Wenting!!!

eb <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

<snip>

I think everyone is missing the point of cycling lanes. It's not about
security blankets or anything like it but it is about keeping bikes out
of traffic lanes because they seriously erode capacity.

I'm sure lots of people will want to argue and yes if 15% of people were
commuting on bikes then it would be less of an issue. But through lane
capacity is calculated from a 2s headway at whatever the speed limit is.
While most of us hit higher speeds downhill very few of us can maintain
60 km/h on the flat for any length of time. That is the lowest speed
for an arterial road. Mixing bikes/cars etc will reduce capacity, hence
the cycle lane. Intersections are somewhat different but the same still
applies.

I agree that cycle lanes are next to useless on surburban roads and
really shouldn't be placed on them due to the parked vehicle issue
(centre cycle lanes are another option rarely used here).

If you are regularly having problems with a section of bike lane on
certain roads then TELL SOMEONE (council or the SRA). Believe it or not
we keep this stuff and when we are doing work in an area we will go back
over the file to see if there are specific issues. If enough people
raise an issue then we will usually cary out a safety audit to see if
anything can be done (cheaply).

So probably nothing will change in the short term but maybe there is a
simple solution (removal of on street parking or allowing cyclists to
use a footpath and putting in facilities to encourage it). If you get
really lucky there will be someone who wanted to remove the parking
anyway and you just gave them the excuse.

It is generally very hard to get any feedback from users and it does
help if you know what works and what doesn't.

Cheers
BrettM

BrettM said:

But
through lane capacity is calculated from a 2s headway at whatever the
speed limit is.

Err, 2s headway is 30 vehicles per lane per minute _regardless_ of whatever
the speed limit is. Many years ago they increased the Freeway speed limit in
Perth from 80 to 100 so they "could get more cars on it". Even my mother,
who was 75 at the time, could see that that was [censored].

Theo

Jolly said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I reckon you're nuts riding Logan Rd :-) I commute from Mansfield: up
Creek Rd, onto Logan (the worst bit of the ride) then down Nursery and
onto the bike path ASAP. I agree that the bike path is pretty ordinary,
but it sure beats greasing the cars on Logan Rd! (just get to dodge
pedestrians instead).

Joel

I reckon you're right. I am totally, completely nuts. I ride past the
freeway onramp each time and I nearly die. I blog it each time and it
makes me smile. I'd rather live than die... but I'd rather ride than
worry about it!

I tried the bike path a bit, but had several near-death experiences and
further out my way it's lots of road crossing. I use the bikeway from
Buranda Busway stn to UQ. I'm thinking of trying the back way but
haven't gotten around to it yet.

Like Absent Husband, I head in early and home early (or late/late) to
avoid the worst of the traffic. The one time I rode home in peak hour I
had no problems though, because the traffic slows down so it is easier
to merge. Also the well spaced parked cars in the left lane ensure that
the left lane is pretty much clear except for a few key areas, so I only
need to change lanes around parked cars every km or so.

Tam

PS If they [censored] me off, I hunt them down and give them some pleasant
driver education. Seriously. I discuss with them safer methods of
driving and why cyclists ride in the middle of the lane, etc.

Jolly said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

If it's past about 7pm I'll ride home along Logan Rd, mainly because the
lighting is better. The bike path is damn hard to see in parts,
especially where the freeway lights are in your eyes but the path is in
the shadow. I've nearly turned into a tree (no, not growing leaves on my
arms) a few times now.

<snip>

It's lovely along there at night, isn't it? Such a well designed path...
I also like the dark bits through the tunnels near the storm water
channels.

Tam

SteveA said:

Tamyka Bell Wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Grey St, Sth Bne? It has enough lanes that you can afford to take one
up, given that there's extra lanes where the turns/roundabouts etc are.
However I avoid Grey St except when it's really early (before 0600) -
I'd rather ride at 20km/h through Southbank, dealing with veering
pedestrians, than deal with the weirdo rich people on Grey St.

Tam

Rich people on Grey St? Holy [censored]!!! I grew up around there and there
weren't no stinking rich people there then!!! And if you wanted weird,
that was provided by the old winos and derelects who inhabited the
area.

