Topo Software is Cool!

Warren Block wrote:
:: Matt O'Toole <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
::: This makes sense. However, I'm surprised they're still
::: interpolating anything, w/ three dimensional plots of
::: the actual roads perhaps being available in GIS
::: databases.
::
:: There's a version of Topo available for use with the
:: Computrainer (computrainer.comcomputrainer.comOpen ↗), and the
:: problem is well known. Topo has the topo data, and the
:: routes of the roads, but roads often don't follow the
:: terrain. Cuts are made through hills, bridges over
:: valleys, and that adds up. The Computrainer version of
:: Topo has a "bridging" feature that lets you correct this
:: manually. I've tested this on local rides, and there are
:: some notable up-and-downs on routes that I know are not
:: that way in real life.
::
:: If there's true topo data for the roads themselves, it's
:: not in Topo. It would probably increase the database
:: size (possibly a lot), without increasing sales of the
:: program much.

Speaking of sales, just who are the typical customers of
such software? Obviously, some of us, and perhaps those who
hike, and maybe those to work in delivery? Who else?

I'm interesting in the DVD version, but I'm a bit unsure
if I'll really benefit from it. I'm using MS Streets and
Trips and find it fun to use....but I've already found two
road errors within a 20-mile raduis of my house (one
within 0.5 miles of my house), in addition to it missing a
major new highway!

Quoted message said:

Speaking of sales, just who are the typical customers of
such software? Obviously, some of us, and perhaps those who
hike, and maybe those to work in delivery? Who else?

Not delivery people - they don't really care about
topographical data. On the other hand, utilities,
engineering firms and similar outfits typically maintain
large GIS databases with their infrastructure overlaid.

Quoted message said:

I'm interesting in the DVD version, but I'm a bit unsure
if I'll really benefit from it. I'm using MS Streets and
Trips and find it fun to use....but I've already found two
road errors within a 20-mile raduis of my house (one
within 0.5 miles of my house), in addition to it missing a
major new highway!

Streets and Trips is a superior product for trip planning,
but if you really care about what the land is like around
that road, Topo or a similar product is a must have.

I own S&T which I use for trip planning and finding
addresses, but I also use Topo, Back Roads Explorer (1:100K
Topo data for the entire U.S. on 17 disks), and Topo USA
(inferior IMHO, but the 3D feature is neat!) for getting a
feel for what the roads I will be riding are like.

Chris Neary [email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you
ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I loved" -
Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

Ken said:

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:5O-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks.
This thing is cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and then
check the profile. The interface isn't the best, but it's
been fun finding all the grades and elevation gains of
all my favorite rides.

Quoted message said:

I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program
to be wildly inaccurate. Elevations at particular points
aren't too bad, but the road vectors in their database do
not follow the real world roads very closely.

I've played around with the free web based topo maps offered
by the USGS at nationalmap.usgs.govnationalmap.usgs.govOpen ↗ . (The database
is offline at the current moment) The road vectors rendered
by their database do not necessarily line up with the actual
roads visable in the aerial photographs. The actual
elevation data captured is in a resolution of 1 arc second
which is a 30x30 meter square. This isn't a fine enough
resolution to determine the exact elevation of the road,
just the elevation of whatever surface in the area that
reflected the largest radar/sonar signal to the airplane
flying overhead making the measurements. For any application
where the road is not reasonably level with the surrounding
terrain, the USGS elevation data won't be very accurate.

--
---
Eric Yagerlener [email hidden]

[email hidden] (Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"😉 wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I've used DeLorme for three years now, and I love it too.
It not only does what you stated, but it also prints out a
rout including mileage. Both between turns and total. I
find it a simple matter to copy paste this info into my
route slips for club rides.

I do not think anyone here is saying it does not have its
uses. It does, and creating routes and converting them to
cue sheets is one of them.

There are two main complaints with DeLorme Topo!, one
specific to Topo and one general to all DeLorme software
products. The general complaint is that DeLorme has a non-
standard, non-intuitive interface. I am not the worlds
biggest fan of Windows, but one high point is the definition
of a (loose) standard for how an application should
look/feel. DeLorme makes no attempt to follow that standard,
so the user is left to wade through looking for where
various functionality is hidden.

The specific problem with Topo! is it uses vector
definitions of roads, and the vectors are too long. That
leads to wildly unrealistic topographic information, e.g.,
gross and net elevation gain and percent grade. This is a
topographic program, yet it's topographic features are so
blatantly bad to be nearly useless. As others have said, the
'straight lines' (vectors) do not follow the curves very
well; the problem is that the vectors are too long; shorten
them up and the problem gets less. At some point the vectors
get small enough that they can approximate most curves
rather well and the information becomes fairly accurate -
not saying they have to go that far, but they are not even
in the ballpark at this time.

I have one other complaint about the product (Topo 4.0 for
reference, may be fixed in 5.0, but not holding my breath).
If you load all the data to hard drive for better
performance, startup of the program takes much longer. They
are looking for the CD in the CD drive(s) and they wait for
a timeout. Hey, I've installed the data to disk, I used
their setup program to do it; It should recognize that fact
and not spend a lot of time finding what it does not need to
find. Poor programming!!!

- rick

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"😉 wrote
in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've used DeLorme for three years now, and I love it
too. It not only does what you stated, but it also
prints out a rout including mileage. Both between turns
and total. I find it a simple matter to copy paste this
info into my route slips for club rides.

I do not think anyone here is saying it does not have its
uses. It does, and creating routes and converting them to
cue sheets is one of them.

There are two main complaints with DeLorme Topo!, one
specific to Topo and one general to all DeLorme software
products. The general complaint is that DeLorme has a non-
standard, non-intuitive interface. I am not the worlds
biggest fan of Windows, but one high point is the
definition of a (loose) standard for how an application
should look/feel. DeLorme makes no attempt to follow that
standard, so the user is left to wade through looking for
where various functionality is hidden.

The specific problem with Topo! is it uses vector
definitions of roads, and the vectors are too long. That
leads to wildly unrealistic topographic information, e.g.,
gross and net elevation gain and percent grade. This is a
topographic program, yet it's topographic features are so
blatantly bad to be nearly useless. As others have said,
the 'straight lines' (vectors) do not follow the curves
very well; the problem is that the vectors are too long;
shorten them up and the problem gets less. At some point
the vectors get small enough that they can approximate
most curves rather well and the information becomes fairly
accurate - not saying they have to go that far, but they
are not even in the ballpark at this time.

I have one other complaint about the product (Topo 4.0 for
reference, may be fixed in 5.0, but not holding my
breath). If you load all the data to hard drive for better
performance, startup of the program takes much longer.
They are looking for the CD in the CD drive(s) and they
wait for a timeout. Hey, I've installed the data to disk,
I used their setup program to do it; It should recognize
that fact and not spend a lot of time finding what it does
not need to find. Poor programming!!!

- rick

Is there an alternative program that isn't hampered by these
limitations?

Rick Warner said:

There are two main complaints with DeLorme Topo!, one
specific to Topo and one general to all DeLorme software
products. The general complaint is that DeLorme has a non-
standard, non-intuitive interface.

Yeh, the UI is a challenge to learn. They didn't improve
anything in
5., either. I still haven't figured out how to edit
existing trails.

Quoted message said:

The specific problem with Topo! is it uses vector
definitions of roads, and the vectors are too long. That
leads to wildly unrealistic topographic information, e.g.,
gross and net elevation gain and percent grade. This is a
topographic program, yet it's topographic features are so
blatantly bad to be nearly useless. As others have

I've used Topo! 4, and now 5.0 for about three years almost
exclusively to map out backpacking trips in Colorado. I have
not seen the discrepancies mentioned and find Topo! a very
valuable, and adequately accurate, tool for estimating
itinerary difficulty. From this, I assume the trails are
represented differently (e.g. as "draw" objects) than street
data, correct?

Quoted message said:

I have one other complaint about the product (Topo 4.0 for
reference, may be fixed in 5.0, but not holding my
breath). If you load all the data to hard drive for better
performance, startup of the program takes much longer.
They are looking for the CD in the CD drive(s) and

You can fix this by hacking the registry. Look for the keys
"west", "east", etc. and point them to your hard drive
location rather than the CD. However, I've had crashes and
lockups if you don't load ALL the data to the HD. Also, be
sure to apply all the patches (there's several major 4.0
upgrades).

I agree its poor programming, though (like the UI, IMHO).

Other annoyances:

You can't choose the map detail level at a particular zoom
level. My Colorado trails, for example, disappear from the
display when you zoom out.

New colors and resolution in 5.0 makes minor roads difficult
to distinguish.

Mike dot Hejl at motorola dot com

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is there an alternative program that isn't hampered by
these limitations?

