Well, yes, this is true. For example, when the U.S. competes against China in the Olympics, the U.S. forwards athletes of many countries. For example, Muhammad Ali was essentially African/Irish. The U.S. fields many Russian or German athletes who are chosen to represent the U.S. The Williams sisters and Sharapova are essentially immigrants too. In the U.K. it is the same, except in running we had Bannister, Coe and Ovett and Cram. But China competes only with Chinese athletes, trained in China. The same goes for science and technolgy. The U.S. space program was borrowed technology from Germany. Computers were invented by the English and adapted by the Americans. Phones, wireless and aviation came from Europe. The U.S. simply purchased the technology from other countries. It borrowed democracy from the Greeks and inherited law from the Romans - all Europeans. 🙂
The Williams sisters were born in the US. That makes them Americans. Muhammad Ali was born in the US. That makes him American.
Aviation came from Europe? The Wright Brothers came from Europe?
I think you may be underestimating / generalising there. It is taking China a little time to come up to speed but, not valuing efficiency or profit, I don't think so. In our industry (Oil & Gas), Chinese companies (including nationalised ones) have been showing themselves to be very astute in the areas of efficiency and profit-return. The move on Unocal was hardly that of an unaware marketplayer.
wilmar13 said:
...I am bringing Tsingtao and Cobra. 😉
Green Bottle Tsingtao is my afternoon drink when the office is in turmoil. It has the odd effect, when imbibed in bright sunshine, of making "just one more" seem like the logical next move.
I have read that all nation-states go through "cycles" (no pun intended) as it were. 1) Nomadic 2) Agrarian 3) Industrial 4) Post-Industrial The "down" side is that there are less manufacturing jobs for the disadvantaged area's & this equates to a shrinking of the middle class. Manufacturing used to be a spring board to elevate low income/disadvantaged people to the middle class. With the advent of outsourcing, this phenomenon is disappearing & the result is a less economically stratified populace resulting in-you guessed it-revolution baby :eek: It is reminiscent of rome in that there will be the upper crust of society enjoying all of the fruits of the less advantaged & the bottom of the rung of society, who shovel the manure of thier motorcades. Nothing in between. This creates a tension that can only be alleviated by-you guessed it... 😉 All kidding aside, The US will not "fall" unless it allows it to happen. It is the clearing house for idea's. So foriegn peoples produce what the US invents. Big deal. The US seems to be a breeding ground for inventor's.
"Right now the only threat they pose is competition for resources and this is not going to change anytime in the near future."
Are you kidding? China is becoming far more open than people over here imagine. So many Chinese people are getting rich now, they have fashion models that would turn many a western head, bars, discos, clubs and culture. Plus the food in China is delicious. There are so many western chains, stores, factories and businesses doing well in China - it's on a real boom. We have a new wave of Chinese students over here filling the universities. There are many Chinese tourists visiting Europe and many have money. I'm so optimistic about China's future I even thought of studying Mandarin and, if I was at school again, I'd definitely learn it.
China just "officially" instituted more barriers to freedom of access to info by its citizenry. They pay software firms to come up w/ programs that hinder searches on the internet. It is still a police state.
Well all I was really trying to say is that China will not develop western standards of living anytime soon. And the things you listed as reasons why they would are rare (even in Shanghais). While the giant is gaining speed at a very fast pace, don't forget how far behind it is starting. Trust me, if Brazil is considered third world, most of China isn't even in the same solar system. Competitiveness in terms of high value added industries and services will take time to develop.
True, China is vast & most of the country is wilderness & or desert (heard of the Gobi 😕 ) Also, China is a net importer of fuel. Carerra must not have heard the gov'ts edict, last month, to conserve energy due to the coming winter month's 🙄 Some factories have shutdown for days at a time due to fuel scarcity. Remember they wanted to buy Unocal. Hell, that was only two months ago.
Quoted post said:
That said, I have no illusion that China may become "the" world power in our lifetime as even if per capita it can never match the west, with well over 1 billion people it can afford some inefficiency. The points you make about the advantages of authoritarian government our interesting... Both Stalin and McCarthy would be proud.
