US 'Cross National Champions



In article <[email protected]>,
Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote:

> Since I was on a history kick I updated my page of US Cyclocross
> National Champions. Every one is listed, even the Masters fatties.
> The USCF reached a new high, awarding 29 jerseys this year, up
> from 7 only 10 years ago.
>
> http://www.cvccbike.com/ten_years/us_cross.html
>
> Bob Schwartz

Did they just run the senior men between '78 and '85?

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> writes:

> Since I was on a history kick I updated my page of US Cyclocross
> National Champions. Every one is listed, even the Masters fatties.
> The USCF reached a new high, awarding 29 jerseys this year, up
> from 7 only 10 years ago.
>
> http://www.cvccbike.com/ten_years/us_cross.html
>

Nice work Bob

--
http://costofwar.com/index.html - Merry Christmas
-
Wars of aggression are the most barbarous of all human endeavors and
are, more often than not, the instruments of insane tyrants who hear
voices. Wars are also waged by warlike gambling leaders who bet their
citizens' houses to fulfill their megalomaniac dreams of grandeur.
 
Howard Kveck wrote:
>
> Did they just run the senior men between '78 and '85?

That's what it looks like. My guess is that they ran
everyone together and scored categories separately.

Is Lawrence Malone still showing up to 'cross races?
I'm just going by what is in the book. He'd know the
details.

Bob Schwartz
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote:

> Howard Kveck wrote:
> >
> > Did they just run the senior men between '78 and '85?
>
> That's what it looks like. My guess is that they ran
> everyone together and scored categories separately.
>
> Is Lawrence Malone still showing up to 'cross races?
> I'm just going by what is in the book. He'd know the
> details.

I was remembering him racing at Hellyer Velodrome a while back, but that was
Larry Nolan. Malone was one of the strong guys to come out of the Northern
California scene of the '70s (with an emphasis on the Palo Alto area): Jonathan
Boyer, Freddy Markham, George Mount, Tom Ritchey, Kent Bostick, Dave Perry, Greg
Lemond (to name a few). I have a friend who raced with all those guys and probably
knows how to get in touch with Malone, so I'll ask him.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
Bob Schwartz wrote:
> Since I was on a history kick I updated my page of US Cyclocross
> National Champions. Every one is listed, even the Masters fatties.
> The USCF reached a new high, awarding 29 jerseys this year, up
> from 7 only 10 years ago.




Dumbass -


They should just go all the way and award all the finishers a jersey.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.
rbr Masters Fattie National Champion
 
Bob Schwartz wrote:
> Since I was on a history kick I updated my page of US Cyclocross
> National Champions. Every one is listed, even the Masters fatties.
> The USCF reached a new high, awarding 29 jerseys this year, up
> from 7 only 10 years ago.
>
> http://www.cvccbike.com/ten_years/us_cross.html

I see that this web site says:
"The Amateur Bicycle League of America was the forerunner of the USCF.
The ABLA crowned the first US National Champion in 1963. At the time the
governing body of US cycling was a volunteer organization run out of a
one room office in New York City. This event ran annually until 1969
when it was discontinued and forgotten."

There is a serious question of whether those were actual national
championships inasmuch as they were not recognized as such in either the
racing rules or bylaws of ABLA. Some promoters call their events
"championships" on their own.

For example, "Team Time Trial World Championships" have been held in the
Chicago area for a number of years. They might as well call them
"Galactic Championships."

The web site continues:
"When the event resumed in 1975 it was thought to be the first ever US
championship event in this discipline. In 1990 the earlier races were
finally recognized through the efforts of Nestor Evancevich."

How were they recognized? Not by USCF. Listings of those alleged
championships have never appeared in the backs of the rule books.

