Tied and Soldered

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 08:27:24 +0100, Lou Holtman

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 22:45:39 +0100, Lou Holtman
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> [email hidden] wrote:
>> Carl Fogel writes:
> snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.
> Judging from the last 1000 posts from Carl he is living in the past. He
> must be getting old so have patience with him ;-). No one is tying and
> soldering spokes anymore today so there is nothing to discuss.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Lou

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dear Lou,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jobst's testing of tied and soldered spokes did show that there was no
effect, but that hasn't stopped people in Europe from doing it:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=r...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

You are amazing Carl, digging up all this stuff ;-). How does tying and
soldering help keep a wheel straight when a spoke breaks like the
caption say?

Quoted message said:

Lou

Dear Lou,

The management does not endorse the opinions expressed by the
photographer in that link.

But the management might get pretty desperate, too, if it was rolling
over cobblestones at such speeds.

The management doesn't actually do much digging. It's more just filing
under favorites.

Here, for example, is a really desperate 8-cross wheel,
tied-and-soldered at the 7th cross, with the first crossing spoke
partly covering the crossed spoke's head at the hub:
http://i2.tinypic.com/5xq520p.jpg

Imagine lacing up that ~80-spoke 8-cross beast and then tying and
soldering all those crossings. It's no wonder that safety bicycles
with their itty-bitty wheels and their low spoke-counts wiped out the
highwheelers.

The 8-cross from another angle:

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_cb...

A similar tangent laced hub from the same company with tying and
soldering:

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_cb...

Here are some more typical highwheeler lacings, radial with what were
called nutted spokes, from the same site:

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_am...

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_am...

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_am...

Radial lacing was quite popular until the highwheelers vanished.

Three radials and a fourth tangent with tied-and-soldered spokes on a
site with lots and lots of pictures of the details:

http://www.hochrad.info/hochradseite/hochradbasic/hochrad%20allerlei%...

Radial wheels were strong enough, tying and soldering probably made no
real difference, there were some patent issues about using tangent
spoke lacing, and radials were much simpler to build. Even with
spokecalc, I'd hate to try to calculate spoke lengths for a 54-inch
8-cross on the monster-wide hub and narrow rim of a highwheeler--it
must have been tricky with nothing but pencils and paper.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Are there any contemporary wheel building manuals which say when in
the process these spokes were tied? From a manufacturing perspective,
I can almost see that 8 cross wheel being tied as the spokes were
being put into the hub to keep them from flopping around and tangling
up before the rim got put on. Maybe it was easier to solder the ties
and call them a feature than to cut them off at the end. And the
lengths probably weren't calculated. It would be faster to just prop
up the hub and rim on the work bench and measure directly.

On 2008-02-10, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

Are there any contemporary wheel building manuals which say when in
the process these spokes were tied? From a manufacturing perspective,
I can almost see that 8 cross wheel being tied as the spokes were
being put into the hub to keep them from flopping around and tangling
up before the rim got put on.

Does anyone put all the spokes in before putting the rim on? I put the
spokes in one at a time and attach each one to the rim before putting
the next one.

Quoted message said:

Are there any contemporary wheel building manuals which say when in
the process these spokes were tied? From a manufacturing perspective,
I can almost see that 8 cross wheel being tied as the spokes were
being put into the hub to keep them from flopping around and tangling
up before the rim got put on. Maybe it was easier to solder the ties
and call them a feature than to cut them off at the end. And the
lengths probably weren't calculated. It would be faster to just prop
up the hub and rim on the work bench and measure directly.

Dear U,

I'd love to find a pre-1900 wheel-building manuals like Sheldon's
page:
http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Alas, there may not have been any how-to manuals for highwheelers. The
only material that seems to have survived is catalogs.

***

Rideable Bicycle Replicas has some old catalog reprints:
http://www.hiwheel.com/antique_catalog_reprints/index.htm

Here's a sample of from a Rudge highwheeler catalog:
http://www.hiwheel.com/antique_catalog_reprints/rudge_bike.htm

***

You can get $5 CDs from the Wheelmen with scans of old bicycle
catalogs, according to a post in the middle of this thread:
http://www.thewheelmen.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1412

But only four of the catalogs are pre-1890 and possibly late
highwheeler material.

