Who's Swapping Parts?

[GT Fanatic]

Just bought a brand new 2010 Schwinn Paramount Series 7 on Monday.

So, I decided to take some pics, and upon review, I noticed my seat-post has "Trail Tuned" stamped on it. I thought that was a bit odd, considering it's a road bike.

I reviewed Performance Bike's website and the bike is supposed to have a "Road Tuned" carbon seat-post. I pulled my seat-post, and sure enough, it's alloy. I contacted Performance and told them my bicycle was supposed to include a carbon seat-post. They told me those bikes were never offered with a carbon seat-post. I advised them it said it was to come with one according to their site. I'm still waiting on a call back. I also emailed Schwinn, and I'm waiting for a response from them as well.

Anyway, I was at a different Performance Bicycle than the one I got my bike from, and sure enough, one of their bikes had the same incorrect seat-post as my bicycle.

Normally, I wouldn't care, but carbon fiber seat-posts aren't cheap. IMO, I paid for a carbon seat-post in the price of the bicycle, and I want my bicycle properly equipped according to the online specs. Any suggestions on my next means of action should be if this falls through with Performance and Schwinn?

 

[alienator]

You didn't pay for a carbon fiber seat post. You paid for the bike you bought. Moreover, it's damned likely that Schwinn and/or Performance have a statement somewhere that says they're free to change the component spec or bike spec at their leisure. For your money, you got a functional seat post. The fact that you didn't have any issue until you saw the picture means that your seat post was working just fine, just like a seat post. Carbon fiber seat posts are not special in any way at all, other than they're made of carbon fiber. If you want a CF seat post, grow up and buy one. It's just a seat post.

Oh wait: I forgot that carbon fiber is a magical material. Oooooeeeerrrrrr.

 

[CdnRider]

Go for it. See if you can talk yourself a cf post. But as already stated. Ive often seen that little fine print stating "we can and may substitute parts etc". Worth a shot.

Nothing wrong with trying to get what was advertised......And yes....they aren't cheap!

 

[GT Fanatic]

Go for it. See if you can talk yourself a cf post. But as already stated. Ive often seen that little fine print stating "we can and may substitute parts etc". Worth a shot.

Nothing wrong with trying to get what was advertised......And yes....they aren't cheap!

Anyway, nothing on Performance's website about the specs changing, aside from the fact that free cycling jerseys were included until supplies ran out.

For the sake of argument, let's say that there is a disclaimer. Shouldn't the spec list also be modified from the original to signify accurate componentry?

 

[alienator]

Anyway, nothing on Performance's website about the specs changing, aside from the fact that free cycling jerseys were included until supplies ran out.

For the sake of argument, let's say that there is a disclaimer. Shouldn't the spec list also be modified from the original to signify accurate componentry?

Nope. That's one of the reason's for the disclaimer: so that they don't have to continually update specs in ads to reflect running changes. This is standard operating procedure in manufacturing, especially when the manufacturing includes parts integration, as in the assembly of third party parts on a bike.

 

[GT Fanatic]

Nope. That's one of the reason's for the disclaimer: so that they don't have to continually update specs in ads to reflect running changes. This is standard operating procedure in manufacturing.

Please stay out of my threads. You ruin every thread you participate in. Your posts add absolutely nothing of worth to this thread.

And I don't recall directing the post to you. I'm sure the person whom I was speaking can comment without your help.

Thanks.

 

[alienator]

Please stay out of my threads. You ruin every thread you participate in. Your posts add absolutely nothing of worth to this thread.

And I don't recall directing the post to you. I'm sure the person whom I was speaking can comment without your help.

Thanks.

Sorry: threads are public, and my response was entirely appropriate and accurate. You can choose to not post if you wish, or you can add me to your "ignore" list.

 

[CdnRider]

From my experience. That so called disclaimer gives them a pretty nice window to hide behind. Sure it would have been nice for them to indicate that on their site but they didn't. Like I said. See if you can talk your way into getting them to send you one. Or substitute another post of equal OR higher value. Good luck.

 

[GT Fanatic]

Sorry: threads are public, and my response was entirely appropriate and accurate. You can choose to not post if you wish, or you can add me to your "ignore" list.

Ah, so that's your excuse for following me around from thread to thread to harrass me.

You've just been reported.

 

[GT Fanatic]

From my experience. That so called disclaimer gives them a pretty nice window to hide behind. Sure it would have been nice for them to indicate that on their site but they didn't. Like I said. See if you can talk your way into getting them to send you one. Or substitute another post of equal OR higher value. Good luck.

Oddly enough, one of the cheaper bicycles (Fastback Elite), which included carbon seat-stays and fork also included a carbon seat-post. I saw one at Performance. It makes no sense that a "half-carbon" bike would include a carbon fiber seat-post but a full-carbon bike would not. The specs for the Fastback Elite also mentioned the carbon seat-post, which it did have.

 

[alienator]

Oddly enough, one of the cheaper bicycles (Fastback Elite), which included carbon seat-stays and fork also included a carbon seat-post. I saw one at Performance. It makes no sense that a "half-carbon" bike would include a carbon fiber seat-post but a full-carbon bike would not. The specs for the Fastback Elite also mentioned the carbon seat-post, which it did have.

No, there's no sense to be made of it, as there's no reason for any particular bike, made of any particular material, to have a seat post constructed from any particular material. Material does not say anything about the function of a part. Design, QC, and construction are the important factors. Thomson doesn't make a single CF post, yet their posts are chosen by thousands of riders for said riders' CF bikes. The same is true for many others: 3T, Syntace, PMP, New Ultimate, Selcof, Race Face, USE, Tune, and many others sell lots of alloy posts for CF frames.

Personal preference is an entirely different matter and often doesn't rely at all on performance factors.

Given the requirement with most CF bike components that torque on fasteners be carefully set, it's likely a smart decision on the part of a manufacturer to select certain components, for low to mid-range bikes, to be non-CF so as to allow a greater range of assembly "error" before damage occurs. The history rolls are replete with owners who didn't pay attention to torque when tightening fasteners and ended up breaking/crushing/cracking their CF fork steerer, CF handlebars, CF seat posts, and so on. Also, given the relative shortage and resulting high demand for CF products (military, aerospace, motor racing, boats, bicycles, and etc) and higher costs, there could very well be a cost benefit for the manufacturers to spec certain alloy components over CF components.

 

[GT Fanatic]

No, there's no sense to be made of it, as there's no reason for any particular bike, made of any particular material, to have a seat post constructed from any particular material. Material does not say anything about the function of a part. Design, QC, and construction are the important factors. Thomson doesn't make a single CF post, yet their posts are chosen by thousands of riders for said riders' CF bikes. The same is true for many others: 3T, Syntace, PMP, New Ultimate, Selcof, Race Face, USE, Tune, and many others sell lots of alloy posts for CF frames.

Personal preference is an entirely different matter and often doesn't rely at all on performance factors.

Given the requirement with most CF bike components that torque on fasteners be carefully set, it's likely a smart decision on the part of a manufacturer to select certain components, for low to mid-range bikes, to be non-CF so as to allow a greater range of assembly "error" before damage occurs. The history rolls are replete with owners who didn't pay attention to torque when tightening fasteners and ended up breaking/crushing/cracking their CF fork steerer, CF handlebars, CF seat posts, and so on. Also, given the relative shortage and resulting high demand for CF products (military, aerospace, motor racing, boats, bicycles, and etc) and higher costs, there could very well be a cost benefit for the manufacturers to spec certain alloy components over CF components.

Sorry to take the wind out of your sales, especially after you posted the massive abundance of knowledge you've bestowed upon all of us , but this thread is about how a company is either swapping parts, false advertising, or maybe a little bit of both, and how a buyer can get the bicycle spec'd out to what was supposed to be included in a package, and what was paid for. I couldn't care less about the aerospace industry, because I don't have any plans to buy a space shuttle in the near future.

You can blow as much hot air as you'd like (and by now you could have filled the Hindenburg 10x's over between all the threads you've destroyed...) about how companies can change their specs and this and that, but the fact remains there is no mention of this. The simple fact is I want what I paid for, and whether you care to appreciate it or otherwise, included in the price of that bicycle is a carbon fiber seat-post. I want the parts I paid for. Period. Would you buy a brand new car without power seats with the Monroney Label clearly listing that the vehicle is equipped with power seats? No, you wouldn't. You'd want your power seats.

 

[alienator]

Sorry to take the wind out of your sales, especially after you posted the massive abundance of knowledge you've bestowed upon all of us , but this thread is about how a company is either swapping parts, false advertising, or maybe a little bit of both, and how a buyer can get the bicycle spec'd out to what was supposed to be included in a package, and what was paid for. I couldn't care less about the aerospace industry, because I don't have any plans to buy a space shuttle in the near future.

