Topo Software is Cool!

Warren Block wrote:
:: Matt O'Toole <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
::: This makes sense. However, I'm surprised they're still
::: interpolating anything, w/ three dimensional plots of the actual
::: roads perhaps being available in GIS databases.
::
:: There's a version of Topo available for use with the Computrainer
:: (http://www.computrainer.com), and the problem is well known. Topo
:: has
:: the topo data, and the routes of the roads, but roads often don't
:: follow
:: the terrain. Cuts are made through hills, bridges over valleys, and
:: that adds up. The Computrainer version of Topo has a "bridging"
:: feature
:: that lets you correct this manually. I've tested this on local
:: rides,
:: and there are some notable up-and-downs on routes that I know are not
:: that way in real life.
::
:: If there's true topo data for the roads themselves, it's not in Topo.
:: It would probably increase the database size (possibly a lot),
:: without increasing sales of the program much.

Speaking of sales, just who are the typical customers of such software?
Obviously, some of us, and perhaps those who hike, and maybe those to work
in delivery? Who else?

I'm interesting in the DVD version, but I'm a bit unsure if I'll really
benefit from it. I'm using MS Streets and Trips and find it fun to
use....but I've already found two road errors within a 20-mile raduis of my
house (one within 0.5 miles of my house), in addition to it missing a major
new highway!

Quoted message said:

Speaking of sales, just who are the typical customers of such software?
Obviously, some of us, and perhaps those who hike, and maybe those to work
in delivery? Who else?

Not delivery people - they don't really care about topographical data. On
the other hand, utilities, engineering firms and similar outfits typically
maintain large GIS databases with their infrastructure overlaid.

Quoted message said:

I'm interesting in the DVD version, but I'm a bit unsure if I'll really
benefit from it. I'm using MS Streets and Trips and find it fun to
use....but I've already found two road errors within a 20-mile raduis of my
house (one within 0.5 miles of my house), in addition to it missing a major
new highway!

Streets and Trips is a superior product for trip planning, but if you really
care about what the land is like around that road, Topo or a similar product
is a must have.

I own S&T which I use for trip planning and finding addresses, but I also
use Topo, Back Roads Explorer (1:100K Topo data for the entire U.S. on 17
disks), and Topo USA (inferior IMHO, but the 3D feature is neat!) for
getting a feel for what the roads I will be riding are like.

Chris Neary
[email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

Ken said:

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks. This thing is
cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and then check the profile. The
interface isn't the best, but it's been fun finding all the grades and
elevation gains of all my favorite rides.

Quoted message said:

I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program to be wildly
inaccurate. Elevations at particular points aren't too bad, but the road
vectors in their database do not follow the real world roads very closely.

I've played around with the free web based topo maps offered by the USGS at
http://nationalmap.usgs.gov . (The database is offline at the current moment)
The road vectors rendered by their database do not necessarily line up with
the actual roads visable in the aerial photographs. The actual elevation data
captured is in a resolution of 1 arc second which is a 30x30 meter square.
This isn't a fine enough resolution to determine the exact elevation of the
road, just the elevation of whatever surface in the area that reflected the
largest radar/sonar signal to the airplane flying overhead making the
measurements. For any application where the road is not reasonably level with
the surrounding terrain, the USGS elevation data won't be very accurate.

--
---
Eric Yagerlener
[email hidden]

[email hidden] (Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"😉 wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I've used DeLorme for three years now, and I love it too. It not only
does what you stated, but it also prints out a rout including mileage.
Both between turns and total. I find it a simple matter to copy paste
this info into my route slips for club rides.

I do not think anyone here is saying it does not have its uses. It
does, and creating routes and converting them to cue sheets is one of
them.

There are two main complaints with DeLorme Topo!, one specific to Topo
and one general to all DeLorme software products. The general
complaint is that DeLorme has a non-standard, non-intuitive interface.
I am not the worlds biggest fan of Windows, but one high point is the
definition of a (loose) standard for how an application should
look/feel. DeLorme makes no attempt to follow that standard, so the
user is left to wade through looking for where various functionality
is hidden.

The specific problem with Topo! is it uses vector definitions of
roads, and the vectors are too long. That leads to wildly unrealistic
topographic information, e.g., gross and net elevation gain and
percent grade. This is a topographic program, yet it's topographic
features are so blatantly bad to be nearly useless. As others have
said, the 'straight lines' (vectors) do not follow the curves very
well; the problem is that the vectors are too long; shorten them up
and the problem gets less. At some point the vectors get small enough
that they can approximate most curves rather well and the information
becomes fairly accurate - not saying they have to go that far, but
they are not even in the ballpark at this time.

I have one other complaint about the product (Topo 4.0 for reference,
may be fixed in 5.0, but not holding my breath). If you load all the
data to hard drive for better performance, startup of the program
takes much longer. They are looking for the CD in the CD drive(s) and
they wait for a timeout. Hey, I've installed the data to disk, I used
their setup program to do it; It should recognize that fact and not
spend a lot of time finding what it does not need to find. Poor
programming!!!

- rick

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"😉 wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've used DeLorme for three years now, and I love it too. It not only
does what you stated, but it also prints out a rout including mileage.
Both between turns and total. I find it a simple matter to copy paste
this info into my route slips for club rides.

I do not think anyone here is saying it does not have its uses. It
does, and creating routes and converting them to cue sheets is one of
them.

There are two main complaints with DeLorme Topo!, one specific to Topo
and one general to all DeLorme software products. The general
complaint is that DeLorme has a non-standard, non-intuitive interface.
I am not the worlds biggest fan of Windows, but one high point is the
definition of a (loose) standard for how an application should
look/feel. DeLorme makes no attempt to follow that standard, so the
user is left to wade through looking for where various functionality
is hidden.

The specific problem with Topo! is it uses vector definitions of
roads, and the vectors are too long. That leads to wildly unrealistic
topographic information, e.g., gross and net elevation gain and
percent grade. This is a topographic program, yet it's topographic
features are so blatantly bad to be nearly useless. As others have
said, the 'straight lines' (vectors) do not follow the curves very
well; the problem is that the vectors are too long; shorten them up
and the problem gets less. At some point the vectors get small enough
that they can approximate most curves rather well and the information
becomes fairly accurate - not saying they have to go that far, but
they are not even in the ballpark at this time.

I have one other complaint about the product (Topo 4.0 for reference,
may be fixed in 5.0, but not holding my breath). If you load all the
data to hard drive for better performance, startup of the program
takes much longer. They are looking for the CD in the CD drive(s) and
they wait for a timeout. Hey, I've installed the data to disk, I used
their setup program to do it; It should recognize that fact and not
spend a lot of time finding what it does not need to find. Poor
programming!!!

- rick

Is there an alternative program that isn't hampered by these limitations?

Rick Warner said:

There are two main complaints with DeLorme Topo!, one specific to Topo
and one general to all DeLorme software products. The general
complaint is that DeLorme has a non-standard, non-intuitive interface.

Yeh, the UI is a challenge to learn. They didn't improve anything in
5.0, either. I still haven't figured out how to edit existing trails.

Quoted message said:

The specific problem with Topo! is it uses vector definitions of
roads, and the vectors are too long. That leads to wildly unrealistic
topographic information, e.g., gross and net elevation gain and
percent grade. This is a topographic program, yet it's topographic
features are so blatantly bad to be nearly useless. As others have

I've used Topo! 4, and now 5.0 for about three years almost exclusively
to map out backpacking trips in Colorado. I have not seen the discrepancies
mentioned and find Topo! a very valuable, and adequately accurate, tool
for estimating itinerary difficulty. From this, I assume the trails are
represented differently (e.g. as "draw" objects) than street data, correct?

Quoted message said:

I have one other complaint about the product (Topo 4.0 for reference,
may be fixed in 5.0, but not holding my breath). If you load all the
data to hard drive for better performance, startup of the program
takes much longer. They are looking for the CD in the CD drive(s) and

You can fix this by hacking the registry. Look for the keys "west",
"east", etc. and point them to your hard drive location rather than the CD.
However, I've had crashes and lockups if you don't load ALL the data to
the HD. Also, be sure to apply all the patches (there's several major 4.0
upgrades).

I agree its poor programming, though (like the UI, IMHO).

Other annoyances:

You can't choose the map detail level at a particular zoom level. My
Colorado trails, for example, disappear from the display when you zoom
out.

New colors and resolution in 5.0 makes minor roads difficult to distinguish.

Mike dot Hejl at motorola dot com

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is there an alternative program that isn't hampered by these limitations?

Depends on how you define your needs/wants. DeLorme Topo is in the
market as mapping software that provides topographic information. As
I said in the previous message, the topographic information is so
flawed to be pretty useless for my purposes. Taking that out of the
equation the program then becomes mapping software. A lot of
competition once you discount the topo stuff. My current favorite is
Garmin's MetroGuide USA and MetroGuide Europe. Neither try to do
anything with topo data, but better not to try than to do it poorly
IMHO. And they have a more intuitive interface, and can actually
follow roads (beef about DeLorme on this issue below). The added
benefit is I can download not only the route info to my GPS, but also
detailed map data, including a database of information on services,
attractions, etc. that can be queried.

OK, now to my other beef on DeLorme that I forgot to add to my prior
message, and the one that led me to get Garmin MetroGuide USA.
DeLorme Topo in many of the instances I have tried around here cannot
follow a named road. Should be easy, right? Set one end of the road
as the beginning of the route, the other end of the road as the end of
the route, and it should follow that road, at leas t that is what I
would expect. This is Tuesday, and on Tuesday mornings I ride with a
group and the center part of the ride is an approx. 3.25 mile hill
climb on a named, paved 2 lane road. Try to map it in Topo by marking
the end points and the program sets a route that goes up private
driveways, onto dirt side roads, and almost everywhere except along
the named road. The only way to make it follow that road is to set a
via point at literally every curve in the road. PITA! Pretty
useless to have to use 10-15 Via points for a 3.25 mile segment.

If you just want mapping software, can ignore the topo data, and can
live with the ugly and non-intuitive UI, then DeLorme Topo is OK.
Otherwise, look for something else.

Of course, I wish that ride/event organizers would stop using the
Delorme Topo info in the marketing of their rides; depending on the
person who reads it they either get scared off by the excessively
bloated elevation gain figures, or they think the figures are 'gospel'
and start bragging about the 'big one' - which like most fish stories
has to be taken with a grain of salt.

- rick

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is there an alternative program that isn't hampered by these

limitations?

Quoted message said:

Depends on how you define your needs/wants. DeLorme Topo is in the
market as mapping software that provides topographic information. As
I said in the previous message, the topographic information is so
flawed to be pretty useless for my purposes. Taking that out of the
equation the program then becomes mapping software.

Is there something that does the topographic function better?

Bestest Handsander wrote:
:: "Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: "Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:<[email hidden]>...
:::: "Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:::: news:[email hidden]...
:::
::::
:::: Is there an alternative program that isn't hampered by these
:::: limitations?
:::
::: Depends on how you define your needs/wants. DeLorme Topo is in the
::: market as mapping software that provides topographic information.
::: As I said in the previous message, the topographic information is so
::: flawed to be pretty useless for my purposes. Taking that out of the
::: equation the program then becomes mapping software.
::
:: Is there something that does the topographic function better?

