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UK and Europe
Published
28 December 2005
Last activity
7 January 2006
Original author
Tony Raven
Posts
133
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  1. DavidR said:

    "Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    DavidR said:

    Where do you get the idea that motorists & cyclists are a different
    species?

    Where do /you/ get the idea that I've got that idea?

    Because you talk about the unfairness of "motorists" paying tax and
    "cyclists" not.

    That's right, it /is/ unfair.

    Quoted message said:

    I am a person that has been offered a choice to make some of my journeys
    free of tax.

    And why should motorists pay tax to be such then? Are motorists better
    paid than anyone else? Is it only the wealthy who rely on cars?

    Quoted message said:

    Some people choose not to use it and then complain about it.

    Some of the more privileged may have the choice. Surely those with more
    choices should pay more taxes for the luxury.

    Quoted message said:

    That's
    whingeing, not unfairness.

    What is - not having any realistic option?

    --
    Matt B

  2. MartinM said:
    Matt B said:
    Quoted message said:

    The reason motorists are clobbered for tax
    is that they are a soft target, like drinkers and smokers.

    Precisely, and it is for that oppressive and unjust reason that many
    motorists feel hard done by.

    well they have a choice, as do drinkers and smokers

    Why pick on motorists, drinkers and smokers? Why not pick on those you
    use gas or coal, those who use cannabis, those who consume saturated
    fats or sugar - it all seems so arbitrary. Why not spread the cost of
    running the country evenly amongst all based on ability to pay?

    --
    Matt B

  3. Peter B said:

    "Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Precisely, and it is for that oppressive and unjust reason that many
    motorists feel hard done by.

    Which is a separate issue to cyclists and what they do or don't pay.

    Yes, they don't pay.

    Quoted message said:

    As a motorist of 35 years I'm well aware that many motoring facilities are
    poor but cyclists don't figure in this,

    They could help improve things if they payed something for the privilege
    of using a bicycle.

    Quoted message said:

    in fact most of my delays are on
    roads from which cyclists are prohibited.

    Ah, you've moved on to the problem of the abysmal motorway
    infrastructure now. Well, if we could raise more tax, a windfall tax on
    cyclists perhaps, as recompense for 100+ years of free facilities, we
    could start improving things there a bit too :-)

    --
    Matt B

  4. The troll "Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    LSMike wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It seems you're implying that cyclists don't pay their way. What
    exactly is it that they don't pay for?

    How much do cyclists compulsorily pay, which they /only/ pay because
    they /are/ cyclists, and which they wouldn't pay if they weren't
    cyclists for *anything*?

    So, what exactly is it that they don't pay for?

  5. The troll "Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >It seems you're implying that cyclists don't pay their way. What
    >exactly is it that they don't pay for?

    Quoted message said:

    No, I'm just stating a fact about cyclists. I'm not suggesting cyclists
    /should/ pay more either ,just pointing out that they don't, whereas
    motorists do.

    Why bother pointing it out, then?

  6. --

    "Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    graham said:

    "DavidR" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    Where do you get the idea that motorists & cyclists are a different
    species?

    By reading this group, no doubt!

    Clearly not as many of have stated here many times that we are both
    cyclists and motorists.

    --
    Tony

    "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
    right."
    - Lord Hailsham

    and like most I am a cyclist 75% of my miles and a motorist the remainder.
    To be honest, in either mode I see a huge amount of
    "careless/insensitive/thoughtless/dangerous/blind"
    "drivers/cyclists/pedestrians" (does that include most). And all in these
    group are aggressive/mad/....etc without regard to other users.
    BUT
    Those sitting in that heavy metal, motorised blocks are peculiarly insulated
    from the real world of soft flesh.
    All those who disregard common sense and road rules are dangerous but
    motorists kill ( or maim) nearly every time.

    Where I live I see that probably 95% of people on cycles ( nb not what I
    define as "cyclists"😉 are extremely dangerous to others ( and even more
    dangerous to themselves as they totally disregard sensible road rules.

    As I cycle more and more and drive my small car less and less I am also
    aware that I am probably safer on my bike than in a car.

    I certainly cycle, on road, much more "positively" ( aggressively!)
    especially on dual carriageway roads in urban areas. It is the only way to
    ensure that I do not get "minimised" -- traffic is more aware of me and I
    have more room to manoeuvre. I get blared at a bit more but at least "they"
    see me.

