Wheelsucker Evans

fscyclist said:

Look, just admit you're an Evans fan. It's okay. We'll help you through it.

BTW, why do you keep comparing him to Leipheimer? Do you think I like him or something?

Landis, despite his faults, was not a wheelsucker, and his breakaway ride was one of the ballsiest moves in recent Tour memory. He still looked like hell when he rode, as do all MTBers.

hang on, you say one ride justifies a career?

When did Landis attack otherwise?

Come on, an attack in Liege and Lombardia trumps Landis.

thunder said:

hang on, you say one ride justifies a career?

When did Landis attack otherwise?

Come on, an attack in Liege and Lombardia trumps Landis.

When did I justify Landis' brief career? I just stated he had one of the ballsiest moves in recent memory.

There is a difference between attacking and wheelsucking, and they aren't exclusionary. For instance, Evans will suck someone's wheel for 200K then attack them in the last 20 meters. So I guess you are correct in stating he has launched attacks...but he's still a wheelsucker. Landis did not attack frequently but he also wasn't a wheelsucker.

Evans is a wheelsucker, but Brunyeel had the biggest wheelsucking moment in Tour history. Both riders have attacked on rare occasion. Both of them are undeniable tools.

fscyclist said:

CF, if attacking in the mountains isn't good strategy, then name a Tour winner in the last 25 years that sucked wheels and won. Look at the first two places in the last Tour, Ras and Contador, the most aggresive riders, with the possible exception of Soler. The ONLY person in recent memory who won without much attacking was Indurain, but he was always in control of the race, and never sucked wheels. He was also subtle, and would attack without people realizing it. One thing Indurain NEVER did was suck wheel. The difference is Indurain was true class, while Evans belongs in a sport like synchronized swimming.

What makes someone a wheel sucker is never taking their turn on the front, and dorks like Evans are the ultimate tools because they suck wheel the whole race then sprint at the finish - clearly showing they still had plenty of energy to give. Face it, Evans is a tool. I hope he never wins a race.

Also, there's a lot of talk about podium finishes. Cycling is all or nothing. Either you win or you don't. I can name all the Tour winners for the last 25 years, but don't give a rat's ass about who finished second.

It still sounds like envy is behind your dislike of Evans because you sure don't have any good arguments to support your claims and so resort to insults (such as "Evans is a tool" ). He won the Pro Tour last year and was 2nd in the TDF. Live with it. Don't let envy eat away at you. it's not healthy.

Funny how you guys make wheelsucking out to be a character floor and make personal derogatroy remarks about people who do it.
You ride to win by saving as much energy as possible until it's needed and if you don't have the energy you suck wheel or get dropped.
It's not a character floor, it's a method.
I sucked wheel two weeks ago and flew around the pack with 600ms to go for 2nd place. It was that or finish near the tail. In the next race I made a break away and nobody followed, I ran out of steam and ended up near the tail. The method for me to do well in races is clear until I improve...can I improve? Probably....but winning sometimes takes priority....even finishing 2nd is better than nothing.
No prizes for attacking and losing.

fscyclist said:

When did I justify Landis' brief career? I just stated he had one of the ballsiest moves in recent memory.

There is a difference between attacking and wheelsucking, and they aren't exclusionary. For instance, Evans will suck someone's wheel for 200K then attack them in the last 20 meters. So I guess you are correct in stating he has launched attacks...but he's still a wheelsucker. Landis did not attack frequently but he also wasn't a wheelsucker.

Evans is a wheelsucker, but Brunyeel had the biggest wheelsucking moment in Tour history. Both riders have attacked on rare occasion. Both of them are undeniable tools.

Wasn't Flandis Lance's domestique mostly?... His job was to let Lance wheelsuck him. And that doped up ballsy move in Stage 17 2006 was do or die for him. He had nothing to lose, so I don't know how it could be classified as ballsy. If it didn't come off, he probably would finish 10th instead of 6th at a guess. He either attempted it, or finished off the podium.

biker jk said:

It still sounds like envy is behind your dislike of Evans because you sure don't have any good arguments to support your claims and so resort to insults (such as "Evans is a tool" ). He won the Pro Tour last year and was 2nd in the TDF. Live with it. Don't let envy eat away at you. it's not healthy.

Envy? Why would I be envious? I didn't race the ProTour last year.
BTW...what race (besides his local evening crit series) did Cadel win last year?

Crankyfeet said:

Wasn't Flandis Lance's domestique mostly?... His job was to let Lance wheelsuck him. And that doped up ballsy move in Stage 17 2006 was do or die for him. He had nothing to lose, so I don't know how it could be classified as ballsy. If it didn't come off, he probably would finish 10th instead of 6th at a guess. He either attempted it, or finished off the podium.

If it didn't take balls then why don't all the other riders sitting in 6th place try it?

fscyclist said:

If it didn't take balls then why don't all the other riders sitting in 6th place try it?

Sastre did last year.

JAPANic said:

Funny how you guys make wheelsucking out to be a character floor and make personal derogatroy remarks about people who do it.
You ride to win by saving as much energy as possible until it's needed and if you don't have the energy you suck wheel or get dropped.
It's not a character floor, it's a method.
I sucked wheel two weeks ago and flew around the pack with 600ms to go for 2nd place. It was that or finish near the tail. In the next race I made a break away and nobody followed, I ran out of steam and ended up near the tail. The method for me to do well in races is clear until I improve...can I improve? Probably....but winning sometimes takes priority....even finishing 2nd is better than nothing.
No prizes for attacking and losing.

Agreed. But fans aren't as interested in smart tactics as they are interested in seeing bold moves and ballsy attempts at winning a race that vindicate their own masculinity. Wheelsuckers are viewed as parasites.

You wheelsuck as much as you can. The quickest way to the finish line is to draft all the way until the last 150m or so. If its not cheating and it's despised so much... then change the rules. The strategy is to make others work for you. Every wheelsucker needs someone at the front to take the wind. No one's forcing them to do it.

fscyclist said:

If it didn't take balls then why don't all the other riders sitting in 6th place try it?

Actually I stand corrected... it took lots of testosterone... 🙄

JAPANic said:

Funny how you guys make wheelsucking out to be a character floor and make personal derogatroy remarks about people who do it.
You ride to win by saving as much energy as possible until it's needed and if you don't have the energy you suck wheel or get dropped.
It's not a character floor, it's a method.
I sucked wheel two weeks ago and flew around the pack with 600ms to go for 2nd place. It was that or finish near the tail. In the next race I made a break away and nobody followed, I ran out of steam and ended up near the tail. The method for me to do well in races is clear until I improve...can I improve? Probably....but winning sometimes takes priority....even finishing 2nd is better than nothing.
No prizes for attacking and losing.

There is a big difference between the pro races and the local races though. Yes, if you are the only one in the breakaway group, the chances are very high that it will fail; better to go back into the peloton if nobody follows you. But usually, there will be a few riders in the breakaway group. The etiquette is to share the work between the riders in the group. Unless you have domestiques working for you, it is shady to wheelsuck without doing your share of the work, and then attack at the last moment. If you make a habit of doing that, chances are that the peloton will not cooperate with you in future races...

Crankyfeet said:

Agreed. But fans aren't as interested in smart tactics as they are interested in seeing bold moves and ballsy attempts at winning a race that vindicate their own masculinity. Wheelsuckers are viewed as parasites.

You wheelsuck as much as you can. The quickest way to the finish line is to draft all the way until the last 150m or so. If its not cheating and it's despised so much... then change the rules. The strategy is to make others work for you. Every wheelsucker needs someone at the front to take the wind. No one's forcing them to do it.

It is a question of etiquette though. There are many things like this in society which is not written into rules or laws; but not following the etiquette will earn you a bad rep... Not saying that the cat 5 races are like that though.

TheDarkLord said:

There is a big difference between the pro races and the local races though. Yes, if you are the only one in the breakaway group, the chances are very high that it will fail; better to go back into the peloton if nobody follows you. But usually, there will be a few riders in the breakaway group. The etiquette is to share the work between the riders in the group. Unless you have domestiques working for you, it is shady to wheelsuck without doing your share of the work, and then attack at the last moment. If you make a habit of doing that, chances are that the peloton will not cooperate with you in future races...

That situation has got nothing to do with Cadel Evans.

Crankyfeet said:

That situation has got nothing to do with Cadel Evans.

I haven't watched him race other than the last TdF, but I thought that was what fscyclist was implying that Cadel was famous for.

thunder said:

Sastre did last year.

Copycatter.

TheDarkLord said:

I haven't watched him race other than the last TdF, but I thought that was what fscyclist was implying that Cadel was famous for.

Drafting is not the big deal on climbs (although it's not worthless) AFAIK. It's more the pacing... that usually the domestiques do until the last portion of the race when they catapault their leader to finish it off. Often the same guy will take the lead position of the front group on a climb for miles on end (reference Rubiera in Stage 3 of this year's ToC). There is no way one person is going to do that for miles on end at 25-30 mph on the flats.

Cadel is mostly scorned AFAIK, for not attacking on climbs... just sitting in and being satisfied with holding on until he knows how much he has left in the tank near the end. It has been shown though that when he is the strongest rider, in lesser races than the TdF... he is willing to attack. At the TdF as a GC contender, he has never been interested in blowing himself up in one stage for a stage victory... nor has he been the strongest climber in the field.

The guy is probably not the most attacking and risk taking character in the peloton, but given his abilities and lack of support from team mates, I don't know of any better strategy he could have performed which would have got him into first place last year. Anyone here (who knows how his legs felt) like to venture when he should have launched a successful attack in last year's TdF which would have gained him enough seconds on Contador (or Rass) and not stuffed his legs for the next day's stage or for an upcoming TT?

Crankyfeet said:

Agreed. But fans aren't as interested in smart tactics as they are interested in seeing bold moves and ballsy attempts at winning a race that vindicate their own masculinity. Wheelsuckers are viewed as parasites.

You wheelsuck as much as you can. The quickest way to the finish line is to draft all the way until the last 150m or so. If its not cheating and it's despised so much... then change the rules. The strategy is to make others work for you. Every wheelsucker needs someone at the front to take the wind. No one's forcing them to do it.

There is a difference between drafting and strategically timing moves/break and wheelsucking. McEwen sitting in the pack and waiting for the sprint is strategic. Brunyeel drafting off Indurain for 60K without taking a single pull and sprinting by him in the last 10m is wheelsucking. As a tactic, wheelsucking may get you 1-2 wins, but after that, you will be marked and you will be told to leave the breakaway or forced out, which isn't always pretty.

fscyclist said:

There is a difference between drafting and strategically timing moves/break and wheelsucking. McEwen sitting in the pack and waiting for the sprint is strategic. Brunyeel drafting off Indurain for 60K without taking a single pull and sprinting by him in the last 10m is wheelsucking. As a tactic, wheelsucking may get you 1-2 wins, but after that, you will be marked and you will be told to leave the breakaway or forced out, which isn't always pretty.

I kinda disagree there. I know where you're coming from. But it is usually in a break's interest for the wind to be shared, and yes it is etiquette for the wind to be shared as equally as possible, though a rider that is nearly stuffed is sometimes forgiven for staying at the back of a rotating echelon until he has something in his legs.

But if Indurain dragged Bruyneel for 60km, then he knew exactly what he was doing (I never saw the race). And he realised his vulnerability, but probably needed to keep the pace up in any case. Bruyneel was just gifted a free ride. You can make someone go to the front you know if you slow down enough.

Cycling occasionally presents these Indurain/Bruyneel scenarios though they are rare. I'm struggling to see where this applies to Cadel though.

Crankyfeet said:

I kinda disagree there. I know where you're coming from. But it is usually in a break's interest for the wind to be shared, and yes it is etiquette for the wind to be shared as equally as possible, though a rider that is nearly stuffed is sometimes forgiven for staying at the back of a rotating echelon until he has something in his legs.

But if Indurain dragged Bruyneel for 60km, then he knew exactly what he was doing (I never saw the race). And he realised his vulnerability, but probably needed to keep the pace up in any case. Bruyneel was just gifted a free ride. You can make someone go to the front you know if you slow down enough.

Cycling occasionally presents these Indurain/Bruyneel scenarios though they are rare. I'm struggling to see where this applies to Cadel though.

Yes, if you are stuffed and can't take a pull but can sit on, then the break may allow this. Sometimes they don't, but you aren't expected to contest the sprint with a sudden burst of energy.

The Indurain/Brunyeel stage is interesting. I wonder if there was a deal going on behind the scenes. Either way, Brunyeel will be known for that incident more than anything else as a racer.

You can't always make a rider go to the front by slowing down. For an example see last year's Tour mtn stages. The leader would pull off trying to make Cadel pull through but he would refuse. He would slow to a crawl and do anything to avoid being on the front. But he seemed to have plenty of energy in the final mt top sprint. Like I asked earlier, name another Tour WINNER in the last 25 years who raced like this. Heck, name any noteworthy racer that raced this way.

fscyclist said:

Yes, if you are stuffed and can't take a pull but can sit on, then the break may allow this. Sometimes they don't, but you aren't expected to contest the sprint with a sudden burst of energy.

The Indurain/Brunyeel stage is interesting. I wonder if there was a deal going on behind the scenes. Either way, Brunyeel will be known for that incident more than anything else as a racer.

You can't always make a rider go to the front by slowing down. For an example see last year's Tour mtn stages. The leader would pull off trying to make Cadel pull through but he would refuse. He would slow to a crawl and do anything to avoid being on the front. But he seemed to have plenty of energy in the final mt top sprint. Like I asked earlier, name another Tour WINNER in the last 25 years who raced like this. Heck, name any noteworthy racer that raced this way.

How many TDF winners over the past decade weren't drug assisted? Why should Cadel attack drug fueled riders like Contador (among a host of others) and blow himself up? He's not stupid. As stated by others, he attacks when he's not up against drug cheats like Contador.