You can blow as much hot air as you'd like (and by now you could have filled the Hindenburg 10x's over between all the threads you've destroyed...) about how companies can change their specs and this and that, but the fact remains there is no mention of this. The simple fact is I want what I paid for, and whether you care to appreciate it or otherwise, included in the price of that bicycle is a carbon fiber seat-post. I want the parts I paid for. Period. Would you buy a brand new car without power seats with the Monroney Label clearly listing that the vehicle is equipped with power seats? No, you wouldn't. You'd want your power seats.

You got what you paid for: you saw it, with an alloy post; you liked it; and you bought it. Simple. Maybe Performance will be nice and let you switch or make a switch at a small cost, but there's no false advertising. Just you because you can't find a statement so far, doesn't mean there isn't one.

Your speech is evidence that you misread things greatly, all to afford yourself the opportunity to spray more. Again, if you can't answer objectively with clear thought, maybe you ought to withhold the response. After all, I'm sure you don't want to appear as if you can't read very well or can't follow up comments with cogent comments of your own, right? No one wants that.

Alas, as for what I want...when I go buy something, I look at it carefully, study it; I test it if I'm allowed to do so; and I consider whether or not it will meet my needs. What that product looks like in a picture or catalog doesn't matter to me: its real life manifestation does. If I buy something online, I do so with the understanding that the manufacturer may have made a running change. So be it. This happens all the time in the bike industry. I understand you have very little experience in dealing with the bike industry, but changes such as these happen a lot. Don't worry, though, with diligence and patience, you may eventually gain a much better understanding of the bike industry and cycling in general. It's a matter of gaining experience, listening with an open mind, and paying attention, something that humans have to do whenever we engage in something new for which our pool of knowledge is initially shallow.

Oh, BTW, I'm not a salesman, so I've made no sales from which you could remove the wind. I must admit, I've never heard that turn of a phrase with respect to sales.

 

[alienator]

I realize this seat post issue is really upsetting for you, so in the hopes of keeping you from getting all verklempt, I went to the Schwinn Bikes Legal/Privacy page [⇐hotlink] to see if Schwinn had anything to say about their bikes not being equipped as pictured in catalogs. Here's what they said:

Disclaimer

CYCLING SPORTS GROUP MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS ABOUT THE SUITABILITY OF THE CONTENT FOR ANY PURPOSE. ALL CONTENT IS PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY OF ANY KIND. CYCLING SPORTS GROUP HEREBY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES AND CONDITIONS WITH REGARD TO THE CONTENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES, CONDITIONS OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, TITLE, AND NON-INFRINGEMENT. CYCLING SPORTS GROUP DOES NOT WARRANT THE ACCESSIBILITY OF THE SITE OR THE AVAILABILITY OF ANY PRODUCTS DESCRIBED THEREIN. IN NO EVENT SHALL CYCLING SPORTS GROUP BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INDIRECT, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE, COPYING, OR DISPLAY OF THE CONTENT OR THIS SITE, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES RELATING TO LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS, WITHOUT REGARD TO THE FORM OF ANY ACTION, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTIONS.

ALTHOUGH CSG HAS TRIED TO BE AS ACCURATE, COMPLETE, AND CURRENT AS POSSIBLE, CYCLING SPORTS GROUP DOES NOT WARRANT THAT THE CONTENT IS ACCURATE, COMPLETE OR CURRENT. THE CONTENT MAY INCLUDE TECHNICAL INACCURACIES OR TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO VERIFY ANY INFORMATION BEFORE RELYING ON IT.

CYCLING SPORTS GROUP reserves the right to withdraw access to the Site and revise the products, prices, software, materials, and services described in this Web site, at any time without notifying the users.​

Note that the all-capital letter format is Schwinn's, not mine. I've inserted some underlining and red font for clarity.

Now, in the underlined section, note what it says about Schwinn content and technical inaccuracies. This seems to be applicable to that about which you're upset. They go on, as you can read, to say the reader should verify info before relying on it.

In the red section, they address product and material revisions head on.

Now, this legal mumbo jumbo is for the website, but I'm sure that it can be found in their paper catalogs, too. I doubt that Performance Bike can be held liable for changes that Schwinn makes because

• Schwinn specs and puts the bikes together (inasmuch as bikes are put together for shipment to dealers).
• As Performance Bike's supplier, Schwinn has covered their legal bases by making said statements.

Again, you have the opportunity to beg Performance Bike to make a component change for you, and maybe as a customer friendly company, they'll recognize the level of your distress and make said change for free or for some small additional fee; however, it appears that they are not legally bound to do so. I hope this information clarifies the issue for you and helps to relieve any related anxiety that you've accumulated.