Many of the younger Chinese would disagree w/ carerra, not to mention north Koreans. Being able to afford a refrigerator is not the same as being able to walk down to the corner store & buy a western newspaper that isn't censored or just not there altogether.
...hence Bush's decision to go back to the moon...
I often wondered where he came from. Now I understand why he has such difficulty with the English language - Texas isn't his home State, it's just where he landed. 😄
I often wondered where he came from. Now I understand why he has such difficulty with the English language - Texas isn't his home State, it's just where he landed. 😄
His home state, here on planet Earth, is Connecticut. He is about as Texan as the Prince of Wales..
I think you may be underestimating / generalising there. It is taking China a little time to come up to speed but, not valuing efficiency or profit, I don't think so. In our industry (Oil & Gas), Chinese companies (including nationalised ones) have been showing themselves to be very astute in the areas of efficiency and profit-return. The move on Unocal was hardly that of an unaware marketplayer.
Guilty on both charges. My comment about not valuing efficiency or profitability is more related to their value systems and how it is much different than the west. To a chinese manager 1-2% sustainable annual profit is MUCH better than 20% profit for 3 years, then a bad year, etc. And layoffs are unthinkable, even when totally necessary. They value security and stability. The selfish greed that forms the foundation for capitalism but results in collective good just isn't there in the same way, based on my experiences and converstations with Chinese businessmen. You need everyone (the culture) to be "greedy" in order for the system to benefit everyone and keep those at the top in check. Without that you will end up with a super unequal income distribution as is the case in many developing countries. But this is only my opinion and the goal of creating jobs rather than profit could be limited to my own industry (manufacturing) in China.
EoinC said:
Green Bottle Tsingtao is my afternoon drink when the office is in turmoil. It has the odd effect, when imbibed in bright sunshine, of making "just one more" seem like the logical next move.
Ohhh I want to work in Malaysia if you can drink at the office...even if it is tsingtao. 😄
I know this will be unpopular but I see China's authoritarian stance as an advantage. Over here in the U.K., liberalism has gradually decimated our standard of living, education and armed forces. I'm not saying it's all bad over here, of course, but I do think China is leaving us behind. Since Blair and the Labour Party instituted their liberal agenda, we've seen a loss in manufacturing industry, more people in prison than ever, educational standards dropping and street crime way out of control. Most Americans feel far safer in New York than in London. Don't get me wrong. I believe in liberal values and am all for freedom. But for people to be free to enjoy life you have to have authority, law, respect and some kind of social discipline. There has to be a time in life where people come to understand their particular actions or standards have an impact on others. So, China doesn't have political correctness. Students in Chinese schools are free to learn and study without drugs in schools, gangs roaming around or even (in some cases) teachers being assaulted. I mean, I worked in these sorts of countries as a teacher and I've seen how much more disciplined society is compared with here. There's more respect but people still enjoy themselves and have fun. The Chinese, in fact, drink in bars, go to discos e.t.c. It's not perfect but it's not all so bad either. I think we've become so soft and wishy-washy in Europe that we're actually losing our social advantages in many respects.
davidmc said:
China just "officially" instituted more barriers to freedom of access to info by its citizenry. They pay software firms to come up w/ programs that hinder searches on the internet. It is still a police state.
Japan is another example of this, although it's true maybe the Japanese are a bit too uptight and disciplined. :o And as I said before, I'll bet I could ride my bike in Bejing without having bottles thrown at me or abuse shouted by neanderthal punks in cars. 🙁 In fact. the last Chinese tour proved a big hit with those who took part.
...Since Blair and the Labour Party instituted their liberal agenda, we've seen a loss in manufacturing industry...