My guess: no. If so and if people knew of it, it would have been mentioned
by now...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Depends on how you define your needs/wants. DeLorme Topo is in the
market as mapping software that provides topographic information. As
I said in the previous message, the topographic information is so
flawed to be pretty useless for my purposes. Taking that out of the
equation the program then becomes mapping software.

Is there something that does the topographic function better?

I'd argue that National Geographic's Topo! is a superior product.

REF: http://maps.nationalgeographic.com/topo/

Chris Neary
[email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

In article <[email hidden]>,

Chris Neary said:

I'd argue that National Geographic's Topo! is a superior product.
REF: http://maps.nationalgeographic.com/topo/

Topo! is a different product. Topo! does not have a road database,
so you have to draw roads by hand and program's drawing tools stink.
Hard to tell which is less accurate, the inaccurate roads in DeLorme
or your inaccurate hand-drawn roads.

On Wed, 12 May 2004 03:10:33 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] wrote:

<In article <[email hidden]>,
<Chris Neary <[email hidden] > wrote:
<>I'd argue that National Geographic's Topo! is a superior product.
<>REF: http://maps.nationalgeographic.com/topo/
<
<Topo! is a different product. Topo! does not have a road database,
<so you have to draw roads by hand and program's drawing tools stink.
<Hard to tell which is less accurate, the inaccurate roads in DeLorme
<or your inaccurate hand-drawn roads.

I use Natgeo topo, the regional/older series, not the state/newer modules. No
computer on my usual ride and I use this software to maintain my log, bad
drawing tools and all.

Well, I just lost my usual frame to winter riding, cracked seat stays, and a
friend of mine was nice enough to lend me his flight deck equipped ride and
yesterday I was playing with the computer, dld the instructions from the Shimano
web site and noted the ODO reading 324.1 miles. So happens my worksheet was
showing 324 miles. I have always felt that I was no more apt to lengthen or
shorten my ride when tracing the route, and the second opinion from the bike
computer provides a reasonable assurance.

With the topo figures, I do notice some problems but I look at it the same way,
I don't think the software is biased in it's errors and on balance it provides a
fair gauge to compare individual rides and to evaluate/place that spurious ride
among the usual tours.

What I want is a gps unit that will take readings as I ride and interface to
software that will do the tracing and logging. Now that would be sweet!

bcnu-bk.

On Tue, 11 May 2004 14:04:25 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] wrote:

<> I have one other complaint about the product (Topo 4.0 for reference,
<> may be fixed in 5.0, but not holding my breath). If you load all the
<> data to hard drive for better performance, startup of the program
<> takes much longer. They are looking for the CD in the CD drive(s) and
<
<You can fix this by hacking the registry. Look for the keys "west",
<"east", etc. and point them to your hard drive location rather than the CD.
<However, I've had crashes and lockups if you don't load ALL the data to
<the HD. Also, be sure to apply all the patches (there's several major 4.0
<upgrades).

You might want to try a freeware tool called Daemon Tools(www.daemon-tools.cc).
It will load an hard drived based iso of a cd as a virtual drive. I use it for
my topo cd. No regitry editing needed here and seemless.

On Wed, 12 May 2004 02:32:36 GMT, Chris Neary <[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Depends on how you define your needs/wants. DeLorme Topo is in the
market as mapping software that provides topographic information. As
I said in the previous message, the topographic information is so
flawed to be pretty useless for my purposes. Taking that out of the
equation the program then becomes mapping software.

Is there something that does the topographic function better?

I'd argue that National Geographic's Topo! is a superior product.

REF: http://maps.nationalgeographic.com/topo/

Yes, it is a good topo product. But not a good mapping product. Have
one, or have the other, but getting both in one package is elusive.
FTR, I do have NG's Topo! California and use it extensively. Great
product for what it does.

- rick

William Holiday said:

What I want is a gps unit that will take readings as I ride and interface to
software that will do the tracing and logging. Now that would be sweet!

That is rather basic functionality. I ride with a GPS some of the
time, and it records and keeps a track log of where I have been. I
can then upload it into any number of packages, including Nat. Geo's
Topo!, Delorme Topo, Garmin's products, and third party ones (I use
one called GarTrip). I can then do various analyses, etc. on the
track logs. The GPS I am using now is a Garmin eTrex Vista, before
that I used an eTrex Legend (Vista has more memory, and a barometric
altimeter). But finding a GPS that logs is easy!

Here is an image of a track log from one of my recent pre-breakfast
rides after being imported into Topo!; beware it is a bit big:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rickwarner/topo-morning.jpg

- rick

Rick Warner wrote:
:: On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:31:39 -0400, William Holiday
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
:::
:::
::: What I want is a gps unit that will take readings as I ride and
::: interface to software that will do the tracing and logging. Now
::: that would be sweet!
:::
::
:: That is rather basic functionality. I ride with a GPS some of the
:: time, and it records and keeps a track log of where I have been. I
:: can then upload it into any number of packages, including Nat. Geo's
:: Topo!, Delorme Topo, Garmin's products, and third party ones (I use
:: one called GarTrip). I can then do various analyses, etc. on the
:: track logs. The GPS I am using now is a Garmin eTrex Vista, before
:: that I used an eTrex Legend (Vista has more memory, and a barometric
:: altimeter). But finding a GPS that logs is easy!
::
:: Here is an image of a track log from one of my recent pre-breakfast
:: rides after being imported into Topo!; beware it is a bit big:
:: http://home.earthlink.net/~rickwarner/topo-morning.jpg

Okay...that's plain cool....what exactly do I need to be able to make this
kind of plot on my rides (even if elevation is not accurate)?

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Rick Warner wrote:
:: On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:31:39 -0400, William Holiday
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
:::
:::
::: What I want is a gps unit that will take readings as I ride and
::: interface to software that will do the tracing and logging. Now
::: that would be sweet!
:::
::
:: That is rather basic functionality. I ride with a GPS some of the
:: time, and it records and keeps a track log of where I have been. I
:: can then upload it into any number of packages, including Nat. Geo's
:: Topo!, Delorme Topo, Garmin's products, and third party ones (I use
:: one called GarTrip). I can then do various analyses, etc. on the
:: track logs. The GPS I am using now is a Garmin eTrex Vista, before
:: that I used an eTrex Legend (Vista has more memory, and a barometric
:: altimeter). But finding a GPS that logs is easy!
::
:: Here is an image of a track log from one of my recent pre-breakfast
:: rides after being imported into Topo!; beware it is a bit big:
:: http://home.earthlink.net/~rickwarner/topo-morning.jpg

Okay...that's plain cool....what exactly do I need to be able to make this
kind of plot on my rides (even if elevation is not accurate)?

First off, that elevation stat is actually fairly accurate; the
DeLorme figure for that same route is much, much higher, but this
figure (from Nat. Geo.'s Topo California) is actually quite close to
the reading I get from a barometric altimeter.

This is actually quite simple. I have a GPS that logs a record of
where I have been, a track (my GPS, as I said, is an eTrex Vista, but
many other models do the same thing). I attach the GPS to a handlebar
mount and reset it just before leaving home. I ride the route. After
the ride I take the GPS, connect it to my PC (using the cable that
came with the GPS) and start National Geographic's Topo software.
From within the software I choose to import a track log from an
attached GPS (already configured the software the know the model and
communications information to talk to the GPS). The imported track
log is red track on the map, exactly as it appeared after importation;
all I have done is zoom in to level 4 (of 5) detail of the map. I
then right mouse clicked on the track and selected 'Build Profile'
from the menu. It followed the track, took elevation data from its
database, and created the elevation profile at the bottom. All I have
done after that is selected to save the map (print image) to disk.
All of the post ride processing, from unclipping the GPS from the
handlebar mount to having the JPEG of the map took maybe 3 minutes.

- rick

On Wed, 12 May 2004 05:33:33 GMT, Rick Warner <[email hidden]>
wrote:

<On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:31:39 -0400, William Holiday
<<[email hidden]> wrote:
<
<>
<>
<>What I want is a gps unit that will take readings as I ride and interface to
<>software that will do the tracing and logging. Now that would be sweet!
<>
<
<That is rather basic functionality. I ride with a GPS some of the
<time, and it records and keeps a track log of where I have been. I
<can then upload it into any number of packages, including Nat. Geo's
<Topo!, Delorme Topo, Garmin's products, and third party ones (I use
<one called GarTrip). I can then do various analyses, etc. on the
<track logs. The GPS I am using now is a Garmin eTrex Vista, before
<that I used an eTrex Legend (Vista has more memory, and a barometric
<altimeter). But finding a GPS that logs is easy!
<
<Here is an image of a track log from one of my recent pre-breakfast
<rides after being imported into Topo!; beware it is a bit big:
<http://home.earthlink.net/~rickwarner/topo-morning.jpg

Maybe I should have stated my wish as "what you wrote and in a later post
described" for around a hundred bucks (that I'd pay 200 for) and It figures
newegg has the Legend for 165 right now... what to do. I had noticed the GPS
menu option in Topo, but I'd have to upgrade the software to access it.

The Vista does more but it's twice the cost.

Thanks for posting, this could be fun!

William Holiday <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 12 May 2004 05:33:33 GMT, Rick Warner <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Maybe I should have stated my wish as "what you wrote and in a later post
described" for around a hundred bucks (that I'd pay 200 for) and It figures
newegg has the Legend for 165 right now... what to do. I had noticed the GPS
menu option in Topo, but I'd have to upgrade the software to access it.

Upgrade Topo or the firmware in the Legend?

You can download Topo upgrades, for free, from the National Geographic
site. You can download firmware upgrades for Garmin GPSs free from
their site. So the software upgrade issue should be just a time
issue, not a money issue.

Have fun!

- rick

On 13 May 2004 13:12:56 -0700, [email hidden] (Rick Warner) wrote:

<William Holiday <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
<> On Wed, 12 May 2004 05:33:33 GMT, Rick Warner <[email hidden]>
<> wrote:
<
<>
<> Maybe I should have stated my wish as "what you wrote and in a later post
<> described" for around a hundred bucks (that I'd pay 200 for) and It figures
<> newegg has the Legend for 165 right now... what to do. I had noticed the GPS
<> menu option in Topo, but I'd have to upgrade the software to access it.
<
<Upgrade Topo or the firmware in the Legend?

Upgrade NG Topo. I have an older version of this software and the GPS menu
selections are grayed out except for one that pops up a dialog box with an offer
to upgrade the functionality of the software for $39. I have downloaded sw
updates noting, IIRC, increased right click mouse options.

<You can download Topo upgrades, for free, from the National Geographic
<site. You can download firmware upgrades for Garmin GPSs free from
<their site. So the software upgrade issue should be just a time
<issue, not a money issue.

My understanding is that the version that I have is the Regional Series. The web
site calls it "the original" and mentions the State Series as an upgrade, a
seperate product. Here's a link:
http://maps.nationalgeographic.com/topo/regional.cfm

As it turns out, the state series sw that I ordered today is called Northeastern
USA and includes CT, MA, ME, NH, NJ, NY, RI, VT. The regional product I was
using had only CT. I had been mulling the upgrade for awhile and the gps
functionality provided the impetus. I'll make the decision on the receiver next
week.

I have one question comparing the legend and the vista. The legend stores a
thousand waypoints, the vista 3 times that amount. Does the legend store enough
info for the extended weekend ride, say 60 miles, let alone the occasional
century? I'm primarily concerned with the unit's ability to log my ride
after-the-fact rather than anything it can do while I'm out there.

all the best-wh.