 

[gman0482]

I'm afraid Alienator is right. I work in corporate and consumer sales all day, and here's a likely scenario I see here.

"Dear valued customer,

We apologize for any inconvenience this might have caused you, but it appears as though our website development team made an error in displaying the Schwinn ad. Unfortunately your model does not come with the CF seat post, but to show you our appreciation and apology, we will give you a 30% discount on your next purchase from PerformanceBike.

Again, we apologize for any inconvenience, and thank you for your business."

When you checked out your bike before buying it, did it have a CF post ?
If not then this will be tough.

Who knows, they might honor your request and give you the seat post.

Good luck.

 

[GT Fanatic]

You got what you paid for: you saw it, with an alloy post; you liked it; and you bought it. Simple. Maybe Performance will be nice and let you switch or make a switch at a small cost, but there's no false advertising. Just you because you can't find a statement so far, doesn't mean there isn't one.

Your speech is evidence that you misread things greatly, all to afford yourself the opportunity to spray more. Again, if you can't answer objectively with clear thought, maybe you ought to withhold the response. After all, I'm sure you don't want to appear as if you can't read very well or can't follow up comments with cogent comments of your own, right? No one wants that.

Alas, as for what I want...when I go buy something, I look at it carefully, study it; I test it if I'm allowed to do so; and I consider whether or not it will meet my needs. What that product looks like in a picture or catalog doesn't matter to me: its real life manifestation does. If I buy something online, I do so with the understanding that the manufacturer may have made a running change. So be it. This happens all the time in the bike industry. I understand you have very little experience in dealing with the bike industry, but changes such as these happen a lot. Don't worry, though, with diligence and patience, you may eventually gain a much better understanding of the bike industry and cycling in general. It's a matter of gaining experience, listening with an open mind, and paying attention, something that humans have to do whenever we engage in something new for which our pool of knowledge is initially shallow.

Oh, BTW, I'm not a salesman, so I've made no sales from which you could remove the wind. I must admit, I've never heard that turn of a phrase with respect to sales.

OOOPSIE! I MADE A TYPOGRAPHICAL ERROR USING THE INCORRECT USAGE OF "SALES!" That's right, you're perfect! In fact, you just ooze with perfection all over this forum, so it was only natural your perfection would ooze into this thread.

So, let's actually talk about taking wind out of your SALES. What you're trying to sell here is obvious information. Every year changes are made to products, and everyone knows componentry changes from year to year. This isn't anything new.

I realize this seat post issue is really upsetting for you, so in the hopes of keeping you from getting all verklempt, I went to the Schwinn Bikes Legal/Privacy page [⇐hotlink] to see if Schwinn had anything to say about their bikes not being equipped as pictured in catalogs. Here's what they said:

Disclaimer

CYCLING SPORTS GROUP MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS ABOUT THE SUITABILITY OF THE CONTENT FOR ANY PURPOSE. ALL CONTENT IS PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY OF ANY KIND. CYCLING SPORTS GROUP HEREBY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES AND CONDITIONS WITH REGARD TO THE CONTENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES, CONDITIONS OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, TITLE, AND NON-INFRINGEMENT. CYCLING SPORTS GROUP DOES NOT WARRANT THE ACCESSIBILITY OF THE SITE OR THE AVAILABILITY OF ANY PRODUCTS DESCRIBED THEREIN. IN NO EVENT SHALL CYCLING SPORTS GROUP BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INDIRECT, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE, COPYING, OR DISPLAY OF THE CONTENT OR THIS SITE, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES RELATING TO LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS, WITHOUT REGARD TO THE FORM OF ANY ACTION, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTIONS.

ALTHOUGH CSG HAS TRIED TO BE AS ACCURATE, COMPLETE, AND CURRENT AS POSSIBLE, CYCLING SPORTS GROUP DOES NOT WARRANT THAT THE CONTENT IS ACCURATE, COMPLETE OR CURRENT. THE CONTENT MAY INCLUDE TECHNICAL INACCURACIES OR TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO VERIFY ANY INFORMATION BEFORE RELYING ON IT.

CYCLING SPORTS GROUP reserves the right to withdraw access to the Site and revise the products, prices, software, materials, and services described in this Web site, at any time without notifying the users.​

Note that the all-capital letter format is Schwinn's, not mine. I've inserted some underlining and red font for clarity.

Now, in the underlined section, note what it says about Schwinn content and technical inaccuracies. This seems to be applicable to that about which you're upset. They go on, as you can read, to say the reader should verify info before relying on it.

In the red section, they address product and material revisions head on.