The homeless people are up the far end near the bridge. Then you go
through industrial areas. Then you hit the lastest yuppie precinct, Grey
St and Little Stanley St, full of cafe's, art shops, bike shops,
restaurants, expensive cars...

Tam

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Me to, if it wasn't for the fact that I work in Grey St. and thus don't
have much choice, one way or the other I have to go down Grey St. Also,
I'm still figuring out how to get down to South Bank from the bridge
that I can't remember what's called... Not enough bridges up here but
still too many for me to remember, what does that tell you? ;O)

-Rasmus

William Jolly Br, aka Grey St bridge? nope, you're stuck on Grey st, but
turn off at the cultural centre and go through the forecourt and along
the front at southbank if you work up that end.

Victoria Br, aka Melbourne St br? go on the pedestrian bit and there's
paths down from either side through SB. On the down river side, the path
goes down to the cultural forecourt and you can ride through, then down
onto the riverfront path. On the other side there's a big spiral ramp
down onto the boardwalk or, if you turn right, you're on the southbank
river front.

Did I help?

Absent Husband said:

Hi Jolly,

Depends when you're riding in... I commute from Mt Gravatt East - up
Creek Rd (from behind the "Freedom Fuels" servo), then right onto Logan
Rd. I don't jump onto the bike paths until Stone's Corner.

But I'll only do that if I leave home well before 7am (generally about
6:30-6:45) - otherwise the traffic does get nasty.

Come on - live life on the edge!! Just join us, join us, join us......

Absent Husband (when do you commute in?? We could link up one morning??)

Logan rd isn't *too* bad...much better than using the bikepath anyway I reckon. I've done it quite a few times from Logan to the City and back. Like Tam says the freeway on ramps are probably the worst spots along with any uphills where there isn't much room. In peak hour you can travel a lot faster than the traffic. It's a good workout - you definately know you're alive anyway! 🙂

Adam

Jolly said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I live in behind Mt Gravatt East State School, so not that far away.

I normally leave about 7:30-8:00. Haven't ridden this week due to knee
concerns, but got go ahead from physio today along with a regime of
corrective action.

If it's past about 7pm I'll ride home along Logan Rd, mainly because the
lighting is better. The bike path is damn hard to see in parts,
especially where the freeway lights are in your eyes but the path is in
the shadow. I've nearly turned into a tree (no, not growing leaves on my
arms) a few times now.

Give me a bit more training and I might see about joining in. You
wouldn't want to be seen with a guy on a [censored] hybrid, would you? :-)

Joel

Hey dude,

I gotta test my MTB out this week, given I'm racing it on the weekend,
so I'll probably ride that in tomorrow morning, if you're interested?
I'll be really slow though, I haven't been on it for about six months
and it'll feel very... big... not roadie etc.

I'll probably head home this arvo by about 1630 so text or call on 0400
782 972.

Absent Husband, if you're riding in tomorrow, bring along a [censored] old
mtb, it'll be fun!

Tam

Tamyka Bell said:

Did I help?

Well kind of, after yesterdays posts I had another look on my way home
and figured what you have just now confirmed, that you CAN actually get
up from South Bank, so I might just do that tomorrow, not riding today.
While we're at it, does anyone know how far you can follow the river on
this side without getting involved in too much traffic? Normally I go
along the bikepath on the Western Freeway but was hoping that there was
a slightly more scenic route than that.

Thanks for the help Tamyka, it's greatly appreciated... I'll send you
guys a wave as pass you in the other direction in the morning... If I'm
not late as usual.

-Rasmus

Yeah right - and ruin my one chance of actually being able to keep
up!?!?!?

AH

Absent Husband said:

Yeah right - and ruin my one chance of actually being able to keep
up!?!?!?

AH

You had no trouble this morning! Granted, at one stage I think I nearly
fell off my bike asleep...

:P

Tam

nebakke said:

Tamyka Bell said:

Did I help?

Well kind of, after yesterdays posts I had another look on my way home
and figured what you have just now confirmed, that you CAN actually get
up from South Bank, so I might just do that tomorrow, not riding today.
While we're at it, does anyone know how far you can follow the river on
this side without getting involved in too much traffic? Normally I go
along the bikepath on the Western Freeway but was hoping that there was
a slightly more scenic route than that.

