as cassette width, drop out spacing and symmetrical frames. My tandem uses 160 mm rear dropout to help counteract this issue. Current MTB and some Touring bicycle rear wheels use 135 mm rear Over Locknut Dimension to help with this issue. Some rims from Velocity, Ritchey, Wilderness Trail Bike, etc. have the spoke bead offset to help with this issue as well.

Most rear wheels are between 40 and 60% more flexible than similar front wheels. Although it may be the case that stiffer front wheels have been developed intentionally for more stable handling, it is possible that many front wheels are simply overbuilt or many rear wheels are underbuilt. You will note that many low count factory wheels from Mavic, Shimano, Velomax, etc. use fewer spokes in the front wheel than rear.

If you haven't already read "the Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt, I suggest you do so. Most library systems carry the book or can get it for you. There are a lot of myths and much marketing from various manufacturers that don't help properly inform. If you are very interested in this subject, the author, Jobst Brandt, often contributes to the rec.bicycles.tech discussion group.
However, I think that investing in his book and reading will answer most of your questions.

daveornee said:

Yes, generally, a stronger rim contributes to longer life.
Higher spoke tension doesn't generally ledad to longer wheel life. There is an optimum tension for each rim. There is a range over which the spokes can operate and not go slack, mostly dependent on the rider's weight and riding conditions. Heavier riders are generally harder on all bicycle components.

Durability is not dependent on spoke tension alone. The number and type of spokes, as well as spoke pattern, rim structures, hub, and build quality all contribute to the durability of a wheel.

Lower tension doesn't help the front wheel provide a better ride or roadholding. A wheel whose spokes become slack while riding is a weak wheel, because slack spokes cannot support the rim. This can be avoided to a large extent by building wheels with tighter spokes. Most front wheels are stiffer than similar rear wheels. Structurally this is because front hub flanges are typically wider than rear hub flanges. Rear hub flange spacing is constrained by industry standard dimensions, such as cassette width, drop out spacing and symmetrical frames. My tandem uses 160 mm rear dropout to help counteract this issue. Current MTB and some Touring bicycle rear wheels use 135 mm rear Over Locknut Dimension to help with this issue. Some rims from Velocity, Ritchey, Wilderness Trail Bike, etc. have the spoke bead offset to help with this issue as well.

Most rear wheels are between 40 and 60% more flexible than similar front wheels. Although it may be the case that stiffer front wheels have been developed intentionally for more stable handling, it is possible that many front wheels are simply overbuilt or many rear wheels are underbuilt. You will note that many low count factory wheels from Mavic, Shimano, Velomax, etc. use fewer spokes in the front wheel than rear.

If you haven't already read "the Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt, I suggest you do so. Most library systems carry the book or can get it for you. There are a lot of myths and much marketing from various manufacturers that don't help properly inform. If you are very interested in this subject, the author, Jobst Brandt, often contributes to the rec.bicycles.tech discussion group.
However, I think that investing in his book and reading will answer most of your questions.

Thanks again. I have noticed how soft laterally rear wheels are. The few I've checked can be easily pushed side-to-side to contact the brake pads.

Got your suggestion on the Brandt book; I'll check with my library.