Sudden weight drops?

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
Put 1 tbs.

Quoted message said:

of mayo' on the burger and enjoyed it,

At first I read that as put one POUND of mayo on the burger and enjoyed
it :-)

--
Saffire
205/137/125
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

JC Der Koenig said:

You ate less and exercised more?

<lol> True, but 8 lbs. in three days?
That's not realistic.

Are you a pre-menopausal woman? Cyclical water retention can mask weight
loss until the retained water is shed. Then, it looks like one lost a
bunch of weight all at once when what really happened was that the weight
loss was going on the whole time.

Martha

--
Sig pending

In article <[email hidden]>,

Doug Freyburger said:

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Wierd stuff.
For nearly 2 months now I've been stuck at around 233 to 235 ...
Weighed in Friday at 233....... weighed in today at 225!

That's a whoosh. Happens to lots of folks.

So I gather, thanks! ;-)

I do have a diuretic that I take as needed so was wondering why, even
with Torosemide, my body was hanging on to water weight!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Calories still running at 800 to 1,000.

That low you *must* be losing fat and/or lean. But the scale
reads more than just fat and lean. It reads everything with
mass. Get constipated, don't drop scale pounds. Retain
water, for example by starting a new exercise program, don't
drop scale pounds. One way or the other you were retaining
water for a while and then your body decided to let go of the
extra water.

I upped the daily gym workout from 3 days per week to 5 days per week,
and every workout starts with 25 minutes on the lifecycle. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The only thing I really changed
diet-wise was to up the fat a bit in exchange for lowering protien.

Now there's a bingo. It's a basic of low carb fat loss. For
the same total calories, more fat and less protein means better
fat loss. It's true as long as you don't drop below your
minimum daily protein to trigger a stall. It's true even if
you drop below your minimum for a couple of weeks before your
body tries to stall. And it's true if your total calories are
so low your body can't stall even if it tries which is what I
suspect your current situation is.

Forcing my body off of the stall......
It was getting pretty frustrating to say the least!
Funny tho', I could feel my clothing getting looser (especially my gym
clothes which were tight and now they are not) so I figured something
was going on. The scale staying steady was just ticking me off.

I have a $200.00 wager to win! :-P

Quoted message said:

Here's the chemistry behind how trading more fat for less
protein at the same total calories works.

Insulin above some level blocks fat from moving out of
storage. Below some level less insulin doesn't block so
even less insulin still has no further efect. Insulin is
released in direct response to dietary carbs. Eat less
carbs to get into ketosis and the blocking factor of
insulin goes away. Eat less carbs below that and the
body simply manufactures its own blood glucose. The
difference of less carbs goes from making a big difference
in and out of ketosis to merely suggesting fewer total
calories.

Glucagon above some level moves fat out of storage. Below
some level there isn't enough glucagon to move much fat
out of storage but the body leaks some minimum amount
anyways (lowfat plans use this as a metabolic loophole).
Above some level the more glucagon in the blood the more
fat flows out of storage. Glucagon is released in indirect
response to dietary fat. Eat more fat and the result is
more glucagon that removes even more fat from storage.
Since eating more fat is often also eating more total
calories eating more fat shows diminishing returns unless
there's also a matching decrease in protein to keep total
calories from going up. That's exactly what Om did.

Seems pretty much that way. When I eat more fat, I do eat less
protein to balance out the calories. I've done fat fasts a few
times, but find them to be no more effective than, say, a
60/40 or 70/30 balance fat to protein and I feel better when I do that
instead.

Fat fasts suck. :-P

Quoted message said:

So the best fat loss is found by moving carbs up to
just barely in ketosis, moving protein down to your
minimum, and filling in the rest of your calories with
fat. As long as you're within a reasonable total calories,
more dietary fat does pull even more stored fat out. Do
all this and your food will be more greasy than most like,
so its a lot of work. It is great at busting stalls the
times folks have tried it on my advice. I've used it
myself to drive my own loss.

Celery and mayo.
Cream cheese and sugar free jello.
Cream cheese by itself with splenda or picante sauce.
Red leaf lettuce with lots of mayo.

All kinds of ways to up the fat but it gets tedious!
I'd rather eat meat! ;-d

Quoted message said:

I'll offer my own numbers to see how I calculate this.
All numbers rounded for convenience and to take into
account the inaccuracy of counts:

My ideal weight using body fat percentages is in the
170-175 range. Using a common total calorie guideline I
should eat around 1750 calories per day.

I fall out of ketosis at about 55 grams total, 45 net.
So my best carb intake is 50 grams total or 200 calories.
That leaves 1750-200=1550 calories from protein and fat.

According to the chapter on minimim protein in Protein
Power my daily minimum protein is 77 grams or 300 calories.
That leaves 1550-300=1250 calories from fat.

Since fat is 9 calories per gram, I should eat 1250/9=140
grams of fat daily.

So for me my gram levels for the best loss of fat with the
least loss of lean will be 50 grams total carb (40ish net),
77 grams protein, and 140 grams of fat. That's very greasy
eating so it is a lot of work to maintain it. But it's
also completely risk free.

If I happen to eat 100ish grams of protein and 125 grams
of fat for the same total calories, the glucagon released
is a bit less so fat loss would be a bit less, but the
food would be less greasy and easier to handle. At 125ish
protein and 115 fat even easier and again slightly less
loss. I could take this all the way to 200 grams of
protein and 80 grams of fat to qualify as both low carb
and moderately low fat. The result would be even less
glucagon released and even less fat withdrawn from storage.
At that level of protein much of the excess would be
converted to carbs so I'd also need to trim carbs to stay
in ketosis. But is lean jerky actually a vegitable
because its excess protein gets converted to carbs ;^)

My illustration above is why Dr Atkins warns against
combining low fat with low carb. His statement in the
chapter on Induction is that it will derail your loss.
The reason is the hormone glucagon. Glucagon drives
fat withdrawal and dietary fat drives glucagon.

Addressing the obvious - Overeat fat and you can overwhelm
this more-fat-more-loss trend. It's only true within
reasonable total calorie ranges. Going to 200 grams of
fat will only work for someone who's very large in lean
mass.

I think Om can increase his/her total calories using this
method and see better loss. Whether it's worth the extra
effort is a different story. Om, are you doing well
enough that extra effort is just extra work?

I seem to be happier at fewer calories since, as you said, eating
that way is a lot of work and the thought of a high fat meal just
makes me gag sometimes! :-P I'm going to go with this for awhile
and see what happens. I have done the fat fasts and after a
couple of days of that, I'd almost rather not eat at all!

Upping the physical activity I'm sure is also helping.

Thanks for the above! It was very informative!
I have to stay under 20 grams of carbs per day or I lose ketosis,
even tho' I am on Metformin.

Cheers!
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

Well, with a 60/40 fat to protein ratio, 600 calories of fat and 400
calories of protein works most of the time... but those numbers are not
exact, especially if I don't eat enough.

I try......

Like today, all I've had to eat is a 4 oz. beef patty and one chicken
drumstick. I need to kick up the fat so am taking a container of cream
cheese and jello to work for dinner. 3 oz. of cream cheese (300
calories) mixed in with sugar free cherry jello, probably about 4 oz.

I'm also making myself eat a couple of oz. of string cheese before I hit
the shower. That will be "it" for todays' eating unless I decide to nosh
a couple more oz. of string cheese at work, if I get time, and if I get
hungry!

That jello/cream cheese combo is pretty filling and kills my appetite.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bev-Ann said:

Yeah, that's about the protein I average but at 800 to 1000 calories/day, I
doubt she's getting that much. Sorry for getting the gender wrong. For
some reason I read the OP as a "he". :-)

on Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:07:06 GMT, "FOB" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

There's plenty of room for protein, 100 grams is only 400 calories. THe OP
is a she and shouldn't need more than that.

-----
Bev

--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Martha Gallagher said:

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

JC Der Koenig said:

You ate less and exercised more?

<lol> True, but 8 lbs. in three days?
That's not realistic.

Are you a pre-menopausal woman? Cyclical water retention can mask weight
loss until the retained water is shed. Then, it looks like one lost a
bunch of weight all at once when what really happened was that the weight
loss was going on the whole time.

Martha

I'm 43 and still having regular menses.

I did just "start" yesterday so that might have helped with the "whoosh".
I have hypothyroidism as well and THAT causes chronic fluid retention,
which is why I was kinda discounting that at first. I have an Rx for
Torosemide to be taken as needed. That stuff can flush 3 lbs. of water
out of me in about 5 hours so I have to be careful with it. I don't use
it daily, maybe 2 or 3 times per week.

Might have finally burned out some muscle glycogen and dropped more
water that way. :-)
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

In article <[email hidden]>,

Saffire said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
Put 1 tbs.

Quoted message said:

of mayo' on the burger and enjoyed it,

At first I read that as put one POUND of mayo on the burger and enjoyed
it :-)

<lol> That's make ANYone barf!!!!! ;-D
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

I really loved my lunch today. Two very fresh, fried free-range
burgers topped with sharp cheddar cheese and bacon.

I'm still not tired of bacon.

Anyone tried bacon burgers topped with eggs?

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Saffire said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
Put 1 tbs.

Quoted message said:

of mayo' on the burger and enjoyed it,

At first I read that as put one POUND of mayo on the burger and enjoyed
it :-)

<lol> That's make ANYone barf!!!!! ;-D
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And if a fat fast kills your appetite, that's a good thing, mostly.

10:1 says she won't get it.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I really loved my lunch today. Two very fresh, fried free-range
burgers topped with sharp cheddar cheese and bacon.

I'm still not tired of bacon.

Anyone tried bacon burgers topped with eggs?

Bacon has gotten to be too salty for me.
I've been doing low sodium for so long,
I've lost my taste for very salty foods.

Don't forget to add avocado to the above!
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

In article <[email hidden]>,

JC Der Koenig said:

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And if a fat fast kills your appetite, that's a good thing, mostly.

10:1 says she won't get it.

No, YOU don't get it! :-P

When making myself fat fast, I may not consume the "required" 1,000 Kc
per day because the thought of eating that much fat sometimes makes me
gag and I'll just skip the meal......
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
:: In article <[email hidden]>,
:: "JC Der Koenig" <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
::: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
::: news:[email hidden]...
::::
:::: And if a fat fast kills your appetite, that's a good thing, mostly.
::::
:::
::: 10:1 says she won't get it.
:::
:::
::
:: No, YOU don't get it! :-P
::
:: When making myself fat fast, I may not consume the "required" 1,000
:: Kc
:: per day because the thought of eating that much fat sometimes makes
:: me
:: gag and I'll just skip the meal......

Honey, 1000 kcals of fat is not that much food. Would you have a problem
eating a jar of macadamia nuts over the course of a day?

Get control over your thoughts....don't let outdated notions derail you.

"OmManiPadmeOmelet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

JC Der Koenig said:

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And if a fat fast kills your appetite, that's a good thing, mostly.

10:1 says she won't get it.

No, YOU don't get it! :-P

When making myself fat fast, I may not consume the "required" 1,000 Kc
per day because the thought of eating that much fat sometimes makes me
gag and I'll just skip the meal......

No, YOU don't get it!

It's absolutely fine to miss a meal sometimes, and you certainly don't look
like you've missed many.

FOB said:

I don't much care for mayo either, I have been using Ranch Dressing which I
do like instead in things like tuna salad and devilled eggs. Slightly more
carbs, FitDay says 6/cup for mayo and 10/cup for Hidden Valley Ranch. Not
that you would use a whole cup, but you need a large quantity to get a
significant difference.

I prefer Hidden Valley Ranch to mayo myself, but the problem I have
using it is the sugar.

I'm still trying to figure out how to make my own with no sugar, but it
tastes as nasty as Kraft's interpretation.

Even if Hidden Valley had a "sugar free" variety available, I probably
wouldn't use it. Most of the "sugar free" stuff I find is so darned
sweet I can't eat it.

There can't be much sugar in it if the carbs are that low.

In news:[email hidden],
Bailey's Girl <.@.> stated
| FOB wrote:
|| I don't much care for mayo either, I have been using Ranch Dressing
|| which I do like instead in things like tuna salad and devilled eggs.
|| Slightly more carbs, FitDay says 6/cup for mayo and 10/cup for
|| Hidden Valley Ranch. Not that you would use a whole cup, but you
|| need a large quantity to get a significant difference.
|
| I prefer Hidden Valley Ranch to mayo myself, but the problem I have
| using it is the sugar.
|
| I'm still trying to figure out how to make my own with no sugar, but
| it tastes as nasty as Kraft's interpretation.
|
| Even if Hidden Valley had a "sugar free" variety available, I probably
| wouldn't use it. Most of the "sugar free" stuff I find is so darned
| sweet I can't eat it.

FOB said:

There can't be much sugar in it if the carbs are that low.

However much it is, it's enough. Of course, YMMV.

Quoted message said:

In news:[email hidden],
Bailey's Girl <.@.> stated
| FOB wrote:
|| I don't much care for mayo either, I have been using Ranch Dressing
|| which I do like instead in things like tuna salad and devilled eggs.
|| Slightly more carbs, FitDay says 6/cup for mayo and 10/cup for
|| Hidden Valley Ranch. Not that you would use a whole cup, but you
|| need a large quantity to get a significant difference.
|
| I prefer Hidden Valley Ranch to mayo myself, but the problem I have
| using it is the sugar.
|
| I'm still trying to figure out how to make my own with no sugar, but
| it tastes as nasty as Kraft's interpretation.
|
| Even if Hidden Valley had a "sugar free" variety available, I probably
| wouldn't use it. Most of the "sugar free" stuff I find is so darned
| sweet I can't eat it.

FOB said:

I don't much care for mayo either, I have been using Ranch Dressing which I
do like instead in things like tuna salad and devilled eggs. Slightly more
carbs, FitDay says 6/cup for mayo and 10/cup for Hidden Valley Ranch. Not
that you would use a whole cup, but you need a large quantity to get a
significant difference.

Once it's in something like tuna, mayo isn't a problem for
me. My dislike for it is pretty mild. Thanks for the
suggestion to improve it by using ranch instead.

I do prefer sour cream in my tuna salad. For that matter
I like canned salmon even better than tuna - salmon, sour
cream, a dash of some herb, maybe a bit of dill relish,
very yum. Wrapped in lettuce leaves with some tomato
slices and a dash of red wine vinegar, ultra yum.

Doug Freyburger wrote:

:: I do prefer sour cream in my tuna salad. For that matter
:: I like canned salmon even better than tuna - salmon, sour
:: cream, a dash of some herb, maybe a bit of dill relish,
:: very yum. Wrapped in lettuce leaves with some tomato
:: slices and a dash of red wine vinegar, ultra yum.

Okay...that's a use for sour cream that I hadn't thought of....

I used to make a salmon pasta salad, this week I changed it to adapt to low
carb--canned salmon, chopped celery, Vidalia onion, black olives, lemon
juice and olive oil dressing. Spread it over chopped up Romaine lettuce.

In news:[email hidden],
Doug Freyburger <[email hidden]> stated
| FOB wrote:
||
|| I don't much care for mayo either, I have been using Ranch Dressing
|| which I do like instead in things like tuna salad and devilled eggs.
|| Slightly more carbs, FitDay says 6/cup for mayo and 10/cup for
|| Hidden Valley Ranch. Not that you would use a whole cup, but you
|| need a large quantity to get a significant difference.
|
| Once it's in something like tuna, mayo isn't a problem for
| me. My dislike for it is pretty mild. Thanks for the
| suggestion to improve it by using ranch instead.
|
| I do prefer sour cream in my tuna salad. For that matter
| I like canned salmon even better than tuna - salmon, sour
| cream, a dash of some herb, maybe a bit of dill relish,
| very yum. Wrapped in lettuce leaves with some tomato
| slices and a dash of red wine vinegar, ultra yum.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Roger Zoul said:

OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
:: In article <[email hidden]>,
:: "JC Der Koenig" <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
::: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
::: news:[email hidden]...
::::
:::: And if a fat fast kills your appetite, that's a good thing, mostly.
::::
:::
::: 10:1 says she won't get it.
:::
:::
::
:: No, YOU don't get it! :-P
::
:: When making myself fat fast, I may not consume the "required" 1,000
:: Kc
:: per day because the thought of eating that much fat sometimes makes
:: me
:: gag and I'll just skip the meal......

Honey, 1000 kcals of fat is not that much food. Would you have a problem
eating a jar of macadamia nuts over the course of a day?

Actually, yes...
I've eaten so many Macadamia nuts in the past year, I'm SICK of 'em!
I used to love them.

Same goes for Cream cheese... I can flavor it with other things so it's
not so bad, but.......

Quoted message said:

Get control over your thoughts....don't let outdated notions derail you.

It's not outdated notions luv. It's the gag reflex. :-P

Quoted message said:

--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

In article <[email hidden]>,

FOB said:

I don't much care for mayo either, I have been using Ranch Dressing which I
do like instead in things like tuna salad and devilled eggs. Slightly more
carbs, FitDay says 6/cup for mayo and 10/cup for Hidden Valley Ranch. Not
that you would use a whole cup, but you need a large quantity to get a
significant difference.

You can also make your own Ranch dressing using full fat sour cream and
the dry Hidden Valley Ranch packets. Since they are so salty, I use
about 1/2 of what is called for so it's milder and still very good.
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson