Weekly Observations

you know? said:

I submit that on or about Sat, 17 Sep 2005 18:01:06 GMT, the person
known to the court as "Sock Puppet" <[email hidden]>
made a statement (<[email hidden]> in Your
Honour's bundle) to the following effect:

Quoted message said:

This week, in over 600 miles of driving my fossil fueled, toxin spewing,
steel cage scud of death (all work related) I saw a total of 2 people
riding
bicycles. Both sightings occurred after dusk, but neither bicycle had a
front light or red rear reflector (as required by law).

Incredible, isn't it, how reliably drivers see unlit cyclists? Maybe
that's one reason why there is no real evidence showing that lights
make any difference to safety: unlit cyclists are not actually
invisible after all.

Despite what Katz thinks, most motor vehicle operators really do not want to
run cyclists over.

In the two cases I mentioned, there would have been a good chance of a
collision in both instances if the cyclists were truly invisible. And of
course, it never truly gets dark in many areas due to street lighting.

--
Sock Puppet

Bill Henry said:

Just zis Guy said:

Incredible, isn't it, how reliably drivers see unlit cyclists? Maybe
that's one reason why there is no real evidence showing that lights
make any difference to safety: unlit cyclists are not actually
invisible after all.

Among cyclists who are hit by cars, I wonder how many are riding
illegally (against traffic, not coming to a complete stop, riding on the
sidewalk, etc.) I don't think there is enough rider education to let
people know how to safely ride a bike in traffic.

If one looks at the data in this article by K. Gross
<http://www.johnforester.com/Articles/Safety/Cross01.htm> it becomes
apparent that the general trend is that accidents where the cyclist is at
fault mostly occur with younger cyclists, while in accidents involving older
cyclists the motorist if often at fault. This should not surprise anyone,
since in the US bicycles are view as toys for children (who are usually not
taught how to ride properly).

I don't have the cite at hand, but another study indicated that regular
adult commuter cyclists have serious accidents at about 1% of the rate of
children (per mile traveled), which should also not surprise anyone
considering the general difference in experience, judgment and behavior.

--
Sock Puppet

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Quoted message said:

Bill Henry said:

Just zis Guy said:

Incredible, isn't it, how reliably drivers see unlit cyclists? Maybe
that's one reason why there is no real evidence showing that lights
make any difference to safety: unlit cyclists are not actually
invisible after all.

Among cyclists who are hit by cars, I wonder how many are riding
illegally (against traffic, not coming to a complete stop, riding on the
sidewalk, etc.) I don't think there is enough rider education to let
people know how to safely ride a bike in traffic.

That's definitely true, but any education program would
have to include the critically important point that
most of the experienced adult cyclists who get hit by
cars are riding lawfully and predictably when they are
hit. Among kids and beginners, who make up the bulk of
bike accident victims, it's a different story. These
riders are most often at legal fault in their collisions;
they ride out in front of cars who have the legal right
of way.

In Zoot Katz World, the motorists are a priori at fault since they are not
riding bicycles instead.

--
Sock Puppet

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Bob the Cow said:

This explains the behavior I often
see on the freeway -- a crowd of cars coming down the ramp bumper-to-bumper
talking on cellphones, expecting drivers already on the freeway to move over
and make room. The concept of "merging" has been completely lost somewhere,
in similar fashion to the loss of the concept of cyclists as vehicles.

I think traffic behavior and general driving behavior vary from city to
city and region to region. In my experience, though, there seems to be
idiots everywhere.

Hiya Sock Puppet!
You must try driving in more bike-intense areas to see more cyclists
trying not to be seen. I rode past two without headlights in the space
of fifteen minutes when I cycled to work last Friday. It's kind of
scary to suddenly realize there's nothing between you and the opposite
end of the little bridge in the Rose Canyon Bike Path except two
swiftly rotating pedal reflectors!

Sock Puppet wrote:
Stuff I'm snipping, see original post for details.

Robert Leone [email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Just zis Guy said:

I submit that on or about Sat, 17 Sep 2005 18:01:06 GMT, the person
known to the court as "Sock Puppet" <[email hidden]>
made a statement (<[email hidden]> in Your
Honour's bundle) to the following effect:

Quoted message said:

This week, in over 600 miles of driving my fossil fueled, toxin spewing,
steel cage scud of death (all work related) I saw a total of 2 people riding
bicycles. Both sightings occurred after dusk, but neither bicycle had a
front light or red rear reflector (as required by law).

Incredible, isn't it, how reliably drivers see unlit cyclists? Maybe
that's one reason why there is no real evidence showing that lights
make any difference to safety: unlit cyclists are not actually
invisible after all.

Over here lights are compulsory as well as reflectors. You still see
a lot of unlit cyclists, especially in big cities. In fact, the
cyclists who get hit always seem to be the ones with lights and
reflective clothing! The usual excuse is "Sorry, mate, I didn't see
you" - popularly abbreviated to SMIDSY, which has become the term for
collisions of the looked-but-did-not-see variety.

I spend a fortune on lights, I'd love to find some good solid evidence
that this actually increases my safety. Anyone who knows of some, do
please let me know.