Thanks for the help Tamyka, it's greatly appreciated... I'll send you
guys a wave as pass you in the other direction in the morning... If I'm
not late as usual.

-Rasmus

I guess it depends on where you want to get to. Do you mean northside or
southside? You can follow around the uni out to Indooroopilly, quick
duck across some roads and it's quiet out through Fig Tree Pocket etc,
if you meant northside, which I'm guessing by the Western Fwy comment.

However, if you're looking at training it's a nice little ride through
Long Pocket from uni but with a dead end. Also the river ride if you
don't mind "switching sides" (of the river that is).

Tam

"Theo Bekkers" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

BrettM said:

But
through lane capacity is calculated from a 2s headway at whatever the
speed limit is.

Err, 2s headway is 30 vehicles per lane per minute _regardless_ of
whatever the speed limit is. Many years ago they increased the Freeway
speed limit in Perth from 80 to 100 so they "could get more cars on
it". Even my mother, who was 75 at the time, could see that that was
[censored].

Theo

Yep you picked it - who ever drafted that press release was spreading
the manure. We reduce the speed to increase capacity.

And yes 2s = 30vpm or 1800 vph. But 2s headway also equals 33m
separation at 60, 44 at 80 etc. So the length of road occupied reduces
with with speed while the time taken to transit a length increases.
Generally the 1800 vph is the limit for duplication but at lower speeds
we will allow the lane volume increase to 2200 (due to bunching).

This is free flow conditions and the problem with conflicting lower
speed vehicles increase with congestion. Simply put every time someone
applies the brakes to avoid a bike/bus/cane farmer that ripples through
the traffic queue. That erodes lane capacity because the headway gap
varies throughout the queue. Once it starts happening in congested
conditions then it will oscillate through the queue until you get the
next intersection (which can be used to break patterns like that).

Cheers

BrettM

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "BrettM" == BrettM <[email hidden]> writes:

BrettM> eb <[email hidden]> wrote in
BrettM> news:[email hidden]:

BrettM> <snip>

BrettM> I think everyone is missing the point of cycling lanes.
BrettM> It's not about security blankets or anything like it but it
BrettM> is about keeping bikes out of traffic lanes because they
BrettM> seriously erode capacity.

And endangers cyclists as a result. All bow down before the mighty
motor car.

Take St. Kilda Road for example. The safest place to cycle on that road
would be where the delimiting line for the cycle lane and the nearside
``car'' lane is. Can't do that though because that bloody line is there
which ``informs'' motorists that cyclists must stay in it. The
consequence is that motorists hug that line.

Cycling inside the delimiting line puts you right in the door zone.
What excellent engineering. Without that bike lane there'd still be
capacity for cyclists and two lanes of traffic so what the hell's it all
for?
--
Cheers
Euan

On Wed, 25 May 2005, eb wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Take St. Kilda Road for example. The safest place to cycle on that road
would be where the delimiting line for the cycle lane and the nearside
``car'' lane is. Can't do that though because that bloody line is there
which ``informs'' motorists that cyclists must stay in it. The
consequence is that motorists hug that line.

Cycling inside the delimiting line puts you right in the door zone.
What excellent engineering. Without that bike lane there'd still be
capacity for cyclists and two lanes of traffic so what the hell's it all
for?
--
Cheers
Euan

This morning a very friendly person in a big car tried to follow me into
the bike lane. It was an interesting experience. He/she/it was also trying
to tickle my back wheel. I gave them a big wave as they drove off tooting
their horn with joy, when they eventually agreed that their lane was
ending.

http://blindrapture.blogspot.com/2005/05/another-great-morning.html

I got to smile and wave at so many friendly horn-tooting drivers today
that Absent Husband worried my arm would be fatigued.

Tam

Tamyka Bell said:

On Wed, 25 May 2005, eb wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Take St. Kilda Road for example. The safest place to cycle on that road
would be where the delimiting line for the cycle lane and the nearside
``car'' lane is. Can't do that though because that bloody line is there
which ``informs'' motorists that cyclists must stay in it. The
consequence is that motorists hug that line.