-Les Earnest
 
On 24 Dec 2006 20:04:13 -0800, "Kurgan Gringioni"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Bob Schwartz wrote:
>> Since I was on a history kick I updated my page of US Cyclocross
>> National Champions. Every one is listed, even the Masters fatties.
>> The USCF reached a new high, awarding 29 jerseys this year, up
>> from 7 only 10 years ago.
>
>
>
>
>Dumbass -
>
>
>They should just go all the way and award all the finishers a jersey.

Dumbass.

What about all starters?

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
 
Les Earnest wrote:
> Bob Schwartz wrote:
>> Since I was on a history kick I updated my page of US Cyclocross
>> National Champions. Every one is listed, even the Masters fatties.
>> The USCF reached a new high, awarding 29 jerseys this year, up
>> from 7 only 10 years ago.
>>
>> http://www.cvccbike.com/ten_years/us_cross.html
>
> I see that this web site says:
> "The Amateur Bicycle League of America was the forerunner of the USCF.
> The ABLA crowned the first US National Champion in 1963. At the time the
> governing body of US cycling was a volunteer organization run out of a
> one room office in New York City. This event ran annually until 1969
> when it was discontinued and forgotten."
>
> There is a serious question of whether those were actual national
> championships inasmuch as they were not recognized as such in either the
> racing rules or bylaws of ABLA. Some promoters call their events
> "championships" on their own.
>
> For example, "Team Time Trial World Championships" have been held in the
> Chicago area for a number of years. They might as well call them
> "Galactic Championships."
>
> The web site continues:
> "When the event resumed in 1975 it was thought to be the first ever US
> championship event in this discipline. In 1990 the earlier races were
> finally recognized through the efforts of Nestor Evancevich."
>
> How were they recognized? Not by USCF. Listings of those alleged
> championships have never appeared in the backs of the rule books.

They were recognized in 1990, and appeared in the 1991 rule book.
The rule book listings only went 10 years back so that is the
only one where they were listed.

The TTT World Championships are a different animal. The UCI lost
claim to the title when they dropped the event. That is what
allows the people in Illinois to run their event.

Bob Schwartz
 
In article <[email protected]>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 24 Dec 2006 20:04:13 -0800, "Kurgan Gringioni"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Bob Schwartz wrote:
> >> Since I was on a history kick I updated my page of US Cyclocross
> >> National Champions. Every one is listed, even the Masters fatties.
> >> The USCF reached a new high, awarding 29 jerseys this year, up
> >> from 7 only 10 years ago.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Dumbass -
> >
> >
> >They should just go all the way and award all the finishers a jersey.
>
> Dumbass.
>
> What about all starters?

Dumbass: even 10k events require you to finish before you get your
finisher's medal.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
 
Bob Schwartz wrote:
> Les Earnest wrote:
>
>> Bob Schwartz wrote:
>>
>>> Since I was on a history kick I updated my page of US Cyclocross
>>> National Champions. Every one is listed, even the Masters fatties.
>>> The USCF reached a new high, awarding 29 jerseys this year, up
>>> from 7 only 10 years ago.
>>>
>>> http://www.cvccbike.com/ten_years/us_cross.html
>>
>>
>> I see that this web site says:
>> "The Amateur Bicycle League of America was the forerunner of the USCF.
>> The ABLA crowned the first US National Champion in 1963. At the time
>> the governing body of US cycling was a volunteer organization run out
>> of a one room office in New York City. This event ran annually until
>> 1969 when it was discontinued and forgotten."
>>
>> There is a serious question of whether those were actual national
>> championships inasmuch as they were not recognized as such in either
>> the racing rules or bylaws of ABLA. Some promoters call their events
>> "championships" on their own.
>>
>> For example, "Team Time Trial World Championships" have been held in
>> the Chicago area for a number of years. They might as well call them
>> "Galactic Championships."
>>
>> The web site continues:
>> "When the event resumed in 1975 it was thought to be the first ever US
>> championship event in this discipline. In 1990 the earlier races were
>> finally recognized through the efforts of Nestor Evancevich."
>>
>> How were they recognized? Not by USCF. Listings of those alleged
>> championships have never appeared in the backs of the rule books.
>
> They were recognized in 1990, and appeared in the 1991 rule book.
> The rule book listings only went 10 years back so that is the
> only one where they were listed.
>
> The TTT World Championships are a different animal. The UCI lost
> claim to the title when they dropped the event. That is what
> allows the people in Illinois to run their event.
>
> Bob Schwartz

Actually the "Cyclocross National Championships" from the 1960s were
listed in the 1991 Rule Book by mistake -- nobody had checked their
legitimacy. I did the research in 1991 and got them removed. The staff
decision to go to 10 year listings in subsequent years provided a good
cover for that mistake.

That conclusion was based on a USCF rule adopted in 1984 recognizing
that "Only championships organized by the Federation may use the term
`championship' in their race title." That term had been much abused
earlier. For example, so-called "Far West Track Championships" were held
for many years at the Encino Velodrome even though they had no
legitimacy as championships.

Regarding the "TTT World Championships" in Illinois, it was not
necessary to wait until the UCI stopped holding them as long as their
races were organized outside of the UCI/USA Cycling race permit system.
Of course, there might be other "TTT World Championships" in Ulan Bator
or Timbuktu.

-Les Earnest
 
Les Earnest wrote:
> Actually the "Cyclocross National Championships" from the 1960s were
> listed in the 1991 Rule Book by mistake -- nobody had checked their
> legitimacy. I did the research in 1991 and got them removed. The staff
> decision to go to 10 year listings in subsequent years provided a good
> cover for that mistake.
>
> That conclusion was based on a USCF rule adopted in 1984 recognizing
> that "Only championships organized by the Federation may use the term
> `championship' in their race title." That term had been much abused
> earlier. For example, so-called "Far West Track Championships" were held
> for many years at the Encino Velodrome even though they had no
> legitimacy as championships.

Maybe they were just humoring you. One of the things I got from
Tyger was a copy of the program from the 1993 'Cross Nationals
and the stuff from the 1960s is listed.

If you check the race program at:
http://www.cvccbike.com/ten_years/johnson.jpg
the event was sanctioned by the ABLA.

> Regarding the "TTT World Championships" in Illinois, it was not
> necessary to wait until the UCI stopped holding them as long as their
> races were organized outside of the UCI/USA Cycling race permit system.
> Of course, there might be other "TTT World Championships" in Ulan Bator
> or Timbuktu.

I don't believe that is true since there is ownership of the
title. For example, I used to run the Winter Olympics in
Albertville, WI. When I submitted my first permit application
I was told that the USOC owned the word 'Olympics' and I
couldn't use it. Since I wasn't too concerned about
legitimacy as an Olympic event I changed the word 'Olympic'
to 'Games' on anything I submitted to the Fed and ran them
anyways.

But I was given the definite impression that I couldn't slap
the word 'Olympic' on something and not expect a call from a
lawyer.

Bob Schwartz
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Bob Schwartz wrote:
> > Since I was on a history kick I updated my page of US Cyclocross
> > National Champions. Every one is listed, even the Masters fatties.
> > The USCF reached a new high, awarding 29 jerseys this year, up
> > from 7 only 10 years ago.
>
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> They should just go all the way and award all the finishers a jersey.

Sort of like Time Magazine's "Person of the Year" - 'You." Makes it seem rather
like the Special Olympics, where everyone gets a medal.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 24 Dec 2006 20:04:13 -0800, "Kurgan Gringioni"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Bob Schwartz wrote:
> >> Since I was on a history kick I updated my page of US Cyclocross
> >> National Champions. Every one is listed, even the Masters fatties.
> >> The USCF reached a new high, awarding 29 jerseys this year, up
> >> from 7 only 10 years ago.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Dumbass -
> >
> >
> >They should just go all the way and award all the finishers a jersey.
>
> Dumbass.
>
> What about all starters?