You lost that in the 1970's when your engineers, after 100 years of trying, still couldn't work out how to put 2 pieces of metal together without creating an oilpatch on the driveway. 😄
I know this will be unpopular but I see China's authoritarian stance as an advantage. Over here in the U.K., liberalism has gradually decimated our standard of living, education and armed forces. I'm not saying it's all bad over here, of course, but I do think China is leaving us behind. Since Blair and the Labour Party instituted their liberal agenda, we've seen a loss in manufacturing industry, more people in prison than ever, educational standards dropping and street crime way out of control. Most Americans feel far safer in New York than in London. Don't get me wrong. I believe in liberal values and am all for freedom. But for people to be free to enjoy life you have to have authority, law, respect and some kind of social discipline. There has to be a time in life where people come to understand their particular actions or standards have an impact on others. So, China doesn't have political correctness. Students in Chinese schools are free to learn and study without drugs in schools, gangs roaming around or even (in some cases) teachers being assaulted. I mean, I worked in these sorts of countries as a teacher and I've seen how much more disciplined society is compared with here. There's more respect but people still enjoy themselves and have fun. The Chinese, in fact, drink in bars, go to discos e.t.c. It's not perfect but it's not all so bad either. I think we've become so soft and wishy-washy in Europe that we're actually losing our social advantages in many respects.
This phenomenon might have more to do w/ "culture" than "gov't". Remember, you blokes gave "soccer-hooligan's" to the world 🙄
You lost that in the 1970's when your engineers, after 100 years of trying, still couldn't work out how to put 2 pieces of metal together without creating an oilpatch on the driveway. 😄
Was'nt it Thatcher who declared war on the worker's union's & coal miner's 😕
There are two sides to the story. Thatcher badly damaged the cause of working rights and trade unions over here but my personal view is the masses allowed her to do it. People over here simply don't have the same grit as the French. Had Thatcher tried the same tactics in France (strangulation of the unions) there would have been massive worker movement and civil unrest. Again, the kind of mass protest you saw in the Ukraine wouldn't happen over here. The day we witness masses of Brits staying out for 3 days or more in the streets, demanding Blair step down, is the day I'll eat my hat. But in my book the only way to enforce your rights is by being prepared to lose everything to attain that objective. This is why I long ago gave up trying to make a stand over here in this neck of the woods. I find the usual case scenario is all the people I represent cave in at the last minute and leave me to take the consequences. I once took part in a strike at university, though, and amazingly the students didn't back down. They threatened not to allow us to graduate and nobody backed down. So, we won our cause. Even my girlfriend from America was impressed. She described the Brits as "wishy washy" but on that one occasion people actually made a stand and she was surprised. But it amazes me that these days students are willing to go along with state funding for European students in English universities but no rights for U.K. students in Europe - which to me is an insult. No way would I put up with that myself but few people even seem to be aware how Blair is ripping them off and grinning from ear to ear. In the miners strike, some of the miners broke the strike and other working people didn't show solidarity - a fatal mistake to make. The French, on the other hand, stick together and they proved it again when they told Blair to stuff his sweat shop labour (work till 70) Euro constitution he's trying to impose on Europeans. 😠
davidmc said:
Was'nt it Thatcher who declared war on the worker's union's & coal miner's 😕
The other side of the coin, of course, is that during the Labour years we had had so many strikes that the economy was going down the creek. The U.K. had to go cap in hand to Europe to bail our troubled economy out. So, even though Thatcher did very bad damage to the unions and the miners, the economy picked up in later years. So Blair inherited a strong economy from the Tories in a sense. The problem was the unions and workers allowed Thatchers reforms to go too far and basic worker rights suffered badly.
davidmc said:
Was'nt it Thatcher who declared war on the worker's union's & coal miner's 😕
In fact one thing that staggered and astounded me was Blair getting in for a second term. At the time I couldn't believe it. Jose Maria Aznar lied to the Spanish over the terrorist train bombing and diverted the attention to ETA. Aznar basically lied to the electorate. As a result, the Spanish kicked him out of office. It was the lies and manipulation that had angered them. Rightfully, it shouldn't be tolerated. Blair told outright lies over the Iraq war. He swore blind that Saddam Hussein had the intention and capability to launch a missile strike at 45 minutes notice. In reality, Saddam had a few rusty old skuds and managed to launch 4 or 5 at nearby Kuwait. It was a [censored] and bull story from start to finish. Blair lied to the electorate on several occasions. He's lied over unemployment, immigration and other issues. He openly pushed George W Bush into his Iraq war and encouraged it from day one so he could make eloquent speeches overseas and take centre stage. He deserved to be kicked out but, in the end, he was rewarded by the electorate which basically defies credibility.