Depends on how you define your needs/wants. DeLorme Topo is
in the market as mapping software that provides topographic
information. As I said in the previous message, the
topographic information is so flawed to be pretty useless
for my purposes. Taking that out of the equation the program
then becomes mapping software. A lot of competition once you
discount the topo stuff. My current favorite is Garmin's
MetroGuide USA and MetroGuide Europe. Neither try to do
anything with topo data, but better not to try than to do it
poorly IMHO. And they have a more intuitive interface, and
can actually follow roads (beef about DeLorme on this issue
below). The added benefit is I can download not only the
route info to my GPS, but also detailed map data, including
a database of information on services, attractions, etc.
that can be queried.

OK, now to my other beef on DeLorme that I forgot to add to
my prior message, and the one that led me to get Garmin
MetroGuide USA. DeLorme Topo in many of the instances I have
tried around here cannot follow a named road. Should be
easy, right? Set one end of the road as the beginning of the
route, the other end of the road as the end of the route,
and it should follow that road, at leas t that is what I
would expect. This is Tuesday, and on Tuesday mornings I
ride with a group and the center part of the ride is an
approx. 3.25 mile hill climb on a named, paved 2 lane road.
Try to map it in Topo by marking the end points and the
program sets a route that goes up private driveways, onto
dirt side roads, and almost everywhere except along the
named road. The only way to make it follow that road is to
set a via point at literally every curve in the road. PITA!
Pretty useless to have to use 10-15 Via points for a 3.25
mile segment.

If you just want mapping software, can ignore the topo data,
and can live with the ugly and non-intuitive UI, then
DeLorme Topo is OK. Otherwise, look for something else.

Of course, I wish that ride/event organizers would stop
using the Delorme Topo info in the marketing of their rides;
depending on the person who reads it they either get scared
off by the excessively bloated elevation gain figures, or
they think the figures are 'gospel' and start bragging about
the 'big one' - which like most fish stories has to be taken
with a grain of salt.

- rick

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is there an alternative program that isn't hampered
by these

limitations?

Quoted message said:

Depends on how you define your needs/wants. DeLorme Topo
is in the market as mapping software that provides
topographic information. As I said in the previous
message, the topographic information is so flawed to be
pretty useless for my purposes. Taking that out of the
equation the program then becomes mapping software.

Is there something that does the topographic function
better?

Bestest Handsander wrote:
:: "Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: "]news:[email hidden]...
::: "Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:<[email hidden]>...
:::: "Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:::: message -"]news:[email hidden]-
:::: le.com...
:::
::::
:::: Is there an alternative program that isn't hampered by
:::: these limitations?
:::
::: Depends on how you define your needs/wants. DeLorme Topo
::: is in the market as mapping software that provides
::: topographic information. As I said in the previous
::: message, the topographic information is so flawed to be
::: pretty useless for my purposes. Taking that out of the
::: equation the program then becomes mapping software.
::
:: Is there something that does the topographic function
:: better?

My guess: no. If so and if people knew of it, it would have
been mentioned by now...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Depends on how you define your needs/wants. DeLorme Topo
is in the market as mapping software that provides
topographic information. As I said in the previous
message, the topographic information is so flawed to be
pretty useless for my purposes. Taking that out of the
equation the program then becomes mapping software.

Is there something that does the topographic function
better?

I'd argue that National Geographic's Topo! is a
superior product.

REF: maps.nationalgeographic.comtopoOpen ↗

Chris Neary [email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you
ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I loved" -
Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

In article <[email hidden]>,

Chris Neary said:

I'd argue that National Geographic's Topo! is a superior
product. REF: maps.nationalgeographic.comtopoOpen ↗

Topo! is a different product. Topo! does not have a road
database, so you have to draw roads by hand and program's
drawing tools stink. Hard to tell which is less accurate,
the inaccurate roads in DeLorme or your inaccurate hand-
drawn roads.

On Wed, 12 May 2004 03:10:33 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] wrote:

<In article <[email hidden]>,
<Chris Neary <[email hidden] > wrote: <>I'd argue
that National Geographic's Topo! is a superior product.
<>REF: maps.nationalgeographic.comtopoOpen ↗ < <Topo!
is a different product. Topo! does not have a road
database, <so you have to draw roads by hand and program's
drawing tools stink. <Hard to tell which is less accurate,
the inaccurate roads in DeLorme <or your inaccurate hand-
drawn roads.

I use Natgeo topo, the regional/older series, not the
state/newer modules. No computer on my usual ride and I use
this software to maintain my log, bad drawing tools and all.

Well, I just lost my usual frame to winter riding, cracked
seat stays, and a friend of mine was nice enough to lend me
his flight deck equipped ride and yesterday I was playing
with the computer, dld the instructions from the Shimano web
site and noted the ODO reading 324.1 miles. So happens my
worksheet was showing 324 miles. I have always felt that I
was no more apt to lengthen or shorten my ride when tracing
the route, and the second opinion from the bike computer
provides a reasonable assurance.

With the topo figures, I do notice some problems but I look
at it the same way, I don't think the software is biased in
it's errors and on balance it provides a fair gauge to
compare individual rides and to evaluate/place that spurious
ride among the usual tours.

What I want is a gps unit that will take readings as I ride
and interface to software that will do the tracing and
logging. Now that would be sweet!

bcnu-bk.

On Tue, 11 May 2004 14:04:25 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] wrote:

<> I have one other complaint about the product (Topo 4.0
for reference, <> may be fixed in 5.0, but not holding my
breath). If you load all the <> data to hard drive for
better performance, startup of the program <> takes much
longer. They are looking for the CD in the CD drive(s) and <
<You can fix this by hacking the registry. Look for the keys
"west", <"east", etc. and point them to your hard drive
location rather than the CD. <However, I've had crashes and
lockups if you don't load ALL the data to <the HD. Also, be
sure to apply all the patches (there's several major 4.0
<upgrades).

You might want to try a freeware tool called Daemon Tools(www.daemon-
tools.cc). It will load an hard drived based iso of a cd as
a virtual drive. I use it for my topo cd. No regitry editing
needed here and seemless.

On Wed, 12 May 2004 02:32:36 GMT, Chris Neary <[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Depends on how you define your needs/wants. DeLorme Topo
is in the market as mapping software that provides
topographic information. As I said in the previous
message, the topographic information is so flawed to be
pretty useless for my purposes. Taking that out of the
equation the program then becomes mapping software.

Is there something that does the topographic
function better?

I'd argue that National Geographic's Topo! is a
superior product.

REF: maps.nationalgeographic.comtopoOpen ↗

Yes, it is a good topo product. But not a good mapping
product. Have one, or have the other, but getting both in
one package is elusive. FTR, I do have NG's Topo! California
and use it extensively. Great product for what it does.

- rick

William Holiday said:

What I want is a gps unit that will take readings as I ride
and interface to software that will do the tracing and
logging. Now that would be sweet!

That is rather basic functionality. I ride with a GPS some
of the time, and it records and keeps a track log of where I
have been. I can then upload it into any number of packages,
including Nat. Geo's Topo!, Delorme Topo, Garmin's products,
and third party ones (I use one called GarTrip). I can then
do various analyses, etc. on the track logs. The GPS I am
using now is a Garmin eTrex Vista, before that I used an
eTrex Legend (Vista has more memory, and a barometric
altimeter). But finding a GPS that logs is easy!

Here is an image of a track log from one of my recent pre-
breakfast rides after being imported into Topo!; beware it
is a bit big: home.earthlink.nettopoOpen ↗
morning.jpg

- rick

Rick Warner wrote:
:: On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:31:39 -0400, William Holiday
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
:::
:::
::: What I want is a gps unit that will take readings as I
::: ride and interface to software that will do the tracing
::: and logging. Now that would be sweet!
:::
::
:: That is rather basic functionality. I ride with a GPS
:: some of the time, and it records and keeps a track log of
:: where I have been. I can then upload it into any number
:: of packages, including Nat. Geo's Topo!, Delorme Topo,
:: Garmin's products, and third party ones (I use one called
:: GarTrip). I can then do various analyses, etc. on the
:: track logs. The GPS I am using now is a Garmin eTrex
:: Vista, before that I used an eTrex Legend (Vista has more
:: memory, and a barometric altimeter). But finding a GPS
:: that logs is easy!
::
:: Here is an image of a track log from one of my recent pre-
:: breakfast rides after being imported into Topo!; beware
:: it is a bit big: home.earthlink.nettopoOpen ↗
:: morning.jpg

Okay...that's plain cool....what exactly do I need to be
able to make this kind of plot on my rides (even if
elevation is not accurate)?