Dumbass -


That is a fine idea!


thanks,

K. Gringioni.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote:

> Les Earnest wrote:
> > Actually the "Cyclocross National Championships" from the 1960s were
> > listed in the 1991 Rule Book by mistake -- nobody had checked their
> > legitimacy. I did the research in 1991 and got them removed. The staff
> > decision to go to 10 year listings in subsequent years provided a good
> > cover for that mistake.
> >
> > That conclusion was based on a USCF rule adopted in 1984 recognizing
> > that "Only championships organized by the Federation may use the term
> > `championship' in their race title." That term had been much abused
> > earlier. For example, so-called "Far West Track Championships" were held
> > for many years at the Encino Velodrome even though they had no
> > legitimacy as championships.
>
> Maybe they were just humoring you. One of the things I got from
> Tyger was a copy of the program from the 1993 'Cross Nationals
> and the stuff from the 1960s is listed.
>
> If you check the race program at:
> http://www.cvccbike.com/ten_years/johnson.jpg
> the event was sanctioned by the ABLA.
>
> > Regarding the "TTT World Championships" in Illinois, it was not
> > necessary to wait until the UCI stopped holding them as long as their
> > races were organized outside of the UCI/USA Cycling race permit system.
> > Of course, there might be other "TTT World Championships" in Ulan Bator
> > or Timbuktu.
>
> I don't believe that is true since there is ownership of the
> title. For example, I used to run the Winter Olympics in
> Albertville, WI. When I submitted my first permit application
> I was told that the USOC owned the word 'Olympics' and I
> couldn't use it. Since I wasn't too concerned about
> legitimacy as an Olympic event I changed the word 'Olympic'
> to 'Games' on anything I submitted to the Fed and ran them
> anyways.
>
> But I was given the definite impression that I couldn't slap
> the word 'Olympic' on something and not expect a call from a
> lawyer.

The IOC and its associated national organizations and Games committees
are quite enthusiastic about their ownership of the "Olympic" trademark
and associated marks (five-ring logo, heaven knows what else).

Locally, this has included (in the run-up to the 2010 Winter Olympics)
trying to get a long-established pizzeria to change its name (Olympic
Pizza, natch).

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060224.woly-trademar
k24/BNStory/

But you can have our World Tuesday Night Championships when you pry them
from our cold, dead hands.

http://www.escapevelocity.bc.ca/wtnc.html

There's a line on that page that says "we couldn't use Tuesday Night
World Championships due to UCI issues," but I think that's just a joke.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
 
Bob Schwartz wrote:
> Les Earnest wrote:
>
>> Actually the "Cyclocross National Championships" from the 1960s were
>> listed in the 1991 Rule Book by mistake -- nobody had checked their
>> legitimacy. I did the research in 1991 and got them removed. The staff
>> decision to go to 10 year listings in subsequent years provided a good
>> cover for that mistake.
>>
>> That conclusion was based on a USCF rule adopted in 1984 recognizing
>> that "Only championships organized by the Federation may use the term
>> `championship' in their race title." That term had been much abused
>> earlier. For example, so-called "Far West Track Championships" were
>> held for many years at the Encino Velodrome even though they had no
>> legitimacy as championships.
>
>
> Maybe they were just humoring you. One of the things I got from
> Tyger was a copy of the program from the 1993 'Cross Nationals
> and the stuff from the 1960s is listed.
>
> If you check the race program at:
> http://www.cvccbike.com/ten_years/johnson.jpg
> the event was sanctioned by the ABLA.

The term "sanctioned" then was the same as "issued a race permit" now
and was required for any race held under ABLA. However inasmuch as that
event was not organized by ABLA it was not a national championship even
though they called it that. Notice, among other things, that the cover
of the racing program that you point out carries the logo of the Century
Road Club of America, not ABLA.