***

The Pedaling History site has lots of books, but you have to go
through each section to find things:

http://dev1.boomersdomain.com/cgi-bin/store_pedalinghistory_2/index.html

Here's a shameless ad that I posted for "Bicycles of the Year 1877,"
which is dense text and diagrams of the 50 hottest rides at the
beginning of the the highwheeler era:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/8c32416698dc2ea5

It was well worth the $5.25 plus shipping.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

may have said:

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html

Quoted message said:

Werehatrack said:

In the photos of the hub, the problem is obvious; they made the inner
surface of the hub flat instead of using a wavy flange that would have
properly spaced the all-inner spokes. (Note that they knew they had a
problem; alternate spoke holes are counterbored to allow the
doubly-inner spokes to sit inboard of the singly-inner ones...but in
doing so, they insured that the spoke's bent end is supported only
next to the head, and not near the elbow.

-snip-

jim beam said:

actually, i think you'll find that one spoke has a short elbow that is
snug[ish] against the flange, and its crossing neighbor has a long
elbow. and the short ones happen to be the ones that resist braking
force the most, so in both respects, fatigue is recognized as an issue
and mitigated to some extent.
now let's wait for our resident expert to deny or claim he knew about
this all along.

I see spokes which are identical; the countersinks for the heads have
alternate depth. I could be wrong on that but take another look.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

Are there any contemporary wheel building manuals which say when in
the process these spokes were tied? From a manufacturing perspective,
I can almost see that 8 cross wheel being tied as the spokes were
being put into the hub to keep them from flopping around and tangling
up before the rim got put on.

Ben C said:

Does anyone put all the spokes in before putting the rim on? I put the
spokes in one at a time and attach each one to the rim before putting
the next one.

I do too but the fastest builders (by a lot!) are the factory builders
who begin with a 'loaded' hub, all spokes in and gathered into two bunches.
Even among us one-spoke-at-a-time builders, some do all the inside
spokes on one flange first, other builders work in adjacent pairs. It
matters not; whichever style suits you, the result is identical.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Lou Holtman said:

Quoted message said:

Lou Holtman said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> Carl Fogel writes:
snip

> You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.
Judging from the last 1000 posts from Carl he is living in the past. He
must be getting old so have patience with him ;-). No one is tying and
soldering spokes anymore today so there is nothing to discuss.

Lou

Dear Lou,

Jobst's testing of tied and soldered spokes did show that there was no
effect, but that hasn't stopped people in Europe from doing it:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=roubaix_bikes1/IMG_0003

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

You are amazing Carl, digging up all this stuff ;-). How does tying and
soldering help keep a wheel straight when a spoke breaks like the
caption say?

Lou

Dear Lou,

Like Jobst, I don't see how tying and soldering works. There seems to
be some recent disagreement among those who think that it does work.

Apparently, it only works on the rear wheel:

"The Phonak machines were to roll out on 36-spoke DT rims and hubs
(front and rear, tied and soldered at the rear so that the wheel will
remain true in the event of a spoke breakage) . . ."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/apr05/roubaix05/tech/?id=phonak

In fact, the photo shows that it works on only one _side_ of the rear
wheel:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/apr05/roubaix05/tech/?id=phonak/L1000202

Oops! It works on both sides of the front wheel:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/PRGW/front2_gwdsc00027

Or on sprint bikes:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2002/tradeshows02/?id=eicma02/TMreport

Or on spare bikes:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/PRGW/front2_gwdsc00019

I wonder how many other bikes at Paris-Roubaix have their spokes
lashed together?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

as well as where it still makes sense, performing its original purpose:

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

I'll ask a third time.

Will you please post a pre-1900 reference that supports your theory
about the original purpose of tying and soldering?

All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped spoke
rattling.

I can't find _any_ reference to your theory in technical books,
bicycling histories, or reminiscences by riders.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped spoke
rattling.

It also helps the sound of the baseball cards resonate much more
fully.

Quoted message said:

Are there any contemporary wheel building manuals which say when in
the process these spokes were tied? From a manufacturing perspective,
I can almost see that 8 cross wheel being tied as the spokes were
being put into the hub to keep them from flopping around and tangling
up before the rim got put on. Maybe it was easier to solder the ties
and call them a feature than to cut them off at the end. And the
lengths probably weren't calculated. It would be faster to just prop
up the hub and rim on the work bench and measure directly.