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Rick Warner wrote:
:: On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:31:39 -0400, William Holiday
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
:::
:::
::: What I want is a gps unit that will take readings as I
::: ride and interface to software that will do the
::: tracing and logging. Now that would be sweet!
:::
::
:: That is rather basic functionality. I ride with a GPS
:: some of the time, and it records and keeps a track log
:: of where I have been. I can then upload it into any
:: number of packages, including Nat. Geo's Topo!, Delorme
:: Topo, Garmin's products, and third party ones (I use
:: one called GarTrip). I can then do various analyses,
:: etc. on the track logs. The GPS I am using now is a
:: Garmin eTrex Vista, before that I used an eTrex Legend
:: (Vista has more memory, and a barometric altimeter).
:: But finding a GPS that logs is easy!
::
:: Here is an image of a track log from one of my recent
:: pre-breakfast rides after being imported into Topo!;
:: beware it is a bit big: home.earthlink.nettopoOpen ↗
:: morning.jpg

Okay...that's plain cool....what exactly do I need to be
able to make this kind of plot on my rides (even if
elevation is not accurate)?

First off, that elevation stat is actually fairly accurate;
the DeLorme figure for that same route is much, much higher,
but this figure (from Nat. Geo.'s Topo California) is
actually quite close to the reading I get from a barometric
altimeter.

This is actually quite simple. I have a GPS that logs a
record of where I have been, a track (my GPS, as I said, is
an eTrex Vista, but many other models do the same thing). I
attach the GPS to a handlebar mount and reset it just before
leaving home. I ride the route. After the ride I take the
GPS, connect it to my PC (using the cable that came with the
GPS) and start National Geographic's Topo software. From
within the software I choose to import a track log from an
attached GPS (already configured the software the know the
model and communications information to talk to the GPS).
The imported track log is red track on the map, exactly as
it appeared after importation; all I have done is zoom in to
level 4 (of 5) detail of the map. I then right mouse clicked
on the track and selected 'Build Profile' from the menu. It
followed the track, took elevation data from its database,
and created the elevation profile at the bottom. All I have
done after that is selected to save the map (print image) to
disk. All of the post ride processing, from unclipping the
GPS from the handlebar mount to having the JPEG of the map
took maybe 3 minutes.

- rick

On Wed, 12 May 2004 05:33:33 GMT, Rick Warner <[email hidden]>
wrote:

<On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:31:39 -0400, William Holiday
<<[email hidden]> wrote: < <> <> <>What I want is a
gps unit that will take readings as I ride and interface to
<>software that will do the tracing and logging. Now that
would be sweet! <> < <That is rather basic functionality. I
ride with a GPS some of the <time, and it records and keeps
a track log of where I have been. I <can then upload it into
any number of packages, including Nat. Geo's <Topo!, Delorme
Topo, Garmin's products, and third party ones (I use <one
called GarTrip). I can then do various analyses, etc. on the
<track logs. The GPS I am using now is a Garmin eTrex Vista,
before <that I used an eTrex Legend (Vista has more memory,
and a barometric <altimeter). But finding a GPS that logs is
easy! < <Here is an image of a track log from one of my
recent pre-breakfast <rides after being imported into Topo!;
beware it is a bit big: <home.earthlink.nettopoOpen ↗
morning.jpg

Maybe I should have stated my wish as "what you wrote and in
a later post described" for around a hundred bucks (that I'd
pay 200 for) and It figures newegg has the Legend for 165
right now... what to do. I had noticed the GPS menu option
in Topo, but I'd have to upgrade the software to access it.

The Vista does more but it's twice the cost.

Thanks for posting, this could be fun!

William Holiday <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 12 May 2004 05:33:33 GMT, Rick Warner
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Maybe I should have stated my wish as "what you wrote and
in a later post described" for around a hundred bucks
(that I'd pay 200 for) and It figures newegg has the
Legend for 165 right now... what to do. I had noticed the
GPS menu option in Topo, but I'd have to upgrade the
software to access it.

Upgrade Topo or the firmware in the Legend?

You can download Topo upgrades, for free, from the National
Geographic site. You can download firmware upgrades for
Garmin GPSs free from their site. So the software upgrade
issue should be just a time issue, not a money issue.

Have fun!

- rick

William Holiday <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 12 May 2004 05:33:33 GMT, Rick Warner
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Maybe I should have stated my wish as "what you wrote and
in a later post described" for around a hundred bucks
(that I'd pay 200 for) and It figures newegg has the
Legend for 165 right now... what to do. I had noticed the
GPS menu option in Topo, but I'd have to upgrade the
software to access it.

Upgrade Topo or the firmware in the Legend?

You can download Topo upgrades, for free, from the National
Geographic site. You can download firmware upgrades for
Garmin GPSs free from their site. So the software upgrade
issue should be just a time issue, not a money issue.

Have fun!

- rick