Who is at fault and how should it be dealt?

[Artoi]

Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
discussion.

Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...

Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.

Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
rammed you from behind?
--

 

[Steven Bornfeld]

Artoi wrote:
> Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> discussion.
>
> Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
>
> Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
> together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
> riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
> farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
> stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
> the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
> warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
> of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.
>
> Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> rammed you from behind?
> --


Hypothetical, of course. I've never seen anyone "fail to heed".

Steve (no waving either)

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]> wrote:

> Artoi wrote:
> > Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> > discussion.
> >
> > Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
> >
> > Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
> > together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
> > riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
> > farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
> > stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
> > the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
> > warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
> > of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.
> >
> > Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> > what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> > rammed you from behind?
> > --

> Hypothetical, of course. I've never seen anyone "fail to heed".

Well, let's just discuss it as a hypothetical...
--

 

[Pete]

Artoi wrote:
> Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> discussion.
>
> Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
>
> Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are
> riding together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another
> cyclist, riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an
> extended farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the
> bunch signals stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an
> almost complete stop. the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the
> signal, and the loud warnings of others behind him, and collides with
> the cyclist at the head of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon
> fiber frame.
>
> Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> rammed you from behind?

You'd have to be doing something really odd there. You aren't likely
to wreck a frame by crashing into it from behind at a slow speed
(wheels maybe, but frame?)- so unless this guy looking behind is
cruising down a hill at 50kph towards a busy roundabout while looking
back (which is really stupid), it doesn't seem likely in the first
place.

That said, if you aren't looking where you're going and you hit
something, you're pretty much automatically at fault, especially if
what you hit is in the right place. So - IMO, guy at the front gets a
new bike (in the same price range, not taking the **** with a 5 grand
colnago) and the guy not looking pays.

Pete

 

[[email protected]]

On Nov 21, 9:30 am, Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
> Artoi wrote:
> > Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> > discussion.
>
> > Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
>
> > Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are
> > riding together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another
> > cyclist, riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an
> > extended farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the
> > bunch signals stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an
> > almost complete stop. the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the
> > signal, and the loud warnings of others behind him, and collides with
> > the cyclist at the head of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon
> > fiber frame.
>
> > Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> > what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> > rammed you from behind?
>
> You'd have to be doing something really odd there. You aren't likely
> to wreck a frame by crashing into it from behind at a slow speed
> (wheels maybe, but frame?)-

a digression, but i've seen exactly that. at a race a rider crossed
the line and stopped abruptly and a rider rammed him from behind
breaking his frame (a giant TCR carbon).

 

[[email protected]]

On Nov 21, 7:39 am, Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:
> Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> discussion.
>
> Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
>
> Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
> together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
> riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
> farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
> stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
> the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
> warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
> of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.
>
> Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> rammed you from behind?

Don't look back. Glance. Real quick.

Because otherwise, you'll run into someone or something-- it's a
setup; nothing ever happens until you have your head turned.

What kind of new frame are you going to get <g>? --D-y

 

[[email protected]]

> If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> what would you be thinking?

I'd be thinking, what was I thinking riding with these f'ing wankers?

 

[William Asher]

[email protected] wrote:

>
>> If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
>> what would you be thinking?
>
> I'd be thinking, what was I thinking riding with these f'ing wankers?

But most people think that even if they don't end up with a wrecked frame.

--
Bill Asher

 

[scotty72]

Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
discussion.

Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...

Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.

Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
rammed you from behind?
--

Just as with the rules for cars, unless there is some extra-ordinary circumstance, the guy behind would be a fault for not maintaining a safe stopping distance.

Scotty

 

[OzCableguy]

"Artoi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> discussion.
>
> Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
>
> Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
> together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
> riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
> farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
> stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
> the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
> warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
> of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.
>
> Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> rammed you from behind?
> --

Hell no. Any official or unoffical bunch ride has to be a case of ride at
your own risk or it loses all of its appeal and is no fun anymore. There's
always a risk of accident, even accidents caused by stupidity, in any type
of performance or bunch ride and if you can't live with that ride solo, buy
a cheaper bike and wear a full suit of armour lined with cotton wool.

Tend to their wounds and assist in getting your fallen comrade's bike up &
running again (or help guard it while someone fetches a vehicle to collect
it) but forget this financial liability nonsense. I think that would be an
appalling thing to happen to the sport.

Perhaps the answer here is insurance. Can you get insurance for this type of
thing?

--
www.ozcableguy.com
www.oztechnologies.com

 

[Duncan]

On Nov 22, 10:19 am, "OzCableguy" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> "Artoi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> > discussion.
>
> > Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
>
> > Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
> > together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
> > riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
> > farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
> > stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
> > the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
> > warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
> > of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.
>
> > Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> > what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> > rammed you from behind?
> > --
>
> Hell no. Any official or unoffical bunch ride has to be a case of ride at
> your own risk or it loses all of its appeal and is no fun anymore. There's
> always a risk of accident, even accidents caused by stupidity, in any type
> of performance or bunch ride and if you can't live with that ride solo, buy
> a cheaper bike and wear a full suit of armour lined with cotton wool.
>
> Tend to their wounds and assist in getting your fallen comrade's bike up &
> running again (or help guard it while someone fetches a vehicle to collect
> it) but forget this financial liability nonsense. I think that would be an
> appalling thing to happen to the sport.

Surely you're joking?

It is fine to live-and-let live for minor accidents. Unfortunately,
not all accidents are so minor, or cause relatively little damage.

> Perhaps the answer here is insurance. Can you get insurance for this type of
> thing?

If you aren't at least third-party insured and you are racing (or
commuting), you're just being naive..

Low cost insurance (such as the standard BNSW membership) covers the
guilty party (in this case, the guy behind) for this sort of thing:

<snip>
POLICY INFORMATION

Insured:
Members of Bicycle New South Wales Incorporated

Scope of Cover:
Members of Bicycle New South Wales legal liability to compensate third
parties with regard to Personal Injury/Death and/or Property Damage as
a result of an occurrence arising from the bicycle riding activities
of the member.

Limit of Liability
$20,000,000 any one occurrence and in the aggregate

Deductible (excess)
$1,000 Each & Every Incident
<snip>

 

[Duncan]

On Nov 22, 11:22 am, SLAVE of THE STATE <[email protected]> wrote:
> There is no way a socially responsible individual can replace the
> carbon frame with another carbon frame. Since everything in the world
> is about global warming, the carbon footprint must reduced at all
> costs. Carbon frame: a no-no. Therefore, I suggest a Ti or Al frame
> replacement. (Steel has carbon in it. Terrible.)

But think of all that carbon that can be sequestered in a frame
build.. never to be made into CO2

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Duncan wrote:
> On Nov 22, 11:22 am, SLAVE of THE STATE <[email protected]> wrote:
>> There is no way a socially responsible individual can replace the
>> carbon frame with another carbon frame. Since everything in the
>> world is about global warming, the carbon footprint must reduced at
>> all costs. Carbon frame: a no-no. Therefore, I suggest a Ti or Al
>> frame replacement. (Steel has carbon in it. Terrible.)
>
> But think of all that carbon that can be sequestered in a frame
> build.. never to be made into CO2

Mmmm, and how much coke is burnt to make steel?

Theo

 

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...

> Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
> together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
> riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
> farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
> stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
> the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
> warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
> of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.

Assuming this is a ride on an ordinary public road, not a closed course,
not an organized event, the rider who failed to stop is very likely at
fault, given the information provided. From the description, he's lucky
he had an accident with the lead cyclist, rather than blindly riding
into traffic in a congested roundabout, adding injuries to his failure
to yield.

At least in the U.S., the negligent rider's homeowner's or renter's
insurance policy probably includes personal liability coverage that
would usually apply to an accident other than a motor vehicle accident.

--
[email protected] is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>

 

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
> There is no way a socially responsible individual can replace the
> carbon frame with another carbon frame. Since everything in the world
> is about global warming, the carbon footprint must reduced at all
> costs. Carbon frame: a no-no. Therefore, I suggest a Ti or Al frame
> replacement. (Steel has carbon in it. Terrible.)
>
>
>
>
>


Yes it does:

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Campus/8262/htdocs/steels/allst1.html

Steve


--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

 

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Nov 21, 4:53 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
<[email protected]> wrote:
> SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
>
> > There is no way a socially responsible individual can replace the
> > carbon frame with another carbon frame. Since everything in the world
> > is about global warming, the carbon footprint must reduced at all
> > costs. Carbon frame: a no-no. Therefore, I suggest a Ti or Al frame
> > replacement. (Steel has carbon in it. Terrible.)
>
> Yes it does:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Campus/8262/htdocs/steels/alls...

But I like Duncan's point. Let's get it sequestered in bike frames.

 

[xzzy]

> At least in the U.S., the negligent rider's homeowner's or renter's
> insurance policy probably includes personal liability coverage that
> would usually apply to an accident other than a motor vehicle accident.
>

any info regrarding this for a negligent rider in Colorado would be helpful

Thank you

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
"OzCableguy" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Artoi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> > discussion.
> >
> > Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
> >
> > Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
> > together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
> > riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
> > farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
> > stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
> > the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
> > warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
> > of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.
> >
> > Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> > what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> > rammed you from behind?
> > --
>
> Hell no. Any official or unoffical bunch ride has to be a case of ride at
> your own risk or it loses all of its appeal and is no fun anymore. There's
> always a risk of accident, even accidents caused by stupidity, in any type
> of performance or bunch ride and if you can't live with that ride solo, buy
> a cheaper bike and wear a full suit of armour lined with cotton wool.
>
> Tend to their wounds and assist in getting your fallen comrade's bike up &
> running again (or help guard it while someone fetches a vehicle to collect
> it) but forget this financial liability nonsense. I think that would be an
> appalling thing to happen to the sport.
>
> Perhaps the answer here is insurance. Can you get insurance for this type of
> thing?

This hypothetical has been worked by other groups too. There has been
two lines of thoughts. One that sticks to the road rules where the one
at the rear was negligent and should be responsible for the damages. The
second considered the club bunch riding aspect and felt that bunch
riders should accept their own responsibility for any injuries or
damages they suffer, irrespective of who or how of the negligence. A
situation similar to participation in a bike race. As the hypothetical
is set on public roads, I am not sure the second group can make such a
claim. Even with a liability waiver required by some clubs and ride
groups, I am not sure it'll stand up in the courts and would be able to
avoid a claim by the first rider on the second.

Insurance is an interesting point. Assume all these club riders have
racing license and associated insurance, it should be a practical way
out (with excess). It was also interesting in some of the discussions
elsewhere that some taking the second view felt that a claim on the
second rider's insurance was not appropriate. They felt the first rider
should just cough up the buck and cover his own damage.
--

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
scotty72 <[email protected]> wrote:

> Artoi Wrote:
> > Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> > discussion.
> >
> > Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
> >
> > Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are
> > riding
> > together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
> > riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
> > farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch
> > signals
> > stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete
> > stop.
> > the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
> > warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the
> > head
> > of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.
> >
> > Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> > what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> > rammed you from behind?

> Just as with the rules for cars, unless there is some extra-ordinary
> circumstance, the guy behind would be a fault for not maintaining a safe
> stopping distance.

With your experience, would the fact that this was a voluntary club
bunch ride affect your view? Some argue that bunch rides are inherently
dangerous and everyone should be responsible for their own
participation, even if it was not your fault.
--

 

[Artoi]

In article
<ab1e0bc2-735b-451a-a061-48ea1506608e@c30g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> > what would you be thinking?
>
> I'd be thinking, what was I thinking riding with these f'ing wankers?

That doesn't solve your immediate problem of a wrecked frame.
--