Dear U,

I just stumbled across this pathetically familiar plea in the 1889
"English Mechanic and World of Science":

"Can anyone tell me of a speedy way of finding the exact length of
spokes required to build up a bicycle wheel? Also how to tap the same,
so that when screwed in hub [old-fashioned spokes screwed into the hub
instead of using an elbow] no thread will be visible outside? There
must be some other way than measuring from an approximate centre. I
have sometimes lost a week, and my temper as well, trying to find
length of spokes for 30in. wheels [30 to 34 inch wheels were common]
by this method." -- A.F. Shakespear, Dreseden

http://books.google.com/books?id=NHcAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA335&dq=bicycle+spokes+solder&lr=&as_brr=0

He was first advised to make a full-size paper diagram and measure it:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NHcAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA335&dq=bicycle+spokes+solder&lr=&as_brr=0#PPA376

More detailed advice followed, from an experienced wheel-builder:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NHcAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA335&dq=bicycle+spokes+solder&lr=&as_brr=0#PPA376,M1

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

still just me said:

Quoted message said:

All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped spoke
rattling.

It also helps the sound of the baseball cards resonate much more
fully.

Dear SJM,

Please, let's use proper bicycle cards:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mando_gal/sets/72157601929168452/

The John Player cigarette cards in the Cycling series were mostly
painted from photographs of old bicycles, 1839-1939.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Carl Fogel said:

Quoted message said:

as well as where it still makes sense, performing its original
purpose:

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html

Quoted message said:

I'll ask a third time.

Quoted message said:

Will you please post a pre-1900 reference that supports your theory
about the original purpose of tying and soldering?

I'm sorry, I don't have that reference. At the time when I read it, I
thought it so obvious and simple that I didn't save the location of
that subject. All I can find now, is that James Starley introduced
cross-laced spoking in 1878 (pp 95 "King of the Road"😉. I perused
parts of that book to see if I could find the tying spokes together
but found no reference to it at all.

Quoted message said:

All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped
spoke rattling.

Well that's false because cross-laced spokes don't rattle either
interlaced or not. I think that comes from folks who didn't visualize
what occurred with long radial spoke failure. That's why the
motorcycle web site is interesting.

Quoted message said:

I can't find _any_ reference to your theory in technical books,
bicycling histories, or reminiscences by riders.

There are practically no "technical" books on bicycles from those
days. Most of what exists about it is myth and lore, or a recount of
history. The historic ones leaving to the reader an interpretation of
why and how things were done. How else could a book about the wire
spoked wheel be the first in print more than 100 years after the first
use of such wheels?

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel said:

Quoted message said:

as well as where it still makes sense, performing its original
purpose:

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html

Quoted message said:

I'll ask a third time.

Quoted message said:

Will you please post a pre-1900 reference that supports your theory
about the original purpose of tying and soldering?

I'm sorry, I don't have that reference. At the time when I read it, I
thought it so obvious and simple that I didn't save the location of
that subject. All I can find now, is that James Starley introduced
cross-laced spoking in 1878 (pp 95 "King of the Road"😉. I perused
parts of that book to see if I could find the tying spokes together
but found no reference to it at all.

Quoted message said:

All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped
spoke rattling.

Well that's false because cross-laced spokes don't rattle either
interlaced or not. I think that comes from folks who didn't visualize
what occurred with long radial spoke failure. That's why the
motorcycle web site is interesting.

Quoted message said:

I can't find _any_ reference to your theory in technical books,
bicycling histories, or reminiscences by riders.

There are practically no "technical" books on bicycles from those
days. Most of what exists about it is myth and lore, or a recount of
history. The historic ones leaving to the reader an interpretation of
why and how things were done. How else could a book about the wire
spoked wheel be the first in print more than 100 years after the first
use of such wheels?

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

There are plenty of references to tying and soldering before 1900.

I can't find any that mention the safety theory that you think is
obvious.

There are plenty of references to crashes before 1900.

I can't find any that mention broken spokes causing crashes.

There are plenty of explicit references to tying and soldering to
strengthen spokes before 1900.

As for the rattling that you claim is impossible . . .

In "Collecting & Restoring Antique Bicycles," G. Donald Adams writes
on page 61 about how the 1887 New Light Mail Roadster differed from an
1882 Columbia in various ways, one of which was:

"Tangent spokes were used and were tied where they crossed to prvent
rattles."

I think that G. Donald Adams, who owns and rides such highwheelers,
knows more about them than you do.

I also think that Peter Gendron, whose Gendron Bicycle Company
manufactured highwheelers, knew more about them than you do. Gendron's
1890 patent, which I've quoted previously in this thread, just like
the Adams comment on rattling, explicitly states that the tying and
soldering prevented spoke rattling:

"The advantage of this improvement [Gendron put spokes into the hub in
some odd way] consists in thereby accomplishing the result of causing
the two spokes at their point of crossing to bind each other . . .
[yes, they all wrote like this] . . . the tension of the spokes being
sufficient to completely effect this result, so that the spokes will
not rattle when the wheel is in motion. The same object is
accomplished with the present construction of wheel by winding or
tying the spokes at their point of crossing with small wire; but in
practice this is very annoying in different ways--as, for instance, in
cleaning the wheels or in replacing the spokes."

http://www.google.com/patents?id=NIdaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=434146#PPP2,M1

Please stop claiming that you think that you remember something that
you can't find and sneering at actual contemporary references as
something for "true believers." It's as bad as arguing that your
personal recollections should be included on Wikipedia.

And please stop coming up with new claims that people like G. Donald
Adams and Peter Gendron can't hear spokes rattling. It only shows that
you aren't reading what's been posted in this thread.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Carl Fogel said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> as well as where it still makes sense, performing its original
> purpose:

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'll ask a third time. about the original purpose of tying and
soldering?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm sorry, I don't have that reference. At the time when I read it, I
thought it so obvious and simple that I didn't save the location of
that subject. All I can find now, is that James Starley introduced
cross-laced spoking in 1878 (pp 95 "King of the Road"😉. I perused
parts of that book to see if I could find the tying spokes together
but found no reference to it at all.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped
spoke rattling.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well that's false because cross-laced spokes don't rattle either
interlaced or not. I think that comes from folks who didn't
visualize what occurred with long radial spoke failure. That's why
the motorcycle web site is interesting.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can't find _any_ reference to your theory in technical books,
bicycling histories, or reminiscences by riders.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are practically no "technical" books on bicycles from those
days. Most of what exists about it is myth and lore, or a recount
of history. The historic ones leaving to the reader an
interpretation of why and how things were done. How else could a
book about the wire spoked wheel be the first in print more than
100 years after the first use of such wheels?

Quoted message said:

There are plenty of references to tying and soldering before 1900.

I think that sentence is a non-sequitur. I am pointing out that there
are no technical books on such things and that the ones there are, are
about history or anecdotes, such as rattling spokes. You ought to
look at spoked wheels closely and explain how spokes can rattle if the
wheel is not falling apart. For that occurrence, wire ties are a
cover-up, not a fix.

Quoted message said:

I can't find any that mention the safety theory that you think is
obvious.

Well you can't find any references to spoke length calculations or
stress distribution in wheels either. Unless you want to question my
credibility about having read why James Starley went to cross laced
spoking on high wheelers, you might give the concept some thought. I
read it and recognized its value to the bicyclist of the day. The
triumph motorcycle pictures bring that to the present. I hope it is
apparent from the Triumph newsgroup that their spokes are tied for the
same reason, not for strength or rattling.

Quoted message said:

There are plenty of references to crashes before 1900.

Quoted message said:

I can't find any that mention broken spokes causing crashes.

Well, I did and it is obvious, considering that tying spokes has no
other valid reason; something that was not believed until I wrote
about it.

Quoted message said:

There are plenty of explicit references to tying and soldering to
strengthen spokes before 1900.

Yes? And they are all BS, although in print. You are ready to
question practically anything you read here but not what was written
long ago and since disproven.

As I pointed out, Starley introduced crossed spoking in 1878 on high
wheelers that vanished as a mainline of bicycles shortly after. I'm
sure you can find that reference as well.

Quoted message said:

As for the rattling that you claim is impossible...

Quoted message said:

In "Collecting & Restoring Antique Bicycles," G. Donald Adams writes
on page 61 about how the 1887 New Light Mail Roadster differed from
an 1882 Columbia in various ways, one of which was:

Quoted message said:

"Tangent spokes were used and were tied where they crossed to
prevent rattles."

So, lots of BS has been written in bicycle journals. Just because he
got it into print doesn't make it so. Maybe you can explain how
spokes rattle, I can't... unless they don't remain tensioned in use.

Quoted message said:

I think that G. Donald Adams, who owns and rides such highwheelers,
knows more about them than you do.

You're getting close. ...pants on fire, etc.