Now, this legal mumbo jumbo is for the website, but I'm sure that it can be found in their paper catalogs, too. I doubt that Performance Bike can be held liable for changes that Schwinn makes because

• Schwinn specs and puts the bikes together (inasmuch as bikes are put together for shipment to dealers).
• As Performance Bike's supplier, Schwinn has covered their legal bases by making said statements.

Again, you have the opportunity to beg Performance Bike to make a component change for you, and maybe as a customer friendly company, they'll recognize the level of your distress and make said change for free or for some small additional fee; however, it appears that they are not legally bound to do so. I hope this information clarifies the issue for you and helps to relieve any related anxiety that you've accumulated.

Now, while I appreciate your efforts to go find all of this "legal mumbo jumbo," as you so fondly call it, go find my bicycle on their website. Notice it isn't there, so that raises the question of whether my bicycle is actually subjected to their "legal mumbo jumbo."

My bicycle is a US-Exclusive, and Schwinn's website does not include US-Exclusives on it. Through my understanding, one of this particular bicycle's very few distributors is Performance Bicycle. So, which "DISCLAIMER" is correct; Performance Bicycle's or Schwinn's? With all of your legal knowledge you should be able to answer that question, hence the problem I'm running into...but yeah, thanks...I guess.

 

[GT Fanatic]

I'm afraid Alienator is right. I work in corporate and consumer sales all day, and here's a likely scenario I see here.

"Dear valued customer,

We apologize for any inconvenience this might have caused you, but it appears as though our website development team made an error in displaying the Schwinn ad. Unfortunately your model does not come with the CF seat post, but to show you our appreciation and apology, we will give you a 30% discount on your next purchase from PerformanceBike.

Again, we apologize for any inconvenience, and thank you for your business."

When you checked out your bike before buying it, did it have a CF post ?
If not then this will be tough.

Who knows, they might honor your request and give you the seat post.

Good luck.

I surely hope so. As far as I'm concerned, I shouldn't have to "inspect" something down to the finest detail every time I purchase something. As consumers, we should be able to rest assured that we can view the actual specs for a product and get what's advertised. It takes those legal departments more time to rattle on than it would to just go in and make a change to a website.

 

[gman0482]

As far as I'm concerned, I shouldn't have to "inspect" something down to the finest detail every time I purchase something.

I could agree with you here if we were talking about a new pair of shoes, or something that's a little less expensive. But when it comes to that much $$, I will check out every 1/10th of an inch on that bike. Not only because it's expensive, but because components and fit are so important.

A quick off-the-subject tip: It's often good to get fitted BEFORE you actually pick out a bike, so you (and your LBS) can get the right bike for you, instead of trying to force fit you into one. Ususally done with a Serotta fit cycle.

 

[GT Fanatic]

I could agree with you here if we were talking about a new pair of shoes, or something that's a little less expensive. But when it comes to that much $$, I will check out every 1/10th of an inch on that bike. Not only because it's expensive, but because components and fit are so important.

A quick off-the-subject tip: It's often good to get fitted BEFORE you actually pick out a bike, so you (and your LBS) can get the right bike for you, instead of trying to force fit you into one. Ususally done with a Serotta fit cycle.

Well, I did inspect the bicycle down to every detail regarding if there were any scratches, cracks, or other flaws, but what I didn't count on were wrong parts. That's my own fault, but live and learn, I guess.

I didn't realize this was even supposed to come with a carbon seat-post until I got home and saw that the post said "Trail Tuned" on it. It wasn't until then that something struck me as odd, and then I went to Performance's website where I discovered this. Oddly enough, there are two photos of the bike on Performance's website, and in one pic, the post has a blue stripe on it, which is probably the carbon post, and then the other photo pictures the post I got on the bike.

As for fitment, I didn't need a fitment, as this bike was comfortable right off the get-go. I tested a lot of different bikes and this is the one I wound up the most comfortable with. It was either going to be this one or a Giant Defy 1. I really liked the Giant, but the Paramount was the one that just kept calling me back...

 

[gman0482]

What kind of riding and miles do you do ? If you don't mind me asking.

The reason I ask is because if you're planning on doing some longer miles and/or a faster more intense pace, without the right fit you will be suffering. But let's say you do just some 'around the block' kind of rides just for a couple of minutes, nothing serious, then you wouldn't know or be able to tell if the bike fits.

For example, if someone goes on a vacation and rents out a simple bike just for riding some trails, they will be fine with it and feel 'comfortable' on it. But if you ever in the near future decide to get more into it, I would strongly recommend a pro fit. Trust me.