Cycling inside the delimiting line puts you right in the door zone.
What excellent engineering. Without that bike lane there'd still be
capacity for cyclists and two lanes of traffic so what the hell's it all
for?
--
Cheers
Euan

The only good thing about St Kilda Road could be said to be the Belgian Beer Cafe, in all other respects it stinks, traffic lights out of synch and short cycled, bike lane a disaster, parked cars, parking cars, odd pooch off leash , kamikazi taxis, express delivery vans stopping anywhere, construction trucks, driving everywhere, at all speeds and as close to you as they they can, oh yeah , and pedestrians just needing to run across between parked cars to get to the tram stop..OH ... Trams...them things wot got long bike traps just where you want to turn....If you're heading south go over to Middle Park and join the Beach Road, at least you have drivers skilled at mowing you down, its more predictable, and there arent any bike lanes to hassle you....much better!

Tamyka Bell said:

Jolly wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I live in behind Mt Gravatt East State School, so not that far away.

I normally leave about 7:30-8:00. Haven't ridden this week due to knee
concerns, but got go ahead from physio today along with a regime of
corrective action.

If it's past about 7pm I'll ride home along Logan Rd, mainly because the
lighting is better. The bike path is damn hard to see in parts,
especially where the freeway lights are in your eyes but the path is in
the shadow. I've nearly turned into a tree (no, not growing leaves on my
arms) a few times now.

Give me a bit more training and I might see about joining in. You
wouldn't want to be seen with a guy on a [censored] hybrid, would you? :-)

Joel

Hey dude,

I gotta test my MTB out this week, given I'm racing it on the weekend,
so I'll probably ride that in tomorrow morning, if you're interested?
I'll be really slow though, I haven't been on it for about six months
and it'll feel very... big... not roadie etc.

I'll probably head home this arvo by about 1630 so text or call on 0400
782 972.

Absent Husband, if you're riding in tomorrow, bring along a [censored] old
mtb, it'll be fun!

Tam

Hey Tam,

Just got home, so might not be heading in early. Was at the footy (go
QLD) :-)

Thanks for the offer. I'll keep it in mind.

Joel

This does indeed sound like a job for my shotty and I.

Oh.. and what do you yell?? I busted my mum saying "For helvedet!!! Kraft idiot! Hvor fanden er det du koer?" the other day. It was quite amusing.

Tamyka Bell said:

I guess it depends on where you want to get to. Do you mean northside or
southside? You can follow around the uni out to Indooroopilly, quick
duck across some roads and it's quiet out through Fig Tree Pocket etc,
if you meant northside, which I'm guessing by the Western Fwy comment.

Well west-ish I guess, I live in Springfield but until I'm in better
shape I'm driving into Jindalee or Fig Tree Pocket Rd. (depending on my
mood that particular day) and then riding the rest of the way from
there but even if it's a bit longer as I was saying, I was kind of
hoping that there was a slightly more scenic route than the bike path
along the motorway. From looking at Brisbane City Council's homepage it
looks like the only real way to go, if I follow the riverwalk till the
end, is along some relatively big roads from St. Lucia to
Indooroopilly, if that right?

Thanks again for the advide.

-Rasmus

LOL sounds like a spiel very similar to mine.. The thing about Danish,
if you haven't noticed, is that we don't really have any swear words
that are quite as "powerful" as most of the English one... But by
memory it ended up something like.
"HEY! Se dig for din stodder, hvad fanden har du gang i!!???!?!?!"
Followed by "nu må du KRAFTEDEME styre dig, skide
firhjulstrækkere!!!" whent he bloody 4WD pulled in to park in the
bikelane ;O)

The thing about Danish is that what our swear words lack in power we
more than make up for in the sound of the language, people always think
you're even more angry than you really are ;O)

I must admit, I end up in some ranting spiels sometimes though, people
must think I'm slightly mad sometimes, sitting on my bike swearing to
myself in Danish ;O) But that's the downside to riding with cleats, you
can't just swing the foot out and kick their bumper or something in the
passing... Which I guess is actually good, probably saves a lot of
trouble.

-Rasmus, who ripped the valve out of the tube this morning as he was
filling air in before the ride to work, and who is currently rather
p****d off with himself over it...