Quoted message said:

I also think that Peter Gendron, whose Gendron Bicycle Company
manufactured highwheelers, knew more about them than you do.
Gendron's 1890 patent, which I've quoted previously in this thread,
just like the Adams comment on rattling, explicitly states that the
tying and soldering prevented spoke rattling:

Quoted message said:

"The advantage of this improvement [Gendron put spokes into the hub
in some odd way] consists in thereby accomplishing the result of
causing the two spokes at their point of crossing to bind each
other... [yes, they all wrote like this]... the tension of the
spokes being sufficient to completely effect this result, so that
the spokes will not rattle when the wheel is in motion. The same
object is accomplished with the present construction of wheel by
winding or tying the spokes at their point of crossing with small
wire; but in practice this is very annoying in different ways--as,
for instance, in cleaning the wheels or in replacing the spokes."

http://www.google.com/patents?id=NIdaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=434146#PPP2,M1

Quoted message said:

Please stop claiming that you think that you remember something that
you can't find and sneering at actual contemporary references as
something for "true believers." It's as bad as arguing that your
personal recollections should be included on Wikipedia.

You shouldn't wonder how some Carl Fogel threads get going. Although
you don't use the rude epithets of some contributors, you make up for
it by direct attack on contributor's veracity. Just state your
beliefs on th matter and let it be. Your style is like a chameleon,
when you first appeared on this newsgroup, you wrote rebuttals to
peoples posts with rhetorical questions that questioned veracity,
never giving a direct opinion of your own. Then there was the
in-between times that vacillated and now it's writers veracity. It
sounds much like jb's alter ego at work.

Quoted message said:

And please stop coming up with new claims that people like G. Donald
Adams and Peter Gendron can't hear spokes rattling. It only shows
that you aren't reading what's been posted in this thread.

I've read many misplaced beliefs in bicycle publications in the last
50 years and don't believe that some of their claims are as incredible
now as they were then. THey are what inspired me to write "the
Bicycle Wheel". Yes, I have heard spokes rattle, but they were were
so loose that some of the spoke nipples could be turned by hand. I
don't advise tying and soldering spoke crossings as a remedy for that.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

I see nothing cheery in what you wrote, but that sign-off is better
than smileys, or are the passé?

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel writes:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are plenty of references to crashes before 1900.

Quoted message said:

I can't find any that mention broken spokes causing crashes.

Well, I did . . .

[snip]

Dear Jobst,

Please share with us a link to whatever you found about a pre-1900
broken spoke causing a crash.

If you don't have a source, please quit being silly.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

aka Jobst Brandt said:

Carl Fogel said:

Quoted message said:

>> as well as where it still makes sense, performing its original
>> purpose:

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I'll ask a third time. about the original purpose of tying and
> soldering?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm sorry, I don't have that reference. At the time when I read it, I
thought it so obvious and simple that I didn't save the location of
that subject. All I can find now, is that James Starley introduced
cross-laced spoking in 1878 (pp 95 "King of the Road"😉. I perused
parts of that book to see if I could find the tying spokes together
but found no reference to it at all.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
> thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped
> spoke rattling.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well that's false because cross-laced spokes don't rattle either
interlaced or not. I think that comes from folks who didn't
visualize what occurred with long radial spoke failure. That's why
the motorcycle web site is interesting.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I can't find _any_ reference to your theory in technical books,
> bicycling histories, or reminiscences by riders.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are practically no "technical" books on bicycles from those
days. Most of what exists about it is myth and lore, or a recount
of history. The historic ones leaving to the reader an
interpretation of why and how things were done. How else could a
book about the wire spoked wheel be the first in print more than
100 years after the first use of such wheels?

Quoted message said:

There are plenty of references to tying and soldering before 1900.

I think that sentence is a non-sequitur. I am pointing out that there
are no technical books on such things and that the ones there are, are
about history or anecdotes, such as rattling spokes. You ought to
look at spoked wheels closely and explain how spokes can rattle if the
wheel is not falling apart. For that occurrence, wire ties are a
cover-up, not a fix.

Quoted message said:

I can't find any that mention the safety theory that you think is
obvious.

Well you can't find any references to spoke length calculations or
stress distribution in wheels either. Unless you want to question my
credibility about having read why James Starley went to cross laced
spoking on high wheelers, you might give the concept some thought. I
read it and recognized its value to the bicyclist of the day. The
triumph motorcycle pictures bring that to the present. I hope it is
apparent from the Triumph newsgroup that their spokes are tied for the
same reason, not for strength or rattling.

Quoted message said:

There are plenty of references to crashes before 1900.

Quoted message said:

I can't find any that mention broken spokes causing crashes.

Well, I did and it is obvious, considering that tying spokes has no
other valid reason; something that was not believed until I wrote
about it.

Quoted message said:

There are plenty of explicit references to tying and soldering to
strengthen spokes before 1900.

Yes? And they are all BS, although in print. You are ready to
question practically anything you read here but not what was written
long ago and since disproven.

As I pointed out, Starley introduced crossed spoking in 1878 on high
wheelers that vanished as a mainline of bicycles shortly after. I'm
sure you can find that reference as well.

Quoted message said:

As for the rattling that you claim is impossible...

Quoted message said:

In "Collecting & Restoring Antique Bicycles," G. Donald Adams writes
on page 61 about how the 1887 New Light Mail Roadster differed from
an 1882 Columbia in various ways, one of which was:

Quoted message said:

"Tangent spokes were used and were tied where they crossed to
prevent rattles."

So, lots of BS has been written in bicycle journals. Just because he
got it into print doesn't make it so. Maybe you can explain how
spokes rattle, I can't... unless they don't remain tensioned in use.

Quoted message said:

I think that G. Donald Adams, who owns and rides such highwheelers,
knows more about them than you do.

You're getting close. ...pants on fire, etc.

Quoted message said:

I also think that Peter Gendron, whose Gendron Bicycle Company
manufactured highwheelers, knew more about them than you do.
Gendron's 1890 patent, which I've quoted previously in this thread,
just like the Adams comment on rattling, explicitly states that the
tying and soldering prevented spoke rattling:

Quoted message said:

"The advantage of this improvement [Gendron put spokes into the hub
in some odd way] consists in thereby accomplishing the result of
causing the two spokes at their point of crossing to bind each
other... [yes, they all wrote like this]... the tension of the
spokes being sufficient to completely effect this result, so that
the spokes will not rattle when the wheel is in motion. The same
object is accomplished with the present construction of wheel by
winding or tying the spokes at their point of crossing with small
wire; but in practice this is very annoying in different ways--as,
for instance, in cleaning the wheels or in replacing the spokes."

http://www.google.com/patents?id=NIdaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=434146#PPP2,M1

Quoted message said:

Please stop claiming that you think that you remember something that
you can't find and sneering at actual contemporary references as
something for "true believers." It's as bad as arguing that your
personal recollections should be included on Wikipedia.

You shouldn't wonder how some Carl Fogel threads get going. Although
you don't use the rude epithets of some contributors, you make up for
it by direct attack on contributor's veracity. Just state your
beliefs on th matter and let it be. Your style is like a chameleon,
when you first appeared on this newsgroup, you wrote rebuttals to
peoples posts with rhetorical questions that questioned veracity,
never giving a direct opinion of your own. Then there was the
in-between times that vacillated and now it's writers veracity. It
sounds much like jb's alter ego at work.

"Dear Carl" questioning someone's veracity? Say it ain't so!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And please stop coming up with new claims that people like G. Donald
Adams and Peter Gendron can't hear spokes rattling. It only shows
that you aren't reading what's been posted in this thread.

I've read many misplaced beliefs in bicycle publications in the last
50 years and don't believe that some of their claims are as incredible
now as they were then. THey are what inspired me to write "the
Bicycle Wheel". Yes, I have heard spokes rattle, but they were were
so loose that some of the spoke nipples could be turned by hand. I
don't advise tying and soldering spoke crossings as a remedy for that.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

I see nothing cheery in what you wrote, but that sign-off is better
than smileys, or are the[y] passé?

The ending smiley emoticon on an otherwise unpleasant post was a Mark
Hickey specialty.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On 2008-02-12, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

You ought to look at spoked wheels closely and explain how spokes can
rattle if the wheel is not falling apart. For that occurrence, wire
ties are a cover-up, not a fix.

The discussion wasn't really about whether wheels can rattle or not,
just whether that's what people _thought_ would happen if they didn't
tie and solder.

But the question of actual rattling is just as interesting.

What's the typical spoke tension in an 80-spoke highwheeler?

I would have thought it would have to be quite low or you'd be putting a
lot of hoop stress on the rim. So they might go slack occasionally while
riding along.