No can do. My night riding strategy is black bicycle, dark
clothes, no lights, no reflectors; stay out of their way.
It works for me. I do not recommend it.

--
Michael Press

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Zoot Katz said:

Sat, 17 Sep 2005 21:20:57 +0100,
<[email hidden]>, "Just zis Guy, you

know? said:

Incredible, isn't it, how reliably drivers see unlit cyclists? Maybe
that's one reason why there is no real evidence showing that lights
make any difference to safety: unlit cyclists are not actually
invisible after all.

I think it also has to do with the way unlit bicyclists conduct
themselves. For the most part they're riding slower and doing weird
stuff like using sidewalks or making other evasive maneuvers.

For the rider who is experienced riding at night without
lights, there is no pretense of being seen, and therefore
no dependence on being seen.

I ride that way.

--
Michael Press

Sat, 17 Sep 2005 18:08:35 -0500,
<[email hidden]>, "Bob the Cow" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The concept of "merging" has been completely lost somewhere,
in similar fashion to the loss of the concept of cyclists as vehicles.

The bridge approaches here have signs telling driver to alternate and
most of them do just don't hesitate or the scud behind will nail you.
And then the bridge gets really slow, fuses shorten, and the bikes
just keep on rolling.
--
zk

Sun, 18 Sep 2005 05:00:42 GMT,
<[email hidden]>, "Sock Puppet"

Quoted message said:

In Zoot Katz World, the motorists are a priori at fault since they are not
riding bicycles instead.

yep

Act stupid on a bike and you can get injured. Act stupid in a car and
other people can get injured. It's a risk that is taken too freely
because the consequences for cagers' deadly stupidity is minimal.

Traffic collisions are predictable.
They happen every minute of every day all over the world.

It's by your choice of transport that others get hurt.
--
zk

Sun, 18 Sep 2005 04:36:30 GMT,
<[email hidden]>, "Sock Puppet"

Quoted message said:

Despite what Katz thinks, most motor vehicle operators really do not want to
run cyclists over.

You've not been paying attention. Scud slobs don't know where they are
lots of the time. They don't see bikes because they aren't looking for
bikes. It they do see one, they aren't trained to judge the speed of
the smaller size object. They often assume it's approaching slower
than it is. "I didn't see you", is thrown up as an excuse/apology
after they clobber you. But it's their admission of guilt.

Because it's predictable I don't believe "accident" is the correct
word for a collision. The possibility for you to kill or maim a more
vulnerable road user every time you strap into the scud.
Our auto-addicted society tolerates that carnage as a matter of
convenience and sells its horror as entertainment.

I'm a firm believer that a driver isn't going to attack you on your
ride tomorrow for some sneaky bike stunt I pulled two weeks ago. I
challenge the vengeful homicidal driver myth whenever I see it
regurgitated.

Road rage and aggressive driving are problems of varying degrees
depending on societies tolerance for it. Bicyclists, bikers, roadies,
POB, cyclists, scorchers, wheelmen, low-riders, tourists, randoneurs,
cruisers, bike jockeys, choppers, couriers, racers, whatever, are all
uniformly soft targets for any random caged cowardly doped flipper.

Or you could go trolling for one.
--
zk

Michael Press said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This week, in over 600 miles of driving my fossil fueled, toxin spewing,
steel cage scud of death (all work related) I saw a total of 2 people riding
bicycles. Both sightings occurred after dusk, but neither bicycle had a
front light or red rear reflector (as required by law).

What irks me is the number of people that ride bicycles
AGAINST TRAFFIC at night without front or back lights.
I have had a couple of these stealth riders come out of
nowwhere on me and damned near send me to the grave
when I have been tootling along on my recumbent with
full lighting front and back.

Also, during the day, a certain contingent, mostly beautiful
young asian women from the nearby community college ALWAYS
ride their bikes AGAINST traffic and act like I am doing something
wrong by riding my bike on the RIGHT side of the street. Pisses
me off. Argh!

Don Boring
Glendora, CA USA
"There is something wrong with a society that
drives a car to work out in a gym."

Bill Nye

Zoot Katz said:

This is the first year Vancouver is participating in the International
Car-Free Day, Sept.22nd. That should be a sight!

I have to admit I've never heard of this, presumably because there's no
local media coverage. Dern good idea, though. Can you give me any
details?

Bill

-------------------------------------------------------
| Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, |
| has no invention; it is all memory. |
| --Ralph Waldo Emerson |
-------------------------------------------------------

Michael Press said:

...My night riding strategy is black bicycle, dark
clothes, no lights, no reflectors; stay out of their way.
It works for me. I do not recommend it.

There is a certain freedom in that 'style' that is hard
to explain to those who are dedicated to the notion that
being visible to others is the most important thing.

Robert

Sun, 18 Sep 2005 16:13:02 +0000 (UTC),

Quoted post said:

Zoot Katz said:

This is the first year Vancouver is participating in the International
Car-Free Day, Sept.22nd. That should be a sight!

I have to admit I've never heard of this, presumably because there's no
local media coverage. Dern good idea, though. Can you give me any
details?

http://www.worldcarfree.net/wcfd/events.php
--
zk

Zoot Katz said:

Sat, 17 Sep 2005 18:01:06 GMT,
<[email hidden]>, nobody, the "Suck Puppet"

Quoted message said:

This week, in over 600 miles of driving my fossil fueled, toxin spewing,
steel cage scud of death (all work related) I saw a total of 2 people
riding
bicycles. Both sightings occurred after dusk, but neither bicycle had a
front light or red rear reflector (as required by law). One cyclist had a
full plastic shopping bag in one hand (another violation of vehicle code
in
the jurisdiction) while the other went through a 4-way stop without
slowing
down (of course, a violation).

How many didn't you see, asswipe?

Gee, I am supposed to report on all the cyclists I didn't see - how logical.

The roads I drive are typical of US suburbia. When traffic is light, most
cars and trucks move in the 50-70 mph range, which means they close rather
rapidly on even a fast cyclist. Heavier traffic stacks up at controlled
intersections, but still generally exceeds 50 mph between intersections
(controlled intersections are often 1/2-mile or more apart). The outer lanes
are generally only 12 feet wide, and there is a curb (and no parking). Due
to the subdivision layout, the only streets in a grid pattern are the widely
spaced major arterials, so there are no alternate, low traffic routes for
cyclists (unless one rides a MTB across private property and carries it over
fences).

These conditions discourage commuter cycling, since the chance of getting
run over from behind is much greater than it would be in more civilized
areas such as the urban downtown. Most of the people WITH bicycles I see are
pedestrians, waiting to walk their bikes across the crosswalk once the light
changes, or riding on the sidewalk (where available, which is less than 1/3
of the roads), which is not a way to average a reasonable commuting speed.

--
Sock Puppet

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Don Boring said:

What irks me is the number of people that ride bicycles
AGAINST TRAFFIC at night without front or back lights.
I have had a couple of these stealth riders come out of
nowwhere on me and damned near send me to the grave
when I have been tootling along on my recumbent with
full lighting front and back.

Wrong way cyclists are particularly irksome when one is riding a bicycle. Do
you go to the left* - then the wrong way cyclist is blocking your escape
route if a motor vehicle squeezes you? Do you go to your right and hope the
wrong way cyclist moves far enough over to leave you room to avoid riding
through the debris in the gutter (or not forcing you into the curb)? Do you
slow down to the minimum speed that you can balance to avoid a head on
collision until the wrong way cyclist passes?

Quoted message said:

Also, during the day, a certain contingent, mostly beautiful
young asian women from the nearby community college ALWAYS
ride their bikes AGAINST traffic and act like I am doing something
wrong by riding my bike on the RIGHT side of the street. Pisses
me off. Argh!

College students are notoriously stupid in their behavior. Riding a bicycle
is hazardous in a campus area due to the predilection of students to run out
into the street without looking or to cross on the "Don't Walk" light even
when they see you.

In certain countries, cyclists are supposed to ride on the sidewalks or
against traffic. No effort is made to educate them in proper vehicular
cycling behavior.

*Reverse handedness for Japan and Commonwealth nations that drive/cycle on
the left.

--
Sock Puppet

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Michael Press said:

No can do. My night riding strategy is black bicycle, dark
clothes, no lights, no reflectors; stay out of their way.
It works for me. I do not recommend it.

Expect to be found at fault if you are ever in a collision with a properly
lighted vehicle.

--
Sock Puppet

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Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:31:01 GMT,
<[email hidden]>, "Sock Puppet"

Quoted message said:

These conditions discourage commuter cycling, since the chance of getting
run over from behind is much greater than it would be in more civilized
areas such as the urban downtown.

How much greater? You got studies, statistics or anything other than
your fearful guessing to back it up?

The opportunities for conflicting crossing moves (left cross, right
hook, pull outs from parking and driveways) are greater in the
downtown core and they're the most frequent types of collisions.
--
zk

Don Boring said:

Also, during the day, a certain contingent, mostly beautiful
young asian women from the nearby community college ALWAYS
ride their bikes AGAINST traffic and act like I am doing something
wrong by riding my bike on the RIGHT side of the street. Pisses
me off. Argh!

Here in Arizona the bike lanes have helpful arrows pointing the
correct direction. I suppose otherwise there are those who'd think
they should ride against traffic, upside down (at which time the
international cyclist symbol would be correctly oriented for them).

But in general - college students are among the most dangerous
"cyclists" out there... I'm not sure if it's ingnorance, stupidity or
"individualism", but an awful lot of 'em will ride on the wrong side
for no apparent reason. I suppose it's actually a good thing, as
they'll likely help purify the gene pool by doing so. ;-)

More and more I see collge students riding wrong-way WHILE talking on
a cell phone. I see massive SUVs in their future.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Marlene Blanshay said:

Speaking of which, has anyone seen the ad for Passat, where the roadie
is out on a ride at night on a dark country road? Of course, i don't
know many roadies who would ride on a dark country road at night. But it
was to make a point about the passat and its lights, etc. All for effect.

I've seen it. It's pretty good.

Life is Good!
Jeff