    I certainly do not feel safe when I am driving my car -- I am aware of a
    huge disregard for basic rules of the road --- a distinct feeling that many
    drivers feel so safe in their metal, sound proof boxes, that they "chance
    it" much more frequently. Jumping traffic lights is becoming more and more
    dangerous. I find that as I slow down for changing lights on my bike ( and
    in my car) I have all types of motorised vehicles passing through on
    distinct reds.

    A long diatribe, sorry, but I am not a "holier than thou cyclist" I am just
    a traveller by all means and whether you walk, cycle or drive, you will meet
    dangerous situations

    and again a "BUT" -- the motorist is hugely dangerous ( and I do include
    myself)

    Trevor A Panther
    In South Yorkshire,
    England, United Kingdom.
    Remove PSANTISPAM to reply

  7. I have kill filed Matt B cos he is a total troll
    but he gets on my lists cos of troll feeders who do net snip eg this post

    DO NOT FEED TROLLS

    --
    Trevor A Panther
    In South Yorkshire,
    England, United Kingdom.
    Remove PSANTISPAM to reply
    "MartinM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Matt B said:
    Quoted message said:

    The reason motorists are clobbered for tax
    is that they are a soft target, like drinkers and smokers.

    Precisely, and it is for that oppressive and unjust reason that many
    motorists feel hard done by.

    well they have a choice, as do drinkers and smokers

  8. Sorry part of my last post disappeared!

    --
    Trevor A Panther
    In South Yorkshire,
    England, United Kingdom.
    Remove PSANTISPAM to reply
    "Pinky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    --

    "Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    graham said:

    "DavidR" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    > Where do you get the idea that motorists & cyclists are a different
    > species?

    By reading this group, no doubt!

    Clearly not as many of have stated here many times that we are both
    cyclists and motorists.

    Quoted message said:
  9. Matt B said:
    LSMike said:
    Matt B said:

    Merely commenting on some sanctimonious letters we were referred to at
    the top of this thread, one of which sought to imply that cyclists
    somehow paid their way.

    It seems you're implying that cyclists don't pay their way. What
    exactly is it that they don't pay for?

    How much do cyclists compulsorily pay, which they /only/ pay because
    they /are/ cyclists, and which they wouldn't pay if they weren't
    cyclists for *anything*?

    --
    Matt B

    You've asked the wrong question - tell me who doesn't pay towards the
    roads. Well, unless we count your hidden agenda that is. You've also
    failed to answer my original question.

  10. jtaylor said:

    The troll "Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    LSMike wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It seems you're implying that cyclists don't pay their way. What
    exactly is it that they don't pay for?

    How much do cyclists compulsorily pay, which they /only/ pay because
    they /are/ cyclists, and which they wouldn't pay if they weren't
    cyclists for *anything*?

    So, what exactly is it that they don't pay for?

    You name it, they don't pay for it - because they pay nothing for being
    cyclists.

    --
    Matt B

  11. Matt B said:

    Ah, you've moved on to the problem of the abysmal motorway
    infrastructure now. Well, if we could raise more tax, a windfall tax on
    cyclists perhaps, as recompense for 100+ years of free facilities, we
    could start improving things there a bit too :-)

    you really are a troll, nobody else would make such a stupid remark in
    a cycling ng, especially one frequented by so many drivers of vehicles
    as well.

    New Year's resolution urc'ers to stop feeding him (hard though it is)?

  12. jtaylor said:

    The troll "Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >>It seems you're implying that cyclists don't pay their way. What
    >>exactly is it that they don't pay for?

    Quoted message said:

    No, I'm just stating a fact about cyclists. I'm not suggesting cyclists
    /should/ pay more either ,just pointing out that they don't, whereas
    motorists do.

    Why bother pointing it out, then?

    Read the thread, at least one of the letters was suggesting that they do.

    --
    Matt B

  13. MartinM said:


    New Year's resolution urc'ers to stop feeding him (hard though it is)?

    No need, there's only about four of you left feeding him and you are the
    main feeder at the moment. The rest of us stopped or kill filed him
    ages ago.

    --
    Tony

    "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
    right."
    - Lord Hailsham

  14. Tony Raven said:
    MartinM said:


    New Year's resolution urc'ers to stop feeding him (hard though it is)?

    No need, there's only about four of you left feeding him and you are the
    main feeder at the moment. The rest of us stopped or kill filed him
    ages ago.

    ahh the joys of a newsreader (back on GG after it has improved
    immeasurably). FWIW I got fed up with clearing a billion uk.railway
    posts every week off mine, and always had to keep going back to GG to
    find the original threads.

  15. LSMike said:
    Matt B said:
    LSMike said:

    Matt B wrote:

    >Merely commenting on some sanctimonious letters we were referred to at
    >the top of this thread, one of which sought to imply that cyclists
    >somehow paid their way.

    It seems you're implying that cyclists don't pay their way. What
    exactly is it that they don't pay for?

    How much do cyclists compulsorily pay, which they /only/ pay because
    they /are/ cyclists, and which they wouldn't pay if they weren't
    cyclists for *anything*?

    You've asked the wrong question

    What is the /right/ question then?

    Quoted message said:

    - tell me who doesn't pay towards the
    roads.

    Only the very few who pay /no/ tax at all.

    Quoted message said:

    Well, unless we count your hidden agenda that is.

    Which is what, in your opinion?

    Quoted message said:

    You've also
    failed to answer my original question.

    In what way is my answer unsatisfactory?

    --
    Matt B

  16. Matt B said:
    LSMike said:
    Matt B said:

    LSMike wrote:

    >Matt B wrote:
    >
    >>Merely commenting on some sanctimonious letters we were referred to at
    >>the top of this thread, one of which sought to imply that cyclists
    >>somehow paid their way.
    >
    >It seems you're implying that cyclists don't pay their way. What
    >exactly is it that they don't pay for?

    How much do cyclists compulsorily pay, which they /only/ pay because
    they /are/ cyclists, and which they wouldn't pay if they weren't
    cyclists for *anything*?

    You've asked the wrong question

    What is the /right/ question then?

    See my post, it should be obvious and is stated there.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    - tell me who doesn't pay towards the
    roads.

    Only the very few who pay /no/ tax at all.

    So the bit where you wrote:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quoted message said:

    Merely commenting on some sanctimonious letters we were referred to at
    the top of this thread, one of which sought to imply that cyclists
    somehow paid their way."


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Is completely and utterly wrong. You've now admitted that cyclists do
    pay their way on the roads.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Well, unless we count your hidden agenda that is.

    Which is what, in your opinion?

    I think you're pro-car and anti-cyclist, and to me it comes across in
    nearly every post you make. I don't understand your apparent hostility
    towards cyclists TBH.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You've also
    failed to answer my original question.

    In what way is my answer unsatisfactory?

    You avoided answering how you thought cyclists don't pay their way
    [implication: roads], and in your last post you now admit that they
    actually do pay their own way. It seems self-contradictory to me.

    Quoted message said:


    --
    Matt B

  17. LSMike said:
    Matt B said:
    LSMike said:

    Matt B wrote:

    >LSMike wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Matt B wrote:
    >>
    >>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    - tell me who doesn't pay towards the
    roads.

    Only the very few who pay /no/ tax at all.

    So the bit where you wrote:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quoted message said:

    Merely commenting on some sanctimonious letters we were referred to at
    the top of this thread, one of which sought to imply that cyclists
    somehow paid their way."

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Is completely and utterly wrong. You've now admitted that cyclists do
    pay their way on the roads.

    No isn't, and no I haven't. "Paying towards" and "paying their way" are
    very different indeed.

    Anyone who pays tax automatically "pays towards", it doesn't mean they
    pay a fair share. Motorists, drinkers and smokers pay tax over and
    above "paying their way".

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Well, unless we count your hidden agenda that is.

    Which is what, in your opinion?

    I think you're pro-car and anti-cyclist, and to me it comes across in
    nearly every post you make. I don't understand your apparent hostility
    towards cyclists TBH.

    Wrong. I'm pro equal treatment of /all/ road users - tax wise,
    insurance wise, law wise, traceability wise and rights wise. Whether
    that means abolishing taxes, number plates, compulsory insurance and
    other and "special" treatments for motorists, or introducing it for
    other classes of user is the debate.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You've also
    failed to answer my original question.

    In what way is my answer unsatisfactory?