>> Regarding the "TTT World Championships" in Illinois, it was not
>> necessary to wait until the UCI stopped holding them as long as their
>> races were organized outside of the UCI/USA Cycling race permit
>> system. Of course, there might be other "TTT World Championships" in
>> Ulan Bator or Timbuktu.
>
> I don't believe that is true since there is ownership of the
> title. For example, I used to run the Winter Olympics in
> Albertville, WI. When I submitted my first permit application
> I was told that the USOC owned the word 'Olympics' and I
> couldn't use it. Since I wasn't too concerned about
> legitimacy as an Olympic event I changed the word 'Olympic'
> to 'Games' on anything I submitted to the Fed and ran them
> anyways.
>
> But I was given the definite impression that I couldn't slap
> the word 'Olympic' on something and not expect a call from a
> lawyer.
>
> Bob Schwartz

Correct, but the USOC owns the word "Olympic" because of a U.S. Federal
Law (Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act of 1998) that grants
them a legal monopoly on the use of that term and several others. By
contrast, ordinary race names are protected only by trade mark law,
which is a good deal looser. In practice, anyone can organize a "world
championship" who wishes to.

-Les Earnest
 
Les Earnest wrote:
> Bob Schwartz wrote:
>> Les Earnest wrote:
>>
>>> Actually the "Cyclocross National Championships" from the 1960s were
>>> listed in the 1991 Rule Book by mistake -- nobody had checked their
>>> legitimacy. I did the research in 1991 and got them removed. The
>>> staff decision to go to 10 year listings in subsequent years provided
>>> a good cover for that mistake.
>>>
>>> That conclusion was based on a USCF rule adopted in 1984 recognizing
>>> that "Only championships organized by the Federation may use the term
>>> `championship' in their race title." That term had been much abused
>>> earlier. For example, so-called "Far West Track Championships" were
>>> held for many years at the Encino Velodrome even though they had no
>>> legitimacy as championships.
>>
>>
>> Maybe they were just humoring you. One of the things I got from
>> Tyger was a copy of the program from the 1993 'Cross Nationals
>> and the stuff from the 1960s is listed.
>>
>> If you check the race program at:
>> http://www.cvccbike.com/ten_years/johnson.jpg
>> the event was sanctioned by the ABLA.
>
> The term "sanctioned" then was the same as "issued a race permit" now
> and was required for any race held under ABLA. However inasmuch as that
> event was not organized by ABLA it was not a national championship even
> though they called it that. Notice, among other things, that the cover
> of the racing program that you point out carries the logo of the Century
> Road Club of America, not ABLA.

Hey Les, did Santa drop off one of these? http://tinyurl.com/yfgwpb

You and I both know how things operated in the sport during the
1960s. This was an ABLA national championship race that awarded
ABLA national championship jerseys and medals, just like the
road champions got at races that were not organized by the ABLA
either.

The recent USCF Cyclocross National Championships were organized
by the New England Cyclo-cross Association for the USCF, just how
they used to work it back in the day. Since you have a special
talent for not admitting the obvious I will leave it at that.

I get the feeling that it was common for people to agree with
you in order to make you go away.

Bob Schwartz
 
Bob Schwartz wrote:

> Les Earnest wrote:
>
>> Bob Schwartz wrote:
>>
>>> Les Earnest wrote:
>>>
>>>> Actually the "Cyclocross National Championships" from the 1960s were
>>>> listed in the 1991 Rule Book by mistake -- nobody had checked their
>>>> legitimacy. I did the research in 1991 and got them removed. The
>>>> staff decision to go to 10 year listings in subsequent years
>>>> provided a good cover for that mistake.
>>>>
>>>> That conclusion was based on a USCF rule adopted in 1984 recognizing
>>>> that "Only championships organized by the Federation may use the
>>>> term `championship' in their race title." That term had been much
>>>> abused earlier. For example, so-called "Far West Track
>>>> Championships" were held for many years at the Encino Velodrome even
>>>> though they had no legitimacy as championships.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe they were just humoring you. One of the things I got from
>>> Tyger was a copy of the program from the 1993 'Cross Nationals
>>> and the stuff from the 1960s is listed.
>>>
>>> If you check the race program at:
>>> http://www.cvccbike.com/ten_years/johnson.jpg
>>> the event was sanctioned by the ABLA.
>>
>>
>> The term "sanctioned" then was the same as "issued a race permit" now
>> and was required for any race held under ABLA. However inasmuch as
>> that event was not organized by ABLA it was not a national
>> championship even though they called it that. Notice, among other
>> things, that the cover of the racing program that you point out
>> carries the logo of the Century Road Club of America, not ABLA.
>
>
> Hey Les, did Santa drop off one of these? http://tinyurl.com/yfgwpb
>
> You and I both know how things operated in the sport during the
> 1960s. This was an ABLA national championship race that awarded
> ABLA national championship jerseys and medals, just like the
> road champions got at races that were not organized by the ABLA
> either.
>
> The recent USCF Cyclocross National Championships were organized
> by the New England Cyclo-cross Association for the USCF, just how
> they used to work it back in the day. Since you have a special
> talent for not admitting the obvious I will leave it at that.
>
> I get the feeling that it was common for people to agree with
> you in order to make you go away.
>
> Bob Schwartz


Dude,

Les was making some credible distinctions that appear to be valid. Why
did you take it so personally?

Magilla
 
Bob Schwartz wrote:
> Hey Les, did Santa drop off one of these? http://tinyurl.com/yfgwpb

I don't think I'm especially cranky but will admit that I'm stubborn
when I think I am right. The syndicate that has taken over USA Cycling
learned that the hard way and paid for the lesson.

> You and I both know how things operated in the sport during the
> 1960s. This was an ABLA national championship race that awarded
> ABLA national championship jerseys and medals, just like the
> road champions got at races that were not organized by the ABLA
> either.
>
> The recent USCF Cyclocross National Championships were organized
> by the New England Cyclo-cross Association for the USCF, just how
> they used to work it back in the day. Since you have a special
> talent for not admitting the obvious I will leave it at that.

Recent USCF Cyclocrosss National Championships have been officially
organized by USCF and some administrative responsibilities have been
delegated to local organizations. These championships are also
specifically recognized in USCF Racing Rules. That was not the case for
the '60s cyclocross events.

Further evidence of the lack of official status for those
"championships" can be found in the *real* national championship
programs from that era. I have the official USCF National Championship
Programs from the 1964, 1965, 1966, and 1967. While they list all
recognized USCF national champions from 1921 on and even show the top 25
finishers for some events as well as various midget, intermediate and
junior national champions, there is no mention any cyclocross events. In
other words, the latter "championships" were not recognized as such at
the time.

Digging further into my files just now I found a handwritten letter from
Theo Kron dated 30 May 1978 requesting that the 1963-67 "Cyclecross
Championships" be listed in the USCF Rule Book. I had just taken over as
editor of that publication and initiated the practice of listing
national champions there. Though I served on the USCF board with Theo
for several years before he left and thought he was a fine fellow, I
respectfully disagreed with his claim and decline to list them. There
probably was some discussion of this matter by the USCF board of
directors at that time but I don't remember it.

I stopped editing the rule book after 1965, when I temporarily lost my
seat on the board as a result of my advocacy of a strong helmet rule, an
unpopular position at that time. The USCF staff then took over the
editing and, as I mentioned earlier, once made the mistake of listing
those "national championships" without checking their legitimacy.

> I get the feeling that it was common for people to agree with
> you in order to make you go away.
>
> Bob Schwartz

Feel free.

-Les Earnest
 
Les Earnest wrote:
> I stopped editing the rule book after 1965, when I temporarily lost
my . . .

Oops. Make that 1985.
 
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