But even if they don't go slack, with such long spokes, a given change
in tension produces a greater length change than in a shorter spoke, and
there are also 7 or 8 possible crossings for the spokes to rattle at. So
rattling seems quite a believable possibility.

Ben C? said:

Quoted message said:

You ought to look at spoked wheels closely and explain how spokes
can rattle if the wheel is not falling apart. For that occurrence,
wire ties are a cover-up, not a fix.

Quoted message said:

The discussion wasn't really about whether wheels can rattle or not,
just whether that's what people _thought_ would happen if they
didn't tie and solder.

Soldering wire ties came later on the "safety bicycle" on which the
hazard of failed spokes no longer existed and the wheel strengthening
ploy needed credibility.

Quoted message said:

But the question of actual rattling is just as interesting.

Quoted message said:

What's the typical spoke tension in an 80-spoke highwheeler?

Quoted message said:

I would have thought it would have to be quite low or you'd be
putting a lot of hoop stress on the rim. So they might go slack
occasionally while riding along.

Quoted message said:

But even if they don't go slack, with such long spokes, a given
change in tension produces a greater length change than in a shorter
spoke, and there are also 7 or 8 possible crossings for the spokes
to rattle at. So rattling seems quite a believable possibility.

Hold the phone. High-wheelers were radially spoked until Starley
cross laced them in order to tie their spokes together. Therefore,
let's not place the cart before the horse.

http://pardo.net/bike/pic/wheel/001.html

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Ben C? writes:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But the question of actual rattling is just as interesting.

Quoted message said:

What's the typical spoke tension in an 80-spoke highwheeler?

Quoted message said:

I would have thought it would have to be quite low or you'd be
putting a lot of hoop stress on the rim. So they might go slack
occasionally while riding along.

Quoted message said:

But even if they don't go slack, with such long spokes, a given
change in tension produces a greater length change than in a shorter
spoke, and there are also 7 or 8 possible crossings for the spokes
to rattle at. So rattling seems quite a believable possibility.

Hold the phone. High-wheelers were radially spoked until Starley
cross laced them in order to tie their spokes together. Therefore,
let's not place the cart before the horse.

You're starting to remind me of Tony Blair. When asked the perfectly
reasonable question, if they don't find any evidence of WMD would you be
up for invading Iraq anyway, he just blathered about the "irrelevance"
of "hypothetical" questions...

Hypothetically then, do you think the spokes might rattle on an un-tied
and un-soldered tangentially-spoked high-wheeler? Not a rhetorical
question, I really don't know.

Quoted message said:

Soldering wire ties came later on the "safety bicycle" on which the
hazard of failed spokes no longer existed and the wheel strengthening
ploy needed credibility.

Dear Jobst,

Are you just making this stuff up as you go along? You seem more and
more confused about the chronology and the details.

I've posted plenty of pictures of tied and soldered highwheelers.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Ben C? said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But the question of actual rattling is just as interesting.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What's the typical spoke tension in an 80-spoke highwheeler?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would have thought it would have to be quite low or you'd be
putting a lot of hoop stress on the rim. So they might go slack
occasionally while riding along.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But even if they don't go slack, with such long spokes, a given
change in tension produces a greater length change than in a
shorter spoke, and there are also 7 or 8 possible crossings for
the spokes to rattle at. So rattling seems quite a believable
possibility.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hold the phone. High-wheelers were radially spoked until Starley
cross laced them in order to tie their spokes together. Therefore,
let's not place the cart before the horse.

Quoted message said:

You're starting to remind me of Tony Blair. When asked the perfectly
reasonable question, if they don't find any evidence of WMD would
you be up for invading Iraq anyway, he just blathered about the
"irrelevance" of "hypothetical" questions...

I don't see what is hypothetical about what I wrote although your
question fits that description. "Can't we just get along?"

Quoted message said:

Hypothetically then, do you think the spokes might rattle on an
un-tied and un-soldered tangentially-spoked high-wheeler? Not a
rhetorical question, I really don't know.

Knowing that these wheels were not capable of high tension, they
having so many (some with 72) spokes, cross lacing could make them
contact as I said about a loosely spoked wheel on which I heard spokes
rattle. Just the same, it seems that cause and effect are getting
mixed in that cross lacing spokes was not done for any structural
purpose as is shown by the many high-wheelers that used radial spokes.

That was made more clear by modern 700c rear wheels that were spoked
radially and worked well for the time they were in use. I suspect
flange failure would have been their downfall in the long run.

Jobst Brandt