    You avoided answering how you thought cyclists don't pay their way
    [implication: roads], and in your last post you now admit that they
    actually do pay their own way. It seems self-contradictory to me.

    No, read it again.

    --
    Matt B

  18. Matt B said:

    Wrong. I'm pro equal treatment of /all/ road users - tax wise,
    insurance wise, law wise, traceability wise and rights wise. Whether
    that means abolishing taxes, number plates, compulsory insurance and
    other and "special" treatments for motorists, or introducing it for
    other classes of user is the debate.

    What you are missing is the principle of proportionality. This requires
    that those who have the greatest potential to cause harm or who have
    historically been harm causers, would require stricter regulation. And
    those who require more expensive facilities should pay proportionately
    for them.

    Looking up the relevant cost estimates for road building, a road
    suitable for cycles/horses costs about 5.000 pounds per km, excluding
    ground costs. A single carriageway A-road costs about 2 million per km.

    Proportionately that would be a VED for cycles of 1 pound per year,
    which would probably cost around 15 pounds per cycle per year to
    collect, plus the associated problems linked to cycle recycling.

    The cost of cycle induced injuries is even more skewed in favour of the
    cyclist. Excluding deaths/injuries to the operator, the ratio of costs
    incurred is in excess of 1/1000. Requiring an average cycle insurance
    policy of around 3-4 pounds a year for third party cover.

    You may quibble about number of miles travelled, but these costs are
    purely on existence of the vehicle and there are approximately the same
    number of bikes and motor vehicles on the road.

    In conclusion, from a social point of view, it is not worth collecting
    specific taxes from cyclists.

    As regards identification, cars are essentially anonymous as, with a
    small numebr of exceptions, they look very much like every other car of
    that model. Cyclists on the other hand are identified as people. There
    may be tens of thousands of a particualr make and colour of car in a
    region, but an individual pedestrian or cyclist is easier to trace
    because they are generally local and identifiable as people.

    Extending identification plates to cycles would be a bureaucratic
    nonsense, costing more to deliver than the saving to society. It ranks
    up there with branding all citizens so they can be identified on CCTV.
    NI number branded on all clothing so that my kids can be identified as
    they walk dowwn the street? No option to borrow a coat as it has the
    wrong number on it.

    Once again Matt B's ideas lack proportionality and have a skewed idea
    of 'fair share' that is far removed from socially appropriate.

    ...d

  19. "Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote in

    Quoted message said:
    DavidR said:

    "Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    DavidR wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >Where do you get the idea that motorists & cyclists are a different
    >species?

    Where do /you/ get the idea that I've got that idea?

    Because you talk about the unfairness of "motorists" paying tax and
    "cyclists" not.

    That's right, it /is/ unfair.

    No, it could only be unfair if people were forced against their better
    judgement to have a car.
    But what are we talking about - the tax on motoring or the distinction
    between cycling & motoring?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I am a person that has been offered a choice to make some of my journeys
    free of tax.

    And why should motorists pay tax to be such then? Are motorists better
    paid than anyone else? Is it only the wealthy who rely on cars?

    No, the individual makes the judgement on whether the benefit of the car
    outweighs the cost.

    I have made the judgement on a car and decided it is worth it. Now, I
    should like to own an aeroplane. Should I go out and buy one before
    deciding that it is somebody else's fault that I can't afford it?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Some people choose not to use it and then complain about it.

    Some of the more privileged may have the choice. Surely those with more
    choices should pay more taxes for the luxury.

    What? Only the privileged can afford to ride a bike?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's whingeing, not unfairness.

    What is - not having any realistic option?

    Many people doing the whinging *do* have realistic options!

  20. David Martin said:
    Matt B said:

    Wrong. I'm pro equal treatment of /all/ road users - tax wise,
    insurance wise, law wise, traceability wise and rights wise. Whether
    that means abolishing taxes, number plates, compulsory insurance and
    other and "special" treatments for motorists, or introducing it for
    other classes of user is the debate.

    What you are missing is the principle of proportionality. This requires
    that those who have the greatest potential to cause harm or who have
    historically been harm causers, would require stricter regulation. And
    those who require more expensive facilities should pay proportionately
    for them.

    Why though should that principle only apply to motoring and /no/ other
    activity bar smoking and drinking?

    Even if it /were/ proportional that would be a start. As it is it free,
    unless in a motor.

    --